Player input CAN put this game back on track

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2 simple things CAN put HS back on track:

1. Player feedback. These forums are full of great suggestions and feedback, but Blizz rarely listens or blows it when they do. Case in point: hunter spellstone fix was good, but barnes/maly were ignored even though the playerbase was begging for changes. What do we get? Cold blood and FTT nerfs. Whaaat??

Another example: druid and shaman OTK. They didn't hit juicy, spreading or UI, they hit basic and classic ramp cards. Ditto for shutter, but they kinda fixed it by nerfing SCG.

2. Immediately recruit top talent like Amaz, Toast, Firebat and Trump along with 400 other players that play 20 games or more per day to "shake out" new sets for 2 weeks 30-45 days prior to release. This gives you time to digest their feedback and make last minute changes before going live.

Who cares if card names/effects get spoiled on someone's stream? You MUST do a better job of balancing and testing your product!!

Believe it or not, your player base desperately wants this game to succeed.

3. Take back YOUR forums. If FB or reddit are your main communications channels, you're failing. Bring back class specific forums, add a "DEV" forum where Team-5 can directly communicate with your customers.

Silence is your enemy. Engage with us here and, trust me, we'll appreciate it as long as we feel like you're listening and you're sincere.
Yup, it's 3 things but i'm not going to edit and lose the thread.

Let's be positive and give Jesse something tangible he can take back to his leadership team. I know there's a TON of really smart people on the forums that can help HS get through this slump.
The Dev probably take information(feedback) from various sources
My main question is, How to the posters/players know if their voices are heard?
ive seen them posting news on playheartstone ( the link to it is here on the forums )
but people here wont check it

instead someone from reddit does it and makes a thread

then people here say they used reddit instead of the official site ....but when they do nobody bothers checking it !!!

ive seen this happen not long ago with the nerfs announcement and the lunar year bundle and event

02/04/2019 08:47 AMPosted by URjustSOL
1. Player feedback. These forums are full of great suggestions and feedback, but Blizz rarely listens or blows it when they do. Case in point: hunter spellstone fix was good, but barnes/maly were ignored even though the playerbase was begging for changes. What do we get? Cold blood and FTT nerfs. Whaaat??

Another example: druid and shaman OTK. They didn't hit juicy, spreading or UI, they hit basic and classic ramp cards. Ditto for shutter, but they kinda fixed it by nerfing SCG.


you forgot to list the times they listen to the feedback like when they sped up shudderwock animations or enabled the concede button mid animation

or when people complained about rexxar DK not having the new beasts from the new expansion blizzard without explaining it on the card made it so no beasts after frozen throne were added to its pool
they listened and they ve been adding the new ones since

or when they nerfed / changed tess mechanics after saying the card would work like a pre nerf yogg because of players feedback she was changed so her battlecry wont stop if removed from the board

im pretty sure im missing some
Not disagreeing with you overall, but
02/04/2019 08:47 AMPosted by URjustSOL
1. Player feedback. These forums are full of great suggestions and feedback, but Blizz rarely listens or blows it when they do.
2. Immediately recruit top talent like Amaz, Toast, Firebat and Trump along with 400 other players that play 20 games or more per day to "shake out" new sets for 2 weeks 30-45 days prior to release. This gives you time to digest their feedback and make last minute changes before going live.
this contradicts each other. Couple of people already mentioned how they're not keen on 'customer is always right' phrase, I'm with them also. Which customer? Who to listen to? Customers/players have contradicting opinions. Even pros have different opinion from one another. I skimmed through omnislash's talking about nerf vid, and you can clearly see Kibler and Firebat differ in theirs. I always was more on Kibler's side (similar preference/opinion), but there should be plenty who agrees with Firebat. They both agreed that OTK priest is not really good for the meta though.

Blizz did invited ex-WC3 pros to ask their opinion before going on with WC3 Reforged. I could see T5 doing something similar.
Constructive feedback. Well done.

I did get a bit of a chuckle, though, out of the bit about top players who play 20 games a day. I play 20 games a day sometimes...and the only way I would be a top player is if every other player died.
02/04/2019 09:16 AMPosted by Streak
Constructive feedback. Well done.

I did get a bit of a chuckle, though, out of the bit about top players who play 20 games a day. I play 20 games a day sometimes...and the only way I would be a top player is if every other player died.


Those were 2 items. Top players = innovative deck builders. People that could figure out ways to break cards/combos better then the devs or QA team.

Then there's players that lau more than 20 games a day. That's multiple hours. Every day. Get 400 of them to kick the tires on each new set. I picked 20 games out of my rear. The point is to get enough data & feedback. Getting 400 players to play 4 games a piece per day won't provide much feedback.

@sky3union: i'm talking about general concensus. They can't bow to every whiner that comes to the forum after losing a game, but obviously big priest/ barnes is a problem that's been ignored too long.

@Boreas: yes, there have been times where they have responded to public outcry, but that seems to be the exception. I'm asking that they make it the rule (or a bigger priority).

IMHO I don't think the game is too far off kilter but I do believe that they're going down the wrong path and that they could do better.
02/04/2019 08:47 AMPosted by URjustSOL
2 simple things CAN put HS back on track:

1. Player feedback. These forums are full of great suggestions and feedback, but Blizz rarely listens or blows it when they do. Case in point: hunter spellstone fix was good, but barnes/maly were ignored even though the playerbase was begging for changes. What do we get? Cold blood and FTT nerfs. Whaaat??

Another example: druid and shaman OTK. They didn't hit juicy, spreading or UI, they hit basic and classic ramp cards. Ditto for shutter, but they kinda fixed it by nerfing SCG.

2. Immediately recruit top talent like Amaz, Toast, Firebat and Trump along with 400 other players that play 20 games or more per day to "shake out" new sets for 2 weeks 30-45 days prior to release. This gives you time to digest their feedback and make last minute changes before going live.

Who cares if card names/effects get spoiled on someone's stream? You MUST do a better job of balancing and testing your product!!

Believe it or not, your player base desperately wants this game to succeed.

3. Take back YOUR forums. If FB or reddit are your main communications channels, you're failing. Bring back class specific forums, add a "DEV" forum where Team-5 can directly communicate with your customers.

Silence is your enemy. Engage with us here and, trust me, we'll appreciate it as long as we feel like you're listening and you're sincere.


Excellent suggestions, OP. Thank you for posting. Transparency and communication are vital to maintaining healthy relationships.

Not disagreeing with you overall, but
02/04/2019 08:47 AMPosted by URjustSOL
1. Player feedback. These forums are full of great suggestions and feedback, but Blizz rarely listens or blows it when they do.
2. Immediately recruit top talent like Amaz, Toast, Firebat and Trump along with 400 other players that play 20 games or more per day to "shake out" new sets for 2 weeks 30-45 days prior to release. This gives you time to digest their feedback and make last minute changes before going live.
this contradicts each other. Couple of people already mentioned how they're not keen on 'customer is always right' phrase, I'm with them also. Which customer? Who to listen to? Customers/players have contradicting opinions. Even pros have different opinion from one another. I skimmed through omnislash's talking about nerf vid, and you can clearly see Kibler and Firebat differ in theirs. I always was more on Kibler's side (similar preference/opinion), but there should be plenty who agrees with Firebat. They both agreed that OTK priest is not really good for the meta though.

Blizz did invited ex-WC3 pros to ask their opinion before going on with WC3 Reforged. I could see T5 doing something similar.


Good question! Who do you listen to when it comes to the suggestion box?

As the senior member of my team at work, I have encountered this same dilemma and over the years I have learned a few things:

1. Consider the Source
If one person comes to me and says, "sky3union isn't doing their job, " I look at who is making the complaint. If it's a regular complainer or a person I know that likes to cause drama, I would ignore it and then approach you and say, "Just so you're aware, watch yourself around this person."

Now, if the complaint comes from someone that never has a bad thing to say about anyone, I will ask them where it's coming from and deduce the root of the problem. Improper training is usually the cause, in which case, I would pair you with myself and show you the ropes.

If the entire team approaches me with complaints, then I will bring it to my supervisor. It means there is a problem somewhere - clash of personality, clash of work style/preference - whatever the issue.

When it comes to the developers of Hearthstone, seeing a forum full of constant complaints is probably something to address. However, if the complaints only exist here, then should the developers listen to a vocal minority...or Reddit/Hearthpwn/Facebook/Twitter who might have different opinions/ideas than the handful of posters here on the forum?

If they see the complaint everywhere and the majority of the fan base is on the same page, it probably needs to be addressed ASAP.
It's a tough thing to deal with for sure and the fact of the matter is, you're not going to please everyone.

2. Need to Know Basis
This is a tough issue to deal with as well and it happens all the time at my work. If a complaint is made and I have to approach someone, I cannot tell that individual who made the complaint. I like to think that the same concept applies to the game.

The developers are privy to truckloads of information that we do not have access to...the nerfs they make may not make sense now but we don't know what the next expansion has in store, either.

3. Persistence is Key
I know that some people will bring up Auto Squelch as an excuse to deny this point but it doesn't hurt. Jump on Reddit, hearthpwn or reach out via FB and Twitter. Make your voice heard. Provide constructive feedback and intelligent reasoning as to what should change and why. They might listen, they might not...but stay persistent.

If someone comes to me with the same complaint multiple times, its going to get my attention. I do not make them aware of this however, because it is too easy to abuse the privilege. This is work - I'm not here to make sure every little thing is comfortable for you at the expense of the whole team.
02/04/2019 08:47 AMPosted by URjustSOL
2 simple things CAN put HS back on track:

1. Player feedback. These forums are full of great suggestions and feedback, but Blizz rarely listens or blows it when they do. Case in point: hunter spellstone fix was good, but barnes/maly were ignored even though the playerbase was begging for changes. What do we get? Cold blood and FTT nerfs. Whaaat??

Another example: druid and shaman OTK. They didn't hit juicy, spreading or UI, they hit basic and classic ramp cards. Ditto for shutter, but they kinda fixed it by nerfing SCG.

2. Immediately recruit top talent like Amaz, Toast, Firebat and Trump along with 400 other players that play 20 games or more per day to "shake out" new sets for 2 weeks 30-45 days prior to release. This gives you time to digest their feedback and make last minute changes before going live.

Who cares if card names/effects get spoiled on someone's stream? You MUST do a better job of balancing and testing your product!!

Believe it or not, your player base desperately wants this game to succeed.

3. Take back YOUR forums. If FB or reddit are your main communications channels, you're failing. Bring back class specific forums, add a "DEV" forum where Team-5 can directly communicate with your customers.

Silence is your enemy. Engage with us here and, trust me, we'll appreciate it as long as we feel like you're listening and you're sincere.


Excellent suggestions, OP. Thank you for posting. Transparency and communication are vital to maintaining healthy relationships.

Not disagreeing with you overall, but......this contradicts each other. Couple of people already mentioned how they're not keen on 'customer is always right' phrase, I'm with them also. Which customer? Who to listen to? Customers/players have contradicting opinions. Even pros have different opinion from one another. I skimmed through omnislash's talking about nerf vid, and you can clearly see Kibler and Firebat differ in theirs. I always was more on Kibler's side (similar preference/opinion), but there should be plenty who agrees with Firebat. They both agreed that OTK priest is not really good for the meta though.

Blizz did invited ex-WC3 pros to ask their opinion before going on with WC3 Reforged. I could see T5 doing something similar.


Good question! Who do you listen to when it comes to the suggestion box?

As the senior member of my team at work, I have encountered this same dilemma and over the years I have learned a few things:

1. Consider the Source
If one person comes to me and says, "sky3union isn't doing their job, " I look at who is making the complaint. If it's a regular complainer or a person I know that likes to cause drama, I would ignore it and then approach you and say, "Just so you're aware, watch yourself around this person."

Now, if the complaint comes from someone that never has a bad thing to say about anyone, I will ask them where it's coming from and deduce the root of the problem. Improper training is usually the cause, in which case, I would pair you with myself and show you the ropes.

If the entire team approaches me with complaints, then I will bring it to my supervisor. It means there is a problem somewhere - clash of personality, clash of work style/preference - whatever the issue.

When it comes to the developers of Hearthstone, seeing a forum full of constant complaints is probably something to address. However, if the complaints only exist here, then should the developers listen to a vocal minority...or Reddit/Hearthpwn/Facebook/Twitter who might have different opinions/ideas than the handful of posters here on the forum?

If they see the complaint everywhere and the majority of the fan base is on the same page, it probably needs to be addressed ASAP.
It's a tough thing to deal with for sure and the fact of the matter is, you're not going to please everyone.

2. Need to Know Basis
This is a tough issue to deal with as well and it happens all the time at my work. If a complaint is made and I have to approach someone, I cannot tell that individual who made the complaint. I like to think that the same concept applies to the game.

The developers are privy to truckloads of information that we do not have access to...the nerfs they make may not make sense now but we don't know what the next expansion has in store, either.

3. Persistence is Key
I know that some people will bring up Auto Squelch as an excuse to deny this point but it doesn't hurt. Jump on Reddit, hearthpwn or reach out via FB and Twitter. Make your voice heard. Provide constructive feedback and intelligent reasoning as to what should change and why. They might listen, they might not...but stay persistent.

If someone comes to me with the same complaint multiple times, its going to get my attention. I do not make them aware of this however, because it is too easy to abuse the privilege. This is work - I'm not here to make sure every little thing is comfortable for you at the expense of the whole team.


Thank you, great stuff!

My only comment: I would never tell one employee that another employee was complaining about them. Gotta stay discreet and you need to protect their confidence, otherwise they won't tell you the dirt anymore.
...

Excellent suggestions, OP. Thank you for posting. Transparency and communication are vital to maintaining healthy relationships.

...

Good question! Who do you listen to when it comes to the suggestion box?

As the senior member of my team at work, I have encountered this same dilemma and over the years I have learned a few things:

1. Consider the Source
If one person comes to me and says, "sky3union isn't doing their job, " I look at who is making the complaint. If it's a regular complainer or a person I know that likes to cause drama, I would ignore it and then approach you and say, "Just so you're aware, watch yourself around this person."

Now, if the complaint comes from someone that never has a bad thing to say about anyone, I will ask them where it's coming from and deduce the root of the problem. Improper training is usually the cause, in which case, I would pair you with myself and show you the ropes.

If the entire team approaches me with complaints, then I will bring it to my supervisor. It means there is a problem somewhere - clash of personality, clash of work style/preference - whatever the issue.

When it comes to the developers of Hearthstone, seeing a forum full of constant complaints is probably something to address. However, if the complaints only exist here, then should the developers listen to a vocal minority...or Reddit/Hearthpwn/Facebook/Twitter who might have different opinions/ideas than the handful of posters here on the forum?

If they see the complaint everywhere and the majority of the fan base is on the same page, it probably needs to be addressed ASAP.
It's a tough thing to deal with for sure and the fact of the matter is, you're not going to please everyone.

2. Need to Know Basis
This is a tough issue to deal with as well and it happens all the time at my work. If a complaint is made and I have to approach someone, I cannot tell that individual who made the complaint. I like to think that the same concept applies to the game.

The developers are privy to truckloads of information that we do not have access to...the nerfs they make may not make sense now but we don't know what the next expansion has in store, either.

3. Persistence is Key
I know that some people will bring up Auto Squelch as an excuse to deny this point but it doesn't hurt. Jump on Reddit, hearthpwn or reach out via FB and Twitter. Make your voice heard. Provide constructive feedback and intelligent reasoning as to what should change and why. They might listen, they might not...but stay persistent.

If someone comes to me with the same complaint multiple times, its going to get my attention. I do not make them aware of this however, because it is too easy to abuse the privilege. This is work - I'm not here to make sure every little thing is comfortable for you at the expense of the whole team.


Thank you, great stuff!

My only comment: I would never tell one employee that another employee was complaining about them. Gotta stay discreet and you need to protect their confidence, otherwise they won't tell you the dirt anymore.


Yep. I usually say, "A complaint was made..."
@Gwyneth, URjustSOL
You guys are vastly underestimating the number of playerbase. Everyone has their opinion. Even in this forum. I'm not just talking about typical whiners or players who seldom use the forum but just drop by occasionally to write a rant post, I'm more talking about regulars. I can list several aspect of the game I don't like or decks/cards I think are bad for the health of the game, other people will have a counter argument. And of course, vice versa. There are also several issues that make it hard to find the real balance. People with complaint will always be more vocal about it while the ones who are satisfied, less. And think of the old trope. A calls nerf to B, B calls nerf to C, C calls nerf to A. So who to nerf? I just don't trust the general playerbase (not any individual, but the group) regarding balance. I did say even among pros their opinion differs. But I much rather Blizz heed what they have to say.
The problem is there’s a lot of garbage player feedback:

1. Players complain about the ninja December nerf to Kingsbane. Dev team announced Hunter nerfs a week in advance and people still complain as if no action is being taken.

2. People complain about the new player experience. They made 25 levels for new players, and a bunch of smurfs swarmed it, and then had the audacity to come to the forum to complain about other smurfs in those levels.

3. Players complain about the power turn cards whose win rate is dependent on earlier played enabler cards with the actual highest win rates on decks, like Rexxar instead of Candleshot.
it feels like they don't listen or they do listen and make changes for the next expansion then forget and go right back to their old ways.

cube and deathrattle rogue/hunter are the same nax super sticky minion garbage all over again, baku is the worst part of gvg made stronger, they even brought rag back and he is playable on turn 7 and summons a 4/4 after removing him from the game for being too powerful!
02/04/2019 08:57 AMPosted by Reaver
The Dev probably take information(feedback) from various sources
My main question is, How to the posters/players know if their voices are heard?


I very, very highly doubt this. Generally dev's work in bubbles, occasionally wandering over to their audience. The people that actually interact and read feedback are customer service reps that basically don't communicate with devs and don't care about the state of the game.
So I really have only one objection to the second point of OP's argument, to recruit streamers for play testing.

To begin with, it is impossible for anyone to truly perfect the play testing segment. There will be cards that will be better than what anyone could have thought, and there will be cards that are worse than what anyone could have thought. Having Hearthstone streamers look at them means absolutely nothing.
There’s a saying kicked around the professional writing scene that effectively states that a test audience will know 99% of the time if something is wrong, 50% of the time what is wrong, and 1% of the time what to do.

It brings to mind a visit I had decades ago to a water treatment plant of all places. The director mentioned that when they get multiple calls complaining about there being too much chlorine in the water they take a sample and set it to tests, and while waiting for results they increase the amount of chlorine they are adding. It turns out that what the average person is asking for is exactly opposite of the actions needed.

In a Hearthstone context, perhaps the OTK influx has the control community frustrated. So they understandably ask for OTK nerfs, when it is possible that what needs to happen is control nerfs to allow a healthier aggro population to check the OTK numbers.

The players aren’t usually developers. They almost universally won’t understand the big picture. Even the developers often won’t know what actions to take, hence why actions usually take so long: Emerald spellstone is a problem, do we up the cost? do we lower the attack or the health? How about the trigger conditions? A dozen developers trying out different solutions can take a sizable chunk of a meta just to try out.

The suggestion of a group of early access players as set beta-testers seems like a good one, but then you’ve effectively taken the month of experimentation that usually follows set release and removed it from the game. I don’t think I’m alone thinking that that unsolved meta phase is the best part of the game, but if you throw Toast, Firebat and Kibbler at a set and give them a month’s experience with a set, they’ll come out with the meta largely solved. Netdeckers will take over day two or three instead of week two three as it may currently be.

As for the lack of forum representation, I can only assume that more would be better. Not that it would necessarily help, people don’t listen to what they say anyway, but I can’t think it would hit much more than could be fixed with a few weeks of therapy per annum.
the aggro population is healthy enough, trust me but you are kind of onto one thing, sudderwock countered hunter shudderwock nerfs are directly responsible for the hunters rise.

what would put hunters back down would be unnerf shudderwock, except they can't because as developers they didn't see the bigger picture and it was possible to get some pretty discussing combos rolling.

edit:I basically just agreed with the guy above me +4 upvotes and got downvoted for it lol
02/04/2019 09:28 PMPosted by Cemarz
02/04/2019 08:57 AMPosted by Reaver
The Dev probably take information(feedback) from various sources
My main question is, How to the posters/players know if their voices are heard?


I very, very highly doubt this. Generally dev's work in bubbles, occasionally wandering over to their audience. The people that actually interact and read feedback are customer service reps that basically don't communicate with devs and don't care about the state of the game.


I refer to Dev as a single identity (all functions with CS included forming a whole)
In some industries, there are data such as how many feedbacks/ complains/ surveys that had been done/ received over a period and how many had been addressed.

At a players perspective, some games engage with their players actively through their own forum, thus the players have a feeling that their concerns are addressed or heard.
Previous live Q&A by HS was a great form of such engagement which I had only observed done once since its initial years.

The inconsistency by HS leads me to believe the above.


The players aren’t usually developers. They almost universally won’t understand the big picture. Even the developers often won’t know what actions to take, hence why actions usually take so long: Emerald spellstone is a problem, do we up the cost? do we lower the attack or the health? How about the trigger conditions? A dozen developers trying out different solutions can take a sizable chunk of a meta just to try out.


I find the statement puzzling. If a developer does not know what action to take, then it shows that he/she is incompetent* for the task, otherwise there is no system of control.

If the issue is more towards requiring data (need X number of games, from a meta, to determine an action) and time (technical changes, etc) then it is more acceptable.
02/04/2019 10:27 PMPosted by Tari
the aggro population is healthy enough, trust me but you are kind of onto one thing, sudderwock countered hunter shudderwock nerfs are directly responsible for the hunters rise.

what would put hunters back down would be unnerf shudderwock, except they can't because as developers they didn't see the bigger picture and it was possible to get some pretty discussing combos rolling.


Shudder was fail. Pretty much confirmation their testing skills and knowledge of the game are laughable at best.

Fixing a game isnt a feat for single card nerf or buff. To balance things more cards have to be fixed, banned, released or buffed.

If you think single card can fix anything. Especially broken card... You should work for HS team I guess
Reaver:
The players aren’t usually developers. They almost universally won’t understand the big picture. Even the developers often won’t know what actions to take, hence why actions usually take so long: Emerald spellstone is a problem, do we up the cost? do we lower the attack or the health? How about the trigger conditions? A dozen developers trying out different solutions can take a sizable chunk of a meta just to try out.
I find the statement puzzling. If a developer does not know what action to take, then it shows that he/she is incompetent* for the task, otherwise there is no system of control.

If the issue is more towards requiring data (need X number of games, from a meta, to determine an action) and time (technical changes, etc) then it is more acceptable.
Devs can't predict the future. They won't know the full picture of how such and such action will impact the meta. HS is different from other Blizz titles in that it doesn't have PTR. Devs don't have the data pool to test all the little changes.

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