Dragon Roar and Arena Discussion

Arena Discussion
*repost, I think I accidentally deleted this post and as discussing card balance is not against this forums TOS I doubt a forum mod deleted it. Thank you.*

Let’s chat about Dragon Roar and why, in its current state, is bad for arena, examine some statistics and answer some common counter-arguments as to why this card is fine for arena.

Dragon Roar
The new Warrior Class card Dragon Roar costs 2 mana and generates 2 random dragon cards from the current pool of available dragons.

Generally ‘discover’ or ‘generate’ type mechanics are balanced because the pool of available cards contains an even spread of terrible to great cards.

Unfortunately the dragon tribe (see statistics) is heavily geared towards average (or better) cards with a ratio of 18 to 7 (more than 2.5 times to 1!)

Dragons from Dragon Roar sorted by rank (HearthArena)
**average or higher (+50 rank)** 18 dragons
10 - Deathwing 12/12 - Discard hand, destroy all other minions - 110 rank
9 - Onyxia 8/8 Fill your board with 1/1 whelps - 92 rank
8 - Primordial Drake 4/8 Taunt. 2 damage all other minions - 91 rank
5 - Dragonmaw Scorcher 3/6 - 1 damage to all other minions - 87 rank
5 - Cobalt Scalebane 5/5 - 3 attack to friendly minion - 80 rank
9 - Ysera 4/12 - Dream card at end of turn - 80 rank
8 - Sindragosa 8/8 - Summon 2 0/1 frozen champions - 77 rank
7 - Nightscale Matriarch 4/9 - Summon 3/3 welp when friendly minion heal - 77
4 - Duskbreaker 3/3 - 3 damage to all enemies if holding a dragon - 70 rank
9 - Alexstraza 8/8 - Set player to 15 hp - 65 rank
4 - Twilight Drake 4/1 - 1 health for each card - 64 rank
6 - Bone Drake 6/5 - Deathrattle Add random dragon - 64 rank
2 - Faerie Dragon 3/22 - Spell immune - 61 rank
3 - Nightmare Amalgam 3/4 - All tribes - 60 rank
5 - Carrion Drake 3/7 - If minion died gain poison - 59 rank
5 - Emberscale Drake 5/5 - 5 armor if holding dragon - 57 rank
4 - Hoarding Dragon 5/6 - 2 coins for opponent - 54 rank
9 - Sleepy Dragon 4/12 - Taunt - 53 rank

**below average or lower (0 to 49 rank)** 7 dragons
9 - Malygos 4/12 - 5 spell damage - 46 rank
7 - Crowd Roaster 7/4 - 7 damage enemy minion if holding dragon - 44 rank
9 - Nozdormu 8/8 - 15 second turns - 38 rank
4 - Ebon Dragonsmith - 3/4 Reduce weapon cost by 2 - 32 rank
3 - Marsh Drake 5/4 - 2/1 Poison for opponent - 30 rank
10 - Emeriss 8/8 - Double attack and health of mininos in hand - 26 rank
7 - Temporus 6/6 - Opponent 2 turns then you 2 turns - 12 rank

Common Statements about Dragon Roar being “Fine for Arena”
“It’s a 2 mana, do nothing card.”

Arena is a value game and ‘Card-Generators’ like Dragon Roar are rarely (if ever) played on curve. These are usually late game fuel to provide an advantage as the match approaches top-decking. (Omega Assembly, Thought Steal, etc). The 2 mana “Do nothing” issue isn’t as relevant when players are at 10 mana.

“It’s RNG if you get a good dragon.”
As the chart shows, out of the 25 possible dragons from Dragon Roar, a whopping 18 are ranked average or higher with only 7 possible dragons being below average.
As an RNG card, Dragon Roar is insanely good value in arena.

“Good luck playing (dragon)”
Dragons generally have a high mana cost but as we established earlier, Dragon Roar, like other Card Generators, are generally late game fuel in arena and rarely played on curve.

As both players approach turn 10 and as hand sizes near top-decking, playing a high-value dragon like Ysera or Deathwing will often win the game by themselves.

Solutions
Cards should never be balanced for ‘arena’ as this impacts constructed play for which they have been designed.

The simplest solution to Dragon Roar is to remove it from the arena drafting pool (as Deathknights and MCT were).

I could go in to balance suggestions for the card (rarity, mana cost, etc) but as mentioned, this would impact constructed and we shouldn’t look at balancing this way around (Arena influencing Constructed).

What are your thoughts on Dragon Roar? Let me know your experiences with the card (in Arena). What’s it like to play it and play against it.

Thanks for your time!
Arena is not just a value game. Its sometimes a tempo game. While you 2 mana do nothing I hit your face and kill you before your dragons do something.
Think the card by itself is not that great, but because warrior can tank early tempo with their removals + default healing power, hide behind big taunts, or regain tempo with class cards like Militia, Dynomatic, Arathi, Bloodrazer, supported by neutral card pool, the value generation is optimal even at two mana. And to everyone saying turn 2, dragon roar, do you honestly think the only 2 drop they'd have is dragon roar, or if any good player would keep it in their opening hand without drafting any other 2 drops.

Banning it from arena would be dumb, just wait for new rotation.
01/13/2019 03:43 AMPosted by Shuyin
Arena is not just a value game. Its sometimes a tempo game. While you 2 mana do nothing I hit your face and kill you before your dragons do something.


I already established in my OP that any decent warrior will hold Dragon Roar until later turns and they can easily manage tempo with taunts and cards like war path.

On turn 10 playing Dragon Roar in to a dragon like Primordial Drake will likely wipe your 'tempo' play.

Assuming you aren't threatening lethal next turn, many of the other dragons threaten to clean-up any weak 'tempo' minions you have left and leave you top-decking against powerful dragons.
01/13/2019 04:06 AMPosted by Ropemaster
Think the card by itself is not that great, but because warrior can tank early tempo with their removals + default healing power, hide behind big taunts, or regain tempo with class cards like Militia, Dynomatic, Arathi, Bloodrazer, supported by neutral card pool, the value generation is optimal even at two mana.


Exactly. Decent warriors will easily weather out the early game tempo and hold Dragon Roar for later turns when they can generally play most dragons the same turn.

In close matches getting a dragon like Ysera or Deathwing are almost an instant-win unless the opponent top-decks removal.
01/13/2019 01:09 PMPosted by AyaBlackpaw
In close matches getting a dragon like Ysera or Deathwing are almost an instant-win unless the opponent top-decks removal.


See, this is the point. Your chances of getting Ysera or Deathwing after playing Dragon Roar is really really low. And the matchup might not be that close, for example if your opponent notices you are keeping a card for 10-15+ turns, anyone could suspect a card like Deathwing as one of the generated dragons. In which case, switch your play style accordingly. I found myself playing against warriors with 3 dragon roars, filling their hand with dragons, meanwhile I was bashing their face like !@#$. It is a pretty good card, but not broken. If their dragons aren’t played around the time they are generated, start considering what could they be, notice if the board seems good enough for a Primordial Drake or Dragonmaw Scorcher to enter the field, consider Deathwing, also Temporus who will probably end up being a dead card in their hand. Analyze which play is more likely to weaken the possible dragons they get and you’ll end up winning more games than you think you would.
01/13/2019 02:11 PMPosted by FireHades
01/13/2019 01:09 PMPosted by AyaBlackpaw
In close matches getting a dragon like Ysera or Deathwing are almost an instant-win unless the opponent top-decks removal.


See, this is the point. Your chances of getting Ysera or Deathwing after playing Dragon Roar is really really low. And the matchup might not be that close, for example if your opponent notices you are keeping a card for 10-15+ turns, anyone could suspect a card like Deathwing as one of the generated dragons. In which case, switch your play style accordingly. I found myself playing against warriors with 3 dragon roars, filling their hand with dragons, meanwhile I was bashing their face like !@#$. It is a pretty good card, but not broken. If their dragons aren’t played around the time they are generated, start considering what could they be, notice if the board seems good enough for a Primordial Drake or Dragonmaw Scorcher to enter the field, consider Deathwing, also Temporus who will probably end up being a dead card in their hand. Analyze which play is more likely to weaken the possible dragons they get and you’ll end up winning more games than you think you would.


Yeah it's not broken but it's an annoying win more randumb card. It's like a better version of cabalist tome, cheaper mana, good for late game. You can make the same stupid argument for getting 2 good cards to 2 bad cards, or saying hearthstone arena is still curvestone, but in the higher bracket wins, every deck you face is absurd and a late game greed deck and more cards = win more.

Just now I faced against a warrior with my tempo curve deck, I made it to 6 mana and he plays a gemstudded golem. He has 14 health, I trade some minions, remove his minion, he plays another taunt, repeat, then board clear, heals all the way back to 20, then board clear over and over, still playing around collider, warpath, still lose. I have 1 minion in hand, he has 3 from dragon roar and I'm out of fuel. And then there's that every other stupid game where a bad player just plays it instead of a minion, and he gets rewarded for getting 2 cards that win in the game without even thinking.
Yes its a good card yes. Yes I have lost to this card as well when opponent got deathwing from it in a completely lost position. I have also won against this card countless times. For example when opponent played 2 or 3 of them,maybe also copied them, and then managed to summon all of them in 1 turn with some card or minion, which gave him like 5 4/1 twilight drakes which was kinda hilarious "amazing".
I don't know,i think the card is fine. If people think warrior and dragon soul is so strong then they should play warrior themselves.
Warrior actually takes skill in arena to play,its fun to play and its different from the curve minion play and hope to kill opponent before he kills you.

Most tempo decks have lost by turn 10 anyway,if they are not close to killing the warrior. Warrior can draft heavy (lots of value) if they go for a control deck and if they make it to turn 10 they should usually win against tempo,just on value alone. They don't even need dragon roar for it.
01/13/2019 02:11 PMPosted by FireHades
01/13/2019 01:09 PMPosted by AyaBlackpaw
In close matches getting a dragon like Ysera or Deathwing are almost an instant-win unless the opponent top-decks removal.


See, this is the point. Your chances of getting Ysera or Deathwing after playing Dragon Roar is really really low. And the matchup might not be that close, for example if your opponent notices you are keeping a card for 10-15+ turns, anyone could suspect a card like Deathwing as one of the generated dragons. In which case, switch your play style accordingly. I found myself playing against warriors with 3 dragon roars, filling their hand with dragons, meanwhile I was bashing their face like !@#$. It is a pretty good card, but not broken. If their dragons aren’t played around the time they are generated, start considering what could they be, notice if the board seems good enough for a Primordial Drake or Dragonmaw Scorcher to enter the field, consider Deathwing, also Temporus who will probably end up being a dead card in their hand. Analyze which play is more likely to weaken the possible dragons they get and you’ll end up winning more games than you think you would.


Firstly, please use paragraphs. It helps people clearly read the points you're making as you're saying several points in a wall of text there.

You're making counter-points to issues I didn't bring up though. You talk about Warriors holding cards which I never brought up as I suggested they play them late and then play the dragons almost immediately.

Dragon Roar, played around turn 10, provides on average looking at the stats, a great advantage to Warriors in late-game arena.
01/13/2019 03:15 PMPosted by Ropemaster
Yeah it's not broken but it's an annoying win more randumb card. It's like a better version of cabalist tome, cheaper mana, good for late game.


This.

The issue with Dragon Roar, as I showed in my OP with the possible dragons it can generate is that has around a 75% chance of generating 'average' (or better) dragons on both draws.

The dragon tribe leans towards powerful cards and in arena, such a cheap 2 mana card simply provides too much value.
01/13/2019 05:42 PMPosted by Rassy
Most tempo decks have lost by turn 10 anyway,if they are not close to killing the warrior. Warrior can draft heavy (lots of value) if they go for a control deck and if they make it to turn 10 they should usually win against tempo,just on value alone. They don't even need dragon roar for it.


Apologies but I feel you're missing the point of this discussion.

In arena, tempo decks generally still have some removal just as control decks will have a few tempo-type cards.

The point raised is that Dragon Roar simply provides too much power in arena for a single card, no different than why DeathKnights were removed as was MCT.

Vicious Fledgling used to be comparable 'tempo' equivalent to Dragon Roar. If you didn't have an answer within a turn or two, it snowballed out of control.
01/13/2019 01:09 PMPosted by AyaBlackpaw
In close matches getting a dragon like Ysera or Deathwing are almost an instant-win unless the opponent top-decks removal.
Once you are at the stage that your opponent needs to top-deck removal, then there are dozens upon dozens of cards that will win you the game. Most more reliably than Dragon Roar.
In such a scenario, you actually already won when you managed to bait them into using their last remaining removal on a minion that appeared to be dangerous but should have been handled without hard removal.

Now if you had written "unless the opponent has removal", then I would agree. And I would compliment you for identifying the correct strategy to use when your oponent uses Dragon Roar: track which cards were generated because they COULD be powerful, track which board states your opponent did not play them to try to get a read on what the cards are, and then decide whether you can use your removal on the current board or need to hold it for a potential bigger threat.
(So basically, just as you would track every card they draw except that these cards are from a much smaller pool).

As to the lists of good/bad dragons in the starting post, the HearthArena scores are based on cards in your deck. Cards like Faerie Dragon, Nightmare Amalgam, and Emberscale Drake are strong when played on curve because they can win the early board and allow you to snowball. Getting those from Dragon Roar is rather unimpressive and I'd move them to below average for this purpose.
Siimilary, Twilight Drake gets weak towards the end game because Arena games, more often than ranked, tends to end with small hand size.

Getting two average dragons from Dragon Roar is nice, but not great and definitely not game-winning. If you want to make a case that Dragon Roar is too powerful, then you should separate the list into "better than average" and "average or below", and reduce the above-mentioned cards to "average or below". That leaves 11 "better than average" and 14 "average or worse" in the pool. Most often you will get one great dragon and a meh dragon, and even the chance of two meh dragons is worse than the chance of two great dragons.

In the Lightforge tier list, Dragon Roar is in the highes tier, at position #20. I think that's doing the card credit. It is a great card, no debate. It has an RNG element with a potential to get crazy results (both ways), but on average over multiple casts it is just a firmly solid very good card.
In the HearthArena tier list, Dragon Roar is the best common for Warrior, but there are 2 epics and 3 legendaries with a higer score and 1 legendary with the same score.
Given that two credible Arena tierlists agree that this card is not better than all other cards for Warrior, I think it'll be hard to argue that both lists are wrong and that the card is in fact so OP it has to be removed.

You might want to argue about what bucket it should be in. According to the Lightforge list, Dragon Roar is in bucket #3, where it is the fourth ranked card. So even that would be a hard point to make...
A couple of things maybe worth considering:

1) Quite a few Dragons will rotate in April. Stuff like Primordial Drake, Cobalt Scalebane, and Duskbreaker leaving the pool will affect the power level of the card (admittedly also Temporus and Ebon Dragonsmith).

1b) Dragon Roar is kinda special currently due to Rastakhan cards having an inflated appearance rate. Once the offering rate goes down, it's effect will be less visible.

2) Even if you consider it a late game card (as one should - I fully agree with you there) it is still a burden in that it's a big card that you're holding and yet you can't be sure what you get until you play it. Getting it early kinda sucks (which is, naturally, true of many cards).

3) Some of the Dragons are way more powerful than normal due to you getting two Dragons. Crowd Roaster isn't half-bad if you can be 100% you can proc it. And Duskbreaker is downright superb.

3b) It isn't a Dragon until you play it. It won't proc Dragon synergies until you play it and pay the 2 Mana cost. This is especially pertinent due to some of the best synergies being on very low cost Minions like Smolderthorn Lancer and Firetree Witchdoctor.

As for my opinion on the card - I do agree that it is very, very powerful and bears watching for sure. I would currently rather ban Supercollider as a more disruptive card but Dragon Roar is certainly up there. There are quite a few super powerful cards, though. Stuff like Unstable Evolution or Living Mana or UI. Let alone some of the Legendaries.

Finally, would I rather take a Primordial Drake or a Dragon Roar? Depends on the deck but sorta often I'd rather go for the PD.
01/13/2019 11:19 PMPosted by AyaBlackpaw
01/13/2019 05:42 PMPosted by Rassy
Most tempo decks have lost by turn 10 anyway,if they are not close to killing the warrior. Warrior can draft heavy (lots of value) if they go for a control deck and if they make it to turn 10 they should usually win against tempo,just on value alone. They don't even need dragon roar for it.


Apologies but I feel you're missing the point of this discussion.

In arena, tempo decks generally still have some removal just as control decks will have a few tempo-type cards.

The point raised is that Dragon Roar simply provides too much power in arena for a single card, no different than why DeathKnights were removed as was MCT.

Vicious Fledgling used to be comparable 'tempo' equivalent to Dragon Roar. If you didn't have an answer within a turn or two, it snowballed out of control.


I do agree it provides a lot of power/value later in the game and warrior can afford to go late. To me this still doesn't feel like a big issue.
You are probably still better of playing a scalewyrm at t8 empty board then dragon roar followed with the 6 mana dr dragon for example.
Its a great card to topdeck obviously and it can change the battle in close and long drawn out games,but so can other cards.
Like priest has thoughtsteal,they could steal your dragon roar and another card for just 1 more mana (which usually is not that important at turn 10)
Warlock can tap for an extra card and paladin has the 7 mana sword for a lot of value and tempo.
Warrior is strong when going late and some other classes are weaker when going late and for value. Dragon roar is part of what makes warrior strong for lategames but I don't think it is that important in the end and even without it warrior would still be strong going lategame. I have played lots of warrior and I actually only got to draft the roar once lol,its not that common I think and I would not miss it if it was gone either. I think the impact is overrated,its strong but not that much stronger then other good value lategame pulls.
01/13/2019 11:11 PMPosted by AyaBlackpaw
01/13/2019 02:11 PMPosted by FireHades
...

See, this is the point. Your chances of getting Ysera or Deathwing after playing Dragon Roar is really really low. And the matchup might not be that close, for example if your opponent notices you are keeping a card for 10-15+ turns, anyone could suspect a card like Deathwing as one of the generated dragons. In which case, switch your play style accordingly. I found myself playing against warriors with 3 dragon roars, filling their hand with dragons, meanwhile I was bashing their face like !@#$. It is a pretty good card, but not broken. If their dragons aren’t played around the time they are generated, start considering what could they be, notice if the board seems good enough for a Primordial Drake or Dragonmaw Scorcher to enter the field, consider Deathwing, also Temporus who will probably end up being a dead card in their hand. Analyze which play is more likely to weaken the possible dragons they get and you’ll end up winning more games than you think you would.


Firstly, please use paragraphs. It helps people clearly read the points you're making as you're saying several points in a wall of text there.

You're making counter-points to issues I didn't bring up though. You talk about Warriors holding cards which I never brought up as I suggested they play them late and then play the dragons almost immediately.

Dragon Roar, played around turn 10, provides on average looking at the stats, a great advantage to Warriors in late-game arena.


And now I am asking you. So?

It probably is the best card to provide an advantage in the late game, okay. Is it the only one? No.
A priest might have thoughtsteal and get two insane cards from your deck that you unfortunately didn't draw this game.
A warlock might have Omega Agent after turn 10, which will swing the board more than every single dragon in the list you provided (except Deathwing).
A mage might top deck Astral Rift into a Lich King.
A druid might have Spreading Plague against your Shaman and produce a 5/25 wall of taunts against your totems and Fire Flies.

I understand your point, I just think there's too much drama for a game based on rng. Card generation tilts players since forever and it's understandable, because it can overshadow a person's greater skill (possibly) to play the game over his opponent's. I really doubt Blizzard will ever ban it from arena, so let's just accept the state as it is. Plus I think they patched arena to make good cards appear less often in Warrior, Rogue and Hunter. Hopefully we won't see that much of it anymore.

I hope it's easier for you to read this way. Use your skills and don't worry too much about it, we have been through much more busted cards in the past in arena.
I think the card is well balanced, since it can give some !@#$ty results. However, the rarity is definetly off. It's NOT okay for a guy to draft 3 or 4 of these. It should be way more uncommon, almost like a legendary.
01/14/2019 09:09 AMPosted by LakiL
I think the card is well balanced, since it can give some !@#$ty results. However, the rarity is definetly off. It's NOT okay for a guy to draft 3 or 4 of these. It should be way more uncommon, almost like a legendary.


This. It should be higher bucketed and have higher competition and less offered.
There is something off with the ratings i see now.
Crowd roaster is rated below average,probably due to inconsistency in geting the trigger. But with dragon roar crowdroaster will have the trigger activation and i think it is better then below average as a pull
01/16/2019 04:47 PMPosted by Rassy
There is something off with the ratings i see now.
Crowd roaster is rated below average,probably due to inconsistency in geting the trigger. But with dragon roar crowdroaster will have the trigger activation and i think it is better then below average as a pull

That is exactly correct, crowd roaster should be considered much stronger than it's normal arena rating due to it always having an activator if played first.

Another thing to note is that even some of the other lower ranked dragons can have applications. While it would often be a poor choice to draft something like Emeriss for hunter, I have found that in certain games, getting such dragons from dragon roar can single handedly swing or even win the game.

What's important to keep in mind is that dragon's roar is both a value and rng based card; occasionally you might just get the perfect dragon for the situation and seal out the match. Because so many of the current standard dragons are legendary or of higher rarity, they tend to have unique/powerful effects, and for that reason alone dragon's roar can be considered very good. The card isn't quite broken though because of inconsistencies, but on average will offer useful cards, well worth the 2 mana expense up front in the late game.

In the earlier to mid-game, yes, it is less good and can be bad for tempo, but it is definitely not a dead draw. In most arena games as warrior, unless you curve out really well, there will often be at least one turn by the mid-game in which the only/best play leaves you with at least 2 mana leftover for something like dragon's roar (Think of it like a sort of arcane intellect for 2 mana) which will allow you to have more options for future turns. A slight tempo loss initially for a potential tempo gain later (i.e. deathwing, crowdroaster, primordial drake). Not to mention, the random element also makes it more difficult to play around, as long as your plays don't reveal what you received too obviously.

my synopsis:
Is it broken? no. Is it contributing to warrior being #1 in arena? yes.
Should the occurrence rate be lowered? If you ask me, I think they should nerf the occurrence rate of the entire bucket of great warrior cards just enough so that they don't overshadow everyone else
Just had a very poor arena run. All three of my losses were to Warrior and Dragon Roar was the card that changed the game each time. Likely pulling two big cards (many times a legendary card) for a class that is built to survive is a big advantage.

Dragon Roar is having the same type of affect that Vicious Fledging would have in arena imo. It should be removed as a card or its chance to be drafted should be greatly reduced. 2 of the warriors I lost to played Dragon Roar twice.

I am not the greatest at arena, but when one card is driving so many wins it should be adjusted.

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