Diversity of Representation in Card Art?

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01/20/2019 09:46 PMPosted by Beaky
Curious if you have an example of a good game that was undermined by an overly aggressive social agenda?

most recent example I can think would be the new world war 2 based battlefield game, it had a female soldier lead on the main artwork and cinematic trailer and saw lots of backlash.

ea chief design officer said “If You Don’t Like it, Don’t Buy it” he stepped down from his position a few weeks later, sales are half what the last game did

edit: someone suggested a great idea on the topic, that maybe female solders could exist in the form of elite Russian snipers that did exist in ww2, but na they want her in the thick of things with the rest of the "guys"

random but I think they aren't allowed to use the swastika too.
A female soldier in WWII doesn't make much sense, unless we're talking eastern front in the European theatre and, even then, I think it was only the Russians that deployed female troops; the Germans were so terrified of deploying their women that they used slave labour for building their military equipment ather than employing their women. Make no mistake, it was an extreme lack of respect for human life, not some esoteric sense of justice, that had Russian women on the front; a body was a body.

Given the gaming community's long and illustrious history, this clearly wasn't what had the majority of people upset, but hey, what can you do...
01/20/2019 09:56 PMPosted by Tari
edit: someone suggested a great idea on the topic, that maybe female solders could exist in the form of elite Russian snipers that did exist in ww2, but na they want her in the thick of things with the rest of the "guys"

Female shock units absolutely existed. And trust me, they were just as untrained and disposable as the males. If we're talking eastern front, there is nothing wrong with a female main character.
01/20/2019 09:46 PMPosted by Beaky
01/20/2019 09:26 PMPosted by Tari
as a whole building a game around real world issues, representation etc has shown to produce politically correct garbage

Curious if you have an example of a good game that was undermined by an overly aggressive social agenda?


Wolfenstein: the New Colossus.
Battlefield V.
Mass Effect Andromeda.
Overwatch is more than likely being dragged into this, especially after Overwatch Ellie.
You will have to be far more specific on all of your examples. Andromeda is the only one I'm familiar with and my understanding is that the primary issue with the game was that it was shipped half-finished and, now that it's been patched to bring it to a fully functional state, it's a reasonable entry into the franchise.

Simply listing names doesn't help much.
01/20/2019 10:06 PMPosted by Beaky
01/20/2019 09:56 PMPosted by Tari
edit: someone suggested a great idea on the topic, that maybe female solders could exist in the form of elite Russian snipers that did exist in ww2, but na they want her in the thick of things with the rest of the "guys"

Female shock units absolutely existed. And trust me, they were just as untrained and disposable as the males. If we're talking eastern front, there is nothing wrong with a female main character.


EA rewrote history and disrespected a whole regiment of norwegian soldiers, by erasing them and replacing them with a mother and a daughter that made their mission for them.

Of course, Female Soldiers exist - The Nachthexen (Night Witches) group of pilots and Lady Death being some of the examples, but I'm guessing the lack of bionic limbs and katanas being involved got them dismissed.

01/20/2019 09:46 PMPosted by Beaky
01/20/2019 09:26 PMPosted by Tari
as a whole building a game around real world issues, representation etc has shown to produce politically correct garbage

Curious if you have an example of a good game that was undermined by an overly aggressive social agenda?

Not looking far away, Overwatch is a good example.

Sexuality in a game is not unheard of, but it has to serve a purpose other than confirming "Ermagawd, I knew he/she/it was LGBTQXR!".

It is not good story telling and does not serve a purpose at all.

The fact that one of the latest victims, Soldier: 76 (A personal creation of Chris Matzen that is... over 20 years old? he made him as personal comic book character.) was one of those hit, because he would create the maximum amount of ripples in the media is just.. what.

And now, the community that asked for this is asking again which other character will turn out to be a member of the LGBTQ, give them a hand and they take the whole arm and even more.
The problem is that these types ofoalways people always ask never do anything themselves

They always !@#$% about what companies /goverment etc. Should do

But they never do anything of value but "demanding" stuff by themselves

So they want basically to force thongs instead of compete

That why i cannot respect them a lot

Why dont you put your energy in creating enterprises that work like you want other enterprises to work

Why dont you create games, films , books etc. According to your ideas

When they go on about changing history its the worst, its basically ehat Hitler/Stalin/ Mao would have done
she sounds British and also has a bionic arm and is able to run around after being shot in the shoulder so not really sure where that would put her in WW2 other than maybe none existent?

I probably don't make a great case for battlefield, I did vote with my wallet so never actually played but lengthy videos exist on youtube debating the ins and outs of things.

the gist I got Dice/EA wanted to appeal to a broader(female)audience and end up alienating their existing, that part they succeeded in with a 60% dislike on the release trailer.

but point about the sniper thing was maybe it was just down to their delivery?
guess also telling your customers to "not buy it" is always bad move too.

anyway more titles, dreamfall chapters supposedly has an agenda, it is filled with almost nothing but strong female characters and mixed races with every antagonist being a white male.
01/20/2019 10:48 PMPosted by Beaky
You will have to be far more specific on all of your examples. Andromeda is the only one I'm familiar with and my understanding is that the primary issue with the game was that it was shipped half-finished and, now that it's been patched to bring it to a fully functional state, it's a reasonable entry into the franchise.

Simply listing names doesn't help much.


Wolfenstein: the New Colossus, had marketing which was throwing around punching !@#$s in the face. I like slaughtering %^-*s as well as anyone (I prefer mine extra crispy), but the whole marketing push came from a social justice mindset that has become hardset on believing in Godwin's Law. Also ringing hollow was how heavily they were championing socialistic values in the game. Having a pregnant woman, basically close to due date, mowing down !@#$s speaks more about how progressive you are rather than immersing you in gameplay. The politics weren't even subtle, they were repeatedly sucker punching you in the !%#*%#!% about it. It's kind of damning when Kingdom Come: Deliverance, which was based on being as authentic as possible , have sold triple the copies of Wolfenstein 2

Battlefield V - where do I start with this one?
-"If you don't like it don't buy it", in response to people who responded negatively to the game.
- The totally unrealistic portrayal of a woman with prosthetics serving on the battlefield, and basically ignoring actual contributions that women made in WWII (French Underground and the Night Witches especially).
- Inserting the mother/daughter storyline into the real-life Operation Gunnerside, which was critical from stopping the Germans from obtaining nuclear weapons
- Up front lying about the treatment French colonial soldiers when no segregation took place within French units.
- ResetEra basically shilling for the game and banning people pointing out the revisionism
The game has wound up costing Electronic Arts dearly in the stock market, and revenue projections for Electronic Arts have dropped for 2019 for the grand total of $350 million

Overwatch released their revelation of Soldier 76 coming out of the closet happened a few days after the Overwatch Ellie scandal, where it turned out that Ellie, a girl who apparently quit the Overwatch Competitors league citing doxxing and harrassment, turned out to be a man, and the whole thing was cited as a social experiment. This is the latest of misfires with the game and Blizzard in particular, with players losing interest in the game lacking multiple features
that every single other FPS/MOBA has (a scoreboard, for interest).
<span class="truncated">...</span>
Female shock units absolutely existed. And trust me, they were just as untrained and disposable as the males. If we're talking eastern front, there is nothing wrong with a female main character.


EA rewrote history and disrespected a whole regiment of norwegian soldiers, by erasing them and replacing them with a mother and a daughter that made their mission for them.

Of course, Female Soldiers exist - The Nachthexen (Night Witches) group of pilots and Lady Death being some of the examples, but I'm guessing the lack of bionic limbs and katanas being involved got them dismissed.

Okay... it's EA, so the game can't possibly be as entertaining as you are making it sound right now and I know that this was most definitely not your intent, but that sounds friggen hilarious and amazing. It's EA, so they would have bungled it somehow (probably by making it way too serious), but damn. XD

<span class="truncated">...</span>
Not looking far away, Overwatch is a good example.

Sexuality in a game is not unheard of, but it has to serve a purpose other than confirming "Ermagawd, I knew he/she/it was LGBTQXR!".

It is not good story telling and does not serve a purpose at all.

The fact that one of the latest victims, Soldier: 76 (A personal creation of Chris Matzen that is... over 20 years old? he made him as personal comic book character.) was one of those hit, because he would create the maximum amount of ripples in the media is just.. what.

And now, the community that asked for this is asking again which other character will turn out to be a member of the LGBTQ, give them a hand and they take the whole arm and even more.

I mean, does sexuality have to serve a storytelling purpose? Why is it a 'hit' to assign a sexuality (or specifically a non-!@#$%^ sexuality?) to a character?

Forgive my ignorance, but is there some facet of the character that isn't compatible with a non--*!@#$ sexuality? There very well could be, I know literally nothing about the character, but unless the character had been previously established as asexual, for example, I'm not seeing where an issue could arise.

01/20/2019 11:23 PMPosted by Tari
the gist I got Dice/EA wanted to appeal to a broader(female)audience and end up alienating their existing, that part they succeeded in with a 60% dislike on the release trailer.

Honestly, I kind of respect EA for that. Not because they gambled on a bid to pander for a different audience and lost, but because they actually tried something a little different. EA is probably one of the most mired and stagnant of the game developers and to see them do something a little bit different is a plus to me. I would have rather they tried something and succeeded, so they'd be more likely to try again in the future, but hey, one step at a time.

01/20/2019 10:48 PMPosted by Beaky
You will have to be far more specific on all of your examples. Andromeda is the only one I'm familiar with and my understanding is that the primary issue with the game was that it was shipped half-finished and, now that it's been patched to bring it to a fully functional state, it's a reasonable entry into the franchise.

Simply listing names doesn't help much.


Wolfenstein: the New Colossus, had marketing which was throwing around punching !@#$s in the face. I like slaughtering %^-*s as well as anyone (I prefer mine extra crispy), but the whole marketing push came from a social justice mindset that has become hardset on believing in Godwin's Law. Also ringing hollow was how heavily they were championing socialistic values in the game. Having a pregnant woman, basically close to due date, mowing down !@#$s speaks more about how progressive you are rather than immersing you in gameplay. The politics weren't even subtle, they were repeatedly sucker punching you in the !%#*%#!% about it. It's kind of damning when Kingdom Come: Deliverance, which was based on being as authentic as possible , have sold triple the copies of Wolfenstein 2

Battlefield V - where do I start with this one?
-"If you don't like it don't buy it", in response to people who responded negatively to the game.
- The totally unrealistic portrayal of a woman with prosthetics serving on the battlefield, and basically ignoring actual contributions that women made in WWII (French Underground and the Night Witches especially).
- Inserting the mother/daughter storyline into the real-life Operation Gunnerside, which was critical from stopping the Germans from obtaining nuclear weapons
- Up front lying about the treatment French colonial soldiers when no segregation took place within French units.
- ResetEra basically shilling for the game and banning people pointing out the revisionism
The game has wound up costing Electronic Arts dearly in the stock market, and revenue projections for Electronic Arts have dropped for 2019 for the grand total of $350 million

Overwatch released their revelation of Soldier 76 coming out of the closet happened a few days after the Overwatch Ellie scandal, where it turned out that Ellie, a girl who apparently quit the Overwatch Competitors league citing doxxing and harrassment, turned out to be a man, and the whole thing was cited as a social experiment. This is the latest of misfires with the game and Blizzard in particular, with players losing interest in the game lacking multiple features
that every single other FPS/MOBA has (a scoreboard, for interest).

This was a very interesting post. Thank you for your extremely high quality and detailed reply!
01/20/2019 11:04 PMPosted by OniEyes
01/20/2019 10:06 PMPosted by Beaky
...
Female shock units absolutely existed. And trust me, they were just as untrained and disposable as the males. If we're talking eastern front, there is nothing wrong with a female main character.


EA rewrote history and disrespected a whole regiment of norwegian soldiers, by erasing them and replacing them with a mother and a daughter that made their mission for them.

Of course, Female Soldiers exist - The Nachthexen (Night Witches) group of pilots and Lady Death being some of the examples, but I'm guessing the lack of bionic limbs and katanas being involved got them dismissed.

01/20/2019 09:46 PMPosted by Beaky
...
Curious if you have an example of a good game that was undermined by an overly aggressive social agenda?

Not looking far away, Overwatch is a good example.

Sexuality in a game is not unheard of, but it has to serve a purpose other than confirming "Ermagawd, I knew he/she/it was LGBTQXR!".

It is not good story telling and does not serve a purpose at all.

The fact that one of the latest victims, Soldier: 76 (A personal creation of Chris Matzen that is... over 20 years old? he made him as personal comic book character.) was one of those hit, because he would create the maximum amount of ripples in the media is just.. what.

And now, the community that asked for this is asking again which other character will turn out to be a member of the LGBTQ, give them a hand and they take the whole arm and even more.


Wait? What? Soldier: 76 is a victim? Because the latest comic confirms he has a boyfriend? Let's be real here. I cannot see any way in which that negatively impacts my enjoyment of the game. Personally, it doesn't really add anything to my enjoyment of the game, but that's a far cry from having a negative impact on the game. Heck, you wanna talk about things that negatively impacted Overwatch? The introduction of Brigette.

In fact, if you combine that with my personal hatred of Pharah, I believe you could make a strong case that canonically STRAIGHT characters (torb and ana, since, you know, their kids are in the game) have had their sexuality negatively impact the game by creating the two characters I would delete from the game in a heartbeat if I could.
As a game that millions of people play worldwide, does Hearthstone have a responsibility to consider race, gender and other types of representation with their card art?
01/21/2019 10:00 PMPosted by YourArtTeach
As a game that millions of people play worldwide, does Hearthstone have a responsibility to consider race, gender and other types of representation with their card art?


Does Hearthstone? Not really. Does gaming in general? Well, it's always a positive when there are a greater variety of stories/perspectives people can experience through games. On the other hand, creators have the right to tell the story that they wish to tell with their game.

And since Hearthstone in particular is simply the card game based off of World of Warcraft, I guess the answer would be that while it would be nice if the story leads on the World of Warcraft team crafted stories that included more diverse experiences, it is ultimately their game, and if they want to do things a certain way, that's their right.

Although, as an aside, I will note that if you were to ask me which two races in WoW are the most good, honorable, etc. I would reply that the Trolls and the Tauren are the type of people that we should all aspire to be.
01/21/2019 10:00 PMPosted by YourArtTeach
As a game that millions of people play worldwide, does Hearthstone have a responsibility to consider race, gender and other types of representation with their card art?


No, next question.
01/21/2019 11:05 PMPosted by Haunter187


No, next question.


When we get to the end of our lives, will we have asked questions like this one with enough compassion and grace in our heart to make the world a better place for others? How will we have contributed meaningfully to the betterment of those around us and the world? If we deny that our money and voice have that responsibility are we denying the kinder angels of our own destiny?
01/21/2019 11:08 PMPosted by YourArtTeach
When we get to the end of our lives, will we have asked questions like this one with enough compassion and grace in our heart to make the world a better place for others. How will we have contributed meaningfully to the betterment of those around us and the world? If we deny that our money and voice have that responsibility are we denying the kinder angels of our own destiny?
Good question. So why are you trolling in this thread, trying to antagonize people? I'd feel guilty about doing that instead of doing something productive, or something that would actually raise awareness for real social issues.
01/21/2019 10:00 PMPosted by YourArtTeach
As a game that millions of people play worldwide, does Hearthstone have a responsibility to consider race, gender and other types of representation with their card art?


Do they have the responsibility? Yes. Are they answerable to you? No.

I’d even go so far as to say that they did consider race/gender perhaps more than you give them credit for.

Consider:
01/19/2019 10:00 AMPosted by YourArtTeach

Every silver hand recruit being a white male is a choice. It seems strange to say that in our fantasy world every soldier is white and male. Why is that our fantasy?


Because Silver Hand Recruits are the embodiment of ‘disposable assets’. If Blizzard went out of their way to make them black then they would be making a significantly different statement.

As for gender, again, consider ‘disposable’. In the vast majority of cases where sexual dimorphism exists one gender is more expendable and takes on traits that can advance the species in kind.

Look at sexually reproducing plants for a telling example. The males are actually akin to individual pollen grains: millions produced, millions lost with only a bare few needed to carry on the genetic code.

In the animal kingdom, males are those with the widest spread of genetic variation; again, aiding the species by having better chances of mutations that are beneficial, and those mutations that aren’t beneficial can die off unbred.

The best chance you have of “equality in gender disposable-ness” would likely be in haploid species (think bees or ants) where males aren’t the ones to be spent in combat, but they turn out to be even more disposable. Any worker will sacrifice herself for her queen, as (seemingly paradoxically) the queen has a better percentage of passing on the worker’s genes than the worker herself has. And yet the drones are the first kicked out of the hive at any point of stress, as they are simply the most expendable.

So if you’re looking for diversity in gender: check out the Zerg.

tl,dr: if Silver Hand Recruits were anything other than white males, it would not only violate lore, but look as though Blizzard were intentionally saying “this race/gender/demographic is essentially disposable”. So in fact they may be evidence of the consideration already given.
What's the student loan debt for a useless art degree these days? Let's ask the depressed and attention-starved art teacher here escaping from his life of failure to the Hearthstone forums where he can pretend to be someone relevant. I bet he knows.
Last time I checked we didn't have Elves, Dwarves, Orcs, etc running around Earth. So given that this is a different world/universe/dimension, diversity is already present in the game with the various races.

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