druid nerf was wierd

Play Mode Discussion
01/09/2019 07:38 AMPosted by TheRiddler
They really need some early game tools next expansion, for sure.


Understatement of 2019 ... and we're only 9 days into it. ;)

then what's the point of ramping? you sacrifice a turns play for mana advantage


Exactly. People whining about a UI on turn 6 or 7 (it NEVER came on 5) generally like to ignore the fact that the Druid player is doing nothing but ramping and Hero Power for the first 5 turns of the game ... giving them a huge window of opportunity to do anything they want. "Boo hoo hoo ... I built up a huge board of minions and did over 20 damage ... but the Druid cast UI on turn 7...!" What a bunch of pathetic babies.

But the data showed it was broken. Stop being so emotional.
01/09/2019 07:38 AMPosted by TheRiddler
...

Understatement of 2019 ... and we're only 9 days into it. ;)

...

Exactly. People whining about a UI on turn 6 or 7 (it NEVER came on 5) generally like to ignore the fact that the Druid player is doing nothing but ramping and Hero Power for the first 5 turns of the game ... giving them a huge window of opportunity to do anything they want. "Boo hoo hoo ... I built up a huge board of minions and did over 20 damage ... but the Druid cast UI on turn 7...!" What a bunch of pathetic babies.

But the data showed it was broken. Stop being so emotional.


Not an expert, but I remember a lot of posts showing data that Druid decks didnt actually have obscene win rates or huge meta presence. The problems with them broke down to:

Didn't know which of three you were playing against.
Solitaire decks that weren't fun to play against.
01/09/2019 07:38 AMPosted by TheRiddler
...

Understatement of 2019 ... and we're only 9 days into it. ;)

...

Exactly. People whining about a UI on turn 6 or 7 (it NEVER came on 5) generally like to ignore the fact that the Druid player is doing nothing but ramping and Hero Power for the first 5 turns of the game ... giving them a huge window of opportunity to do anything they want. "Boo hoo hoo ... I built up a huge board of minions and did over 20 damage ... but the Druid cast UI on turn 7...!" What a bunch of pathetic babies.

But the data showed it was broken. Stop being so emotional.

Riddler's right tho. The data didn't back up players claiming druid was broken.

Just like Shudderwock, it was touched due to excessive amount of player requests. Not because it was 'overbearingly strong', 'unbeatable'.

Now, do I think druid shouldn't have been nerfed? No. Do I think they overdid it? Yes.
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But the data showed it was broken. Stop being so emotional.

Riddler's right tho. The data didn't back up players claiming druid was broken.

Just like Shudderwock, it was touched due to excessive amount of player requests. Not because it was 'overbearingly strong', 'unbeatable'.

Now, do I think druid shouldn't have been nerfed? No. Do I think they overdid it? Yes.

The VS data showed balanced win rates because it doesn't take MMR into account. When rank 15 players were magically hitting legend with druid and play against much better players, then of course their win rate was close to 50% That's why in every single meta since VS has shown reports, every broken deck is close to 50%. That is exactly the point of an MMR matchmaking system. Blizzard's data takes MMR into account, which showed Druid to be the cheat codes of the game, so they nerfed them hard.
Biology Project and Greddy Spite will see more action maybe? Greedy Spite is better then Wild Growth I mean 3 mana to Draw a card is still pretty Awful...
01/10/2019 06:54 AMPosted by SlimReaper
Biology Project and Greddy Spite will see more action maybe? Greedy Spite is better then Wild Growth I mean 3 mana to Draw a card is still pretty Awful...

My guess is they're going to put more Mana crystals on a stick in coming expacs.

I just hope it isn't more of this " for both players" nonsense.

Druid lacks the control tools to give your opponent the advantage (e.g. Avianna) of your play first.
01/10/2019 06:54 AMPosted by SlimReaper
Biology Project and Greddy Spite will see more action maybe? Greedy Spite is better then Wild Growth I mean 3 mana to Draw a card is still pretty Awful...


Wild growth even when used before turn 10. 3 mana to gain one empty mana crystal is pretty bad too.

Druid really lacks early game cards so even if you play wild growth to ramp lets say on turn 4/5 the remaining 2 mana that you have left you really can't do anything with it. Playing wild growth on turn 5 is like gain one empty mana crystal and do a hero power maybe.

3 mana draw a card is worse.
any nerf to basic or classic set shows how dead blizzard is.
next expansion has to bring some new ramp or very powerful early game for druid as witchwood and boomsday were awful expansions for druid or else bye bye druid for a long time
agreed, they should have nerfed the armor generation and the draw a bit; not destroy them, just tone it down
01/10/2019 08:37 AMPosted by RhokDelar
agreed, they should have nerfed the armor generation and the draw a bit; not destroy them, just tone it down


also probably hydronox to 10 mana
01/10/2019 08:40 AMPosted by rjn
01/10/2019 08:37 AMPosted by RhokDelar
agreed, they should have nerfed the armor generation and the draw a bit; not destroy them, just tone it down


also probably hydronox to 10 mana

hadronox at 9 is kind ok, maybe removing the beast tag from it so it couldn't have been continuously played

either that or a carnivorous cube fix that makes the minions it spawn be silenced
01/10/2019 06:42 AMPosted by NiXDart
The VS data showed balanced win rates because it doesn't take MMR into account. When rank 15 players were magically hitting legend with druid and play against much better players, then of course their win rate was close to 50% That's why in every single meta since VS has shown reports, every broken deck is close to 50%. That is exactly the point of an MMR matchmaking system. Blizzard's data takes MMR into account, which showed Druid to be the cheat codes of the game, so they nerfed them hard.
What? None of those claims check out.

When Midrange Shaman was dramatically overpowered and uncontested in 2016, the VS data showed it. When Druid was overpowered right after KFT, the VS data showed it. When Cubelock was overpowered in Witchwood, and Quest Rogue was more lopsided than ever, the VS data showed it.

And you're claiming that Druid being overpowered magically evaded detection in the recent metagame?

Your claim about Druid decks being "easy mode" is also dubious, because many of them were recognized as legitimately difficult decks to play optimally. Maly and Token Druid, for example, were among the most dynamic and skill-testing decks around.

I can see the argument for nerfing something in Druid, just because the traditional drawback of ramping, and the Druid's traditional weakness against wide boards, were essentially gone. However, notice that those 2 statements implicate KFT cards. Nerfing essential cards in the Druid Basic/Classic set is just another step in that direction that I really don't like.
01/10/2019 08:49 AMPosted by RhokDelar
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also probably hydronox to 10 mana

hadronox at 9 is kind ok, maybe removing the beast tag from it so it couldn't have been continuously played

either that or a carnivorous cube fix that makes the minions it spawn be silenced


hydro to 10 would have been a perfect nerf so that you couldnt immediately kill it. it would be possible to silence it but that removal of beast tag could work too.
01/10/2019 07:34 AMPosted by RinseWizard
01/10/2019 06:54 AMPosted by SlimReaper
Biology Project and Greddy Spite will see more action maybe? Greedy Spite is better then Wild Growth I mean 3 mana to Draw a card is still pretty Awful...

My guess is they're going to put more Mana crystals on a stick in coming expacs.

I just hope it isn't more of this " for both players" nonsense.

Druid lacks the control tools to give your opponent the advantage (e.g. Avianna) of your play first.


I doubt they nerfed the class because of upcoming card releases. While it's true that Druid occasionally gets mana ramp with a few of their expanion minions, even if there are some coming up I don't think the nerf accounts for that. Team 5 just caved in under the pressure from the public outcry NERF DROOD!!! The class had been using the same shell since KoFT and people were sick of it.

The problem is, the real power level was from all the expansion cards. When April comes they'll lose UI, Branching paths, ferocious howl, and the oaken summons package. The card draw is just going to vanish. They'll also lose spreading plague and Malfurion too so their ability to stablize an early wide board will go out the window again.

Before UI Druids ramp was a dual sided sword. You give up card advantage to gain mana advantage. UI all by itself completelty negates that by giving mana AND card advantage and at the same time armor, removal and board presense to boot. It's really that stupidly broken. With all the losses ramp will go back to being what it was before, and big druid was never oppressively rampant at any time. Strong yes, oppressive no. Now with the ramp tools nerfed to crap the class is left with what? It's looking to literally be the weakest class after rotation because its core identity is gone now.
It was a knee jerk reaction that currently doesn't destroy the class just slows them down. When rotation comes that is when these nerfs will really hurt druid. The class was designed with Ramp in mind while having little board control. Once that is all gone and they are left with virtually no ramp the class will need to be propped up yet again by OP expansion cards or it will be nonexistent.
01/09/2019 06:53 AMPosted by HailFall
maybe blizzard realized that ramping into ui on turn 5 is broken?


Right, because UI is just the model of balance and fair gameplay on turn 6+?
I just hope it isn't more of this " for both players" nonsense.

Agreed. Cards that help the other player first are trash.

Avianna Dustloser is the worst card in the entire game. Period. Full stop.

Forest Guide is a lousy stat body with a lousy ability pegged to it.

Biology Project is only usable in a deck like Miracle Druid when you don't care that you are amping up your opponent's mana before your own. In anything other deck it's garbage. And notice that - as awful as it is - BP is the MOST USABLE of the "Help Your Opponent Win First" cards because it at least gives the Druid one lousy crystal to use before their opponent can use theirs...

Please - Team 5 - PLEASE do not saddle Druids with any more of these terribad "Help Your Opponent Win First" cards. Someone(s) on your team thought these were a good idea to give to Druids because no other class has been plagued with this nonsense. Whatever person believed the concept was good for Druids should be staked on an anthill and basted with honey.
lets hope druid get some ramp and good cards next expansion and play mech'cthun right now lol
01/10/2019 09:35 AMPosted by ilikeeggs
01/10/2019 06:42 AMPosted by NiXDart
The VS data showed balanced win rates because it doesn't take MMR into account. When rank 15 players were magically hitting legend with druid and play against much better players, then of course their win rate was close to 50% That's why in every single meta since VS has shown reports, every broken deck is close to 50%. That is exactly the point of an MMR matchmaking system. Blizzard's data takes MMR into account, which showed Druid to be the cheat codes of the game, so they nerfed them hard.
What? None of those claims check out.

When Midrange Shaman was dramatically overpowered and uncontested in 2016, the VS data showed it. When Druid was overpowered right after KFT, the VS data showed it. When Cubelock was overpowered in Witchwood, and Quest Rogue was more lopsided than ever, the VS data showed it.

And you're claiming that Druid being overpowered magically evaded detection in the recent metagame?

Your claim about Druid decks being "easy mode" is also dubious, because many of them were recognized as legitimately difficult decks to play optimally. Maly and Token Druid, for example, were among the most dynamic and skill-testing decks around.

I can see the argument for nerfing something in Druid, just because the traditional drawback of ramping, and the Druid's traditional weakness against wide boards, were essentially gone. However, notice that those 2 statements implicate KFT cards. Nerfing essential cards in the Druid Basic/Classic set is just another step in that direction that I really don't like.

Undertaker Hunter, the poster boy of broken decks, had a win rate between 55% to 57% at its peak. Broken decks never look that broken in terms of win rate, because all win rates are pushed towards 50% due to the way a ladder works. As you rank up, you play better players until you are at a point where you no longer rank up because your evenly matched opponents keep you at a 50% win rate. I'm sorry you can't comprehend this, but I don't know how else to explain that.

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