New game mode: Real Casual with no MMR

Play Mode Discussion
A few days ago I complained that it took me about 5 minutes to find an opponent in Wild Casual. Now it takes me only mere seconds... to get matched with the same two opponents that instantly concede on their first turn!

MMR is bad if you're not playing to win and since not everyone plays in Casual to win (e.g. I play only for fun and that fun is not *about* winning) there should be a "Real Casual" mode with no MMR in place.
So tell me, how do you match players who are not attempting to win fairly?

There is a reason that sportsmanship rules in real sports tend to eject players who are not actively attempting to win, regardless of if it is a solo game or not.
02/14/2019 07:44 PMPosted by Rubinlibelle
there should be a "Real Casual" mode with no MMR in place.

With no MMR in place there'll be nothing to prevent a top tier player testing out a new variation of a top tier deck (to avoid tanking their rank) from getting matched with a random newbie who just unlocked "Real" Casual 10 times in a row.

What you're really looking for is an ingame lobby system with a chat feature and the ability to name a "room" to attract the kind of opponents you're looking for (and as the creator/appointed moderator of a "room" also kick players who don't follow the "rules"). While I would definitely support something like that, I also understand the level of work it would take to implement into the game at this point.

I expect Tournament Mode to arrive before such a feature, but I also expect that Tournament Mode would make implementing such a feature at least a bit easier.
02/14/2019 08:09 PMPosted by Ace0Spadez83
So tell me, how do you match players who are not attempting to win fairly?

There is a reason that sportsmanship rules in real sports tend to eject players who are not actively attempting to win, regardless of if it is a solo game or not.


And what does "fair" mean? Sportsmanship doesn't really mean much IMO. Yes, in real sports you can tend to "sort out" the players playing "unfairly" (whatever meaning it might have there), but in HS that isn't even a thing really. For example I don't like Alexstrasza, Jades, and Pogo-Hoppers, but the only thing I can do is concede as soon as I see them and that actually gives them a higher rating.

But of course it doesn't even matter in the new game mode because it's explicitly catering towards the non-competitive (casual) audience and therefore playing "unfairly" at worst just makes for quick games.

With that the question of gold acquisition may arise. Without any major changes I think the easiest solution for this is just no 10 gold per 3 wins anymore. The quests themselves require only like one or two wins, so at worst you would meet some of those people that just want to win for the quest, but mostly it should be players that just want to play some games for fun.

And generally speaking about players like I described initially: I think this is just a tiny minority and if I would encounter that in like one of 100 games it wouldn't be a big deal.
02/15/2019 05:06 AMPosted by WingedKagout
With no MMR in place there'll be nothing to prevent a top tier player testing out a new variation of a top tier deck (to avoid tanking their rank) from getting matched with a random newbie who just unlocked "Real" Casual 10 times in a row.


Yes, but this doesn't seem much relevant to me. You can always learn from a more experienced player and it will eventually "even out" in the grand scheme. I also can't really see much of a reason that this top tier player even goes into this new mode since the current "Casual" provides the same, but is more competitive. So it doesn't make much sense for deck testing purposes to go into the "Real Casual" IMO.

(Edit: Also, what do you mean with "unlocked". This mode wouldn't be locked in any way of course...)

02/15/2019 05:06 AMPosted by WingedKagout
What you're really looking for is an ingame lobby system with a chat feature and the ability to name a "room" to attract the kind of opponents you're looking for (and as the creator/appointed moderator of a "room" also kick players who don't follow the "rules"). While I would definitely support something like that, I also understand the level of work it would take to implement into the game at this point.

I expect Tournament Mode to arrive before such a feature, but I also expect that Tournament Mode would make implementing such a feature at least a bit easier.


Yeah, that would be even better. You're right, that is what I'm looking for. That would be amazing!

I still think as a quick solution which doesn't need that much work a "Real Casual" with no MMR would be a good "patchwork".
Sorry, enabling people to noob-stomp so their winrate finally has a chance of matching their egotism isn’t good for the game.

You shouldn’t want unfair matches. On either side.
Competitive games are not designed towards players that deliberately lose in the name of some sort of principle against winning.

You can't please all of the people all of the time. You need to demonstrate that there is a desire for this mode you want, beyond just you.

Heck, you should be happy right now instead of complaining. The MMR system has put you right where you wanted to be - matching against the two other people in the world who prefer to pity concede to the other guy rather than attempt to win against him. It seems that you're unhappy about this more because they're "winning" by beating you to the concede button than because there's something wrong with Casual mode.
02/15/2019 05:36 AMPosted by Mand
Sorry, enabling people to noob-stomp so their winrate finally has a chance of matching their egotism isn’t good for the game.

You shouldn’t want unfair matches. On either side.


The "unfair"-thing again... I guess it refers to a more skilled and/or more wealthly (in terms of card collection) player being matched to the opposite.

As I said in this new mode it isn't about winning, so "noobs" can just concede if they don't like it. I wonder how many "noob-stomper" would remain that way. Probably almost none since I don't think there are that many anyways.
02/15/2019 06:18 AMPosted by Rubinlibelle
02/15/2019 05:36 AMPosted by Mand
Sorry, enabling people to noob-stomp so their winrate finally has a chance of matching their egotism isn’t good for the game.

You shouldn’t want unfair matches. On either side.


The "unfair"-thing again... I guess it refers to a more skilled and/or more wealthly (in terms of card collection) player being matched to the opposite.

As I said in this new mode it isn't about winning, so "noobs" can just concede if they don't like it. I wonder how many "noob-stomper" would remain that way. Probably almost none since I don't think there are that many anyways.
While fun is certainly an integral part of the formula, Hearthstone is still a competitive game designed to encourage folks to win their matches. They aren't going to implement a mode that specifically goes against that.
02/15/2019 06:15 AMPosted by Slickriptide
Competitive games are not designed towards players that deliberately lose in the name of some sort of principle against winning.


Yes, and that's the only thing I don't like about HS, but indeed understandable.

02/15/2019 06:15 AMPosted by Slickriptide
You can't please all of the people all of the time. You need to demonstrate that there is a desire for this mode you want, beyond just you.


Apparently (at least in this forum) not many want something like that. So yeah... demonstration failed. (Why is everyone so obsessed with competition? They even go and complain about "cancer decks" and "toxic behavior". But of course competition is so great! Well, whatever...)

02/15/2019 06:15 AMPosted by Slickriptide
Heck, you should be happy right now instead of complaining. The MMR system has put you right where you wanted to be - matching against the two other people in the world who prefer to pity concede to the other guy rather than attempt to win against him. It seems that you're unhappy about this more because they're "winning" by beating you to the concede button than because there's something wrong with Casual mode.


I certainly did not wanted to be there. I only concede when I don't like the game anymore (or when I know from the name what is to come) and not before the game even starts. I think they were bots. Probably they want to maximize the gold acquisition for other players. Well, that's the only way I can make sense of it at least.

I do have to admit though after that they conceded like two or three times I tried to "beat them by conceding faster" when we were matched again. (Well, two can play That game!)

I also never said there's something wrong with Casual mode. (Although I think it would be better if people wouldn't be so competitive, but that's another thing.)
02/15/2019 06:22 AMPosted by Wardrum
While fun is certainly an integral part of the formula, Hearthstone is still a competitive game designed to encourage folks to win their matches. They aren't going to implement a mode that specifically goes against that.


I also try to win games, but it doesn't have to be so important.

But besides that the main problem is that I might concede for all kinds of reasons. For example I don't like Alexstrasza, Jades, Pogo-Hoppers and concede as soon as I see one. I also might concede because I don't care for the win and to show it was a nice match I give the win to my opponent. But in MMR it's all the same. So it's bad for people that doesn't care much for winning.

And it doesn't really go against it. It just makes everything neutral. A mode that would go against it would be the "Who can concede faster"-game. A "Real Casual" just doesn't look at your winrate for matchmaking. That's all.
NEW GAME MODE:

The RNG is actually random vs reliable.

They scrap the patented Activision AI algorithm that encourages win game purchases by forcing the game to hand out cards in a certain order. Now like everyone has learned, you have to have a better pattern to beat someone else's pattern. Or a specific card to to stop the inevitable.

Having uncertainty in a game would make people require more skill and take chances. Not just be a game of automation.
02/15/2019 06:52 AMPosted by Rubinlibelle
02/15/2019 06:22 AMPosted by Wardrum
While fun is certainly an integral part of the formula, Hearthstone is still a competitive game designed to encourage folks to win their matches. They aren't going to implement a mode that specifically goes against that.


I also try to win games, but it doesn't have to be so important.

But besides that the main problem is that I might concede for all kinds of reasons. For example I don't like Alexstrasza, Jades, Pogo-Hoppers and concede as soon as I see one. I also might concede because I don't care for the win and to show it was a nice match I give the win to my opponent. But in MMR it's all the same. So it's bad for people that doesn't care much for winning.

And it doesn't really go against it. It just makes everything neutral. A mode that would go against it would be the "Who can concede faster"-game. A "Real Casual" just doesn't look at your winrate for matchmaking. That's all.
Actually, with an MMR your conceding or losing VS meta decks actually puts you closer to more players with similar performance, meaning over time you have a *better* chance of interacting with other players who also want to just play fund decks.

Believe me, I understand prioritizing fun over going for the win at all costs. You're talking to someone who plays stuff like Divine Shield or Midrange Healadin just because I find the theme/interactions so friggin' cool. Sometimes its fun to thrash a meta deck now and then with it but the best matches are against like-minded players who also run interesting builds that really force us both to think and interact outside of a super streamlined path of play.

Without an MMR in place, I would have no "control" over where I'm at in my queues. Sure you get a wide variety of players/levels of tryhardiness even at more middle-of-the-road MMR levels, but I think that dedicating a mode only to "fun" or "not winning" would either invite stompers to come in and troll folks without an MMR to seperate them from others, or it would be a ghost town due to the lack of rewards and be labeled a waste of development resources.

Given recent events, I doubt they would have any interest in implementing such a thing without essentially guaranteed significant ROI on the project and I just don't really see how that would factor into this.
02/15/2019 05:06 AMPosted by WingedKagout
With no MMR in place there'll be nothing to prevent a top tier player testing out a new variation of a top tier deck (to avoid tanking their rank) from getting matched with a random newbie who just unlocked "Real" Casual 10 times in a row.


Yes, but this doesn't seem much relevant to me. You can always learn from a more experienced player and it will eventually "even out" in the grand scheme. I also can't really see much of a reason that this top tier player even goes into this new mode since the current "Casual" provides the same, but is more competitive. So it doesn't make much sense for deck testing purposes to go into the "Real Casual" IMO.

Neither player in my scenario would learn anything or have fun. The experienced player would most likely have 10 fairly easy wins (9 with if they get bad draw/rng luck) and not get a chance to figure out whether their changes to their deck are useful or not. On the opposite side, the newbie would just see something that crushes their random pile of cards. Then the newbie would go on the forum and complain that "card x" in the experienced player's deck is OP, that the game is pure P2W, that the system is broken and should not match new players up against experienced players/players with big collections, etc.

And they would actually have a valid point with that last one for a casual mode that relies on randomly pairing players.
(Edit: Also, what do you mean with "unlocked". This mode wouldn't be locked in any way of course...).

Casual (and Wild) is currently locked until a player reaches Rank 25. Because Standard Ranked is "fun". Or something.
A "real casual" mode can not have any reward. Otherwise, people will play to win. By having no MMR will not get you a "real casual" mode you looking for.
02/15/2019 07:05 AMPosted by Wardrum
Actually, with an MMR your conceding or losing VS meta decks actually puts you closer to more players with similar performance, meaning over time you have a *better* chance of interacting with other players who also want to just play fund decks.


That is true if you don't go to the extreme. I have to admit that maybe I went too overboard with my conceding.

02/15/2019 07:05 AMPosted by Wardrum
Without an MMR in place, I would have no "control" over where I'm at in my queues. Sure you get a wide variety of players/levels of tryhardiness even at more middle-of-the-road MMR levels, but I think that dedicating a mode only to "fun" or "not winning" would either invite stompers to come in and troll folks without an MMR to seperate them from others, or it would be a ghost town due to the lack of rewards and be labeled a waste of development resources.

Given recent events, I doubt they would have any interest in implementing such a thing without essentially guaranteed significant ROI on the project and I just don't really see how that would factor into this.


Yeah, I can understand. That probably just wouldn't be worth it.

It just sucks that currently I'm stuck at either waiting like 5 minutes or just facing opponents that don't even try to play the game properly. I guess I just have to be more active in finding friends. At least Wild Casual is currently almost unplayable for me.
02/15/2019 07:19 AMPosted by WingedKagout
Neither player in my scenario would learn anything or have fun. The experienced player would most likely have 10 fairly easy wins (9 with if they get bad draw/rng luck) and not get a chance to figure out whether their changes to their deck are useful or not. On the opposite side, the newbie would just see something that crushes their random pile of cards. Then the newbie would go on the forum and complain that "card x" in the experienced player's deck is OP, that the game is pure P2W, that the system is broken and should not match new players up against experienced players/players with big collections, etc.

And they would actually have a valid point with that last one for a casual mode that relies on randomly pairing players.


As I said: Why would the pro player even go into this mode? I wasn't suggesting on replacing Casual. It might be an additional mode.

As far as the complaining goes: It should be made clear that this mode matches people totally random. I don't think it's that hard to understand.

02/15/2019 07:19 AMPosted by WingedKagout
Casual (and Wild) is currently locked until a player reaches Rank 25. Because Standard Ranked is "fun". Or something.


Oh, okay. That certainly shouldn't be a thing. But I guess that would be another topic...
02/15/2019 07:33 AMPosted by JohnHoo
A "real casual" mode can not have any reward. Otherwise, people will play to win. By having no MMR will not get you a "real casual" mode you looking for.


That might be true, but it would be a rather simple addition that might come closer to it then the current "Casual".
02/15/2019 08:25 AMPosted by Rubinlibelle
I guess I just have to be more active in finding friends.
I know this seems to be an oft-repeated solution to what you seek, but it really is the best option.

Obviously as you can tell, I enjoy fun matches (when I actually find time to play) so I'm down for a friend request if you want to send me one.

Additionally, I'd recommend joining our Discord community. There are quite a few of us who really love jamming out to strange decks, whether it be Wild or Standard (I'm pretty much a Standard-only guy). As someone who hates dealing with a lot of 3rd party stuff, the mobile app (I'm exclusively on my phone) is fantastic and easy to use.

Use this link: https://discord.gg/j3hqcZP
02/15/2019 08:50 AMPosted by Wardrum
Obviously as you can tell, I enjoy fun matches (when I actually find time to play) so I'm down for a friend request if you want to send me one.

Additionally, I'd recommend joining our Discord community.


Thanks. I'm not active on the NA server though. I'm just posting here as it probably is the main and most active forum. I'm playing on EU. I just want to make sure. (I don't think I will ever trying to "duplicate" my complete HS collection onto the NA, haha. I think that would be like 4,000 € or so... currently... And no, I don't like to have just some of the cards. It's not really my thing.)

And thanks for the Discord invite. I check it out. Hopefully it's not too much NA-focused. (This server divide really sucks for finding friends... oh, well.)

Join the Conversation

Return to Forum