The Real Issue: We're all Lazy Players at Times

Play Mode Discussion
Ranging from legend level players to Rank 20 players I think a major issue that feels it has picked up recently isn’t the game but the collective player base (or at least boards) willingness to adapt to a meta and attack it.

I understand it, we want to play the decks we want in the manner we want to build them without having to resort to putting in ‘boring’ tech cards like Spellbreaker, Earth Shock, Mojomaster, etc. I think consciously or subconsciously we’ve begun to look at the solution to our problem decks as being nerfs instead of tech cards or scratch designs. We’ve looked to nerfs instead of realizing “X” strategy just isn’t viable at the moment (for instance every nerf has harmed the meta for my Hakkar Priest to the point of it not being viable atm) and we’ve looked to nerfs instead of understanding there will be some decks that are going to be tier 1 and having some understanding that as long as those decks are not dominant that it is the nature of the CCG beast.

Competitive CCGs modes are, at their core, ruthlessly efficient in the competitive scene and about individuality in the fun scene.

Are there problem cards (power or design wise?) yes there are but it feels like EVERY CARD WITH SOME POWER is complained about now and not just the top power cards that do dance the line. Collectively the player base has become ‘addicted’ to nerfs instead of tweaking and working towards combating the meta. I’ll include myself in that group as after the past few months my literal thought (and what spurred me debating this post for awhile) is:

“why bother putting the hours tweaking as another nerf is coming soon anyways”

I think problem number one right now in terms of the overall frustration with this game/meta is that many of us have begun, myself included, to view the answers to issues should be coming from an outside source (buffs [wish] & nerfs) and not from complete redesigns of either base archetype philosophy or tweaking constantly.

This is more of just an observation as I don't feel like there is really a way out of this issue right now outside of self-motivation and.... we're stuck in a vicious cycle a bit when nerfs are becoming more common.
Nope. This is not the "real" issue.

The real issue is legitimately bad game design.

It's a poor meta thanks to a lack of tech choices and counter-strategies to combos/control other than recklessly going face and hoping the opponent's unstoppable win condition doesn't go off in time.

When the game is in bad shape, the players will be in bad shape. If you want to fix the players, you must fix the game.

We've had metas like LoE and Old Gods where player outlook was generally more positive, after all.
Ahhh not a bad theory man, however...

Don't be one to forget that perhaps people arnt using tech cards like Zihi because some people don't have every card. Nor the dust to craft them either.

Beyond that, I feel the problem is people attach themselves to opinions of others an then accept a loss because of someone else's statement as to why. Example: I lost this game because HS is just rock,paper,scissors nonsense.
02/24/2019 09:48 AMPosted by Swift
The real issue is legitimately bad game design.

It's a poor meta thanks to a lack of tech choices and counter-strategies to combos/control other than recklessly going face and hoping the opponent's unstoppable win condition doesn't go off in time.

When the game is in bad shape, the players will be in bad shape. If you want to fix the players, you must fix the game.


BAM, enough said +1

(But Swift, we're dealing with the presumptions and assumptions of the average HS player that chooses to frequent these forums. The "truth" you speak of will mostly fall on "deaf ears" unfortunately as it doesn't support the "agenda's" of the "average HS player that chooses to frequent these forums"...)
02/24/2019 09:48 AMPosted by Theman

Beyond that, I feel the problem is people attach themselves to opinions of others an then accept a loss because of someone else's statement as to why. Example: I lost this game because HS is just rock,paper,scissors nonsense.
I feel like this is a HUGE one.

There are some polarized matchups out there, yes, but even ones that fall into a 60/40 range, whenever someone loses them, get raged over as if they could never have won that watch and will never be able to win any future instances of it ever.

The exaggeration is bad enough, but people see these things and run so far with them that any time they come across a matchup that doesn't obviously favor them, they get immediately tilted and cannot even manage to navigate what very well may be a pretty fair matchup.
I think the advice here is really only relevant to players with significant collections.

“Just spend 1600 dust to craft Mojomaster Zihi” or “Completely pivot to an archetype you have no cards for” doesn’t really work for someone on a budget.

That said, I agree that most of the “nerf this, nerf that” threads are more about selfishly pushing forward the preferred achetype of the poster.
02/24/2019 09:48 AMPosted by Swift
It's a poor meta thanks to a lack of tech choices and counter-strategies to combos/control other than recklessly going face and hoping the opponent's unstoppable win condition doesn't go off in time.


I mean, your mission is to kill them before they kill you. Either you play a deck that can do that, or you... lose and complain on the forums, I guess? Someone has to have the best "unstoppable win condition", right? Most Control decks right now run so much removal that they lack the threats to deal with Combo. And maybe there is too much powerful removal in Standard right now, and that bolsters both Combo and Control.

People think that Dirty Rat is a good tech card, but it really isn't. There's an RNG element, yes, but the ability to just delete your opponent's strategy isn't fun or engaging or for the opponent either. It's not skill that let you win that game, save for trying to guess when to play Rat for the best chance of interrupting the combo.

And people say that OTK is out of control, but if you add up all the populations of all the OTK decks you're only at about 20% of the ladder, spread across 5+ archetypes. 20% of the ladder is Hunters, are they not running amok? I think it's confirmation bias in action, when you're more focused on your 1 in 5 games than the other 4. Even if it's an auto-win against all of them, and it won't be because they all work differently, that's still only taking your unfavored match-up from, say, 35% win to 100% win in 1 out of 5 games. In exchange for weakening your deck in the other 80%. So even if there were tech cards, they would mostly be run by salty people focused on a small percentage of their games. Like we're seeing with Demonic Project, for example.

And there is a counter card for Mecha'thun, it's called Hakkar. Put'im in your deck, he'll raise your chances against those draw heavy decks. Tough to get him to work in that short period against Mecha'thun Priest, though. After Hemet, and then get Hakkar dead before a Psychic Scream derails your plans. That Paladin played Time Out? Hakkar might kill him before he can play on his next turn. I will say that I think Mecha'thun is poor game design, though; OTK cards should never be neutral.

I'm a Priest player. I get that some losses tilt you more than others. I understand that people frequently complain about things that really aren't a problem. We all just need to grow up and embrace the many different ways that classes and archetypes can play out. Like, this meta right now is the embodiment of stagnation because Blizz did like we thought we wanted. Control meta, powerful cards, a "Reno" effect that's always in play with Genn and Baku. It's all just stagnated for a year, no meaningful changes have happened in the power structure. Because you can't power-creep infinitely and still have a playable game at the end of it.
Bravo good sir. I have nothing at add just wanted you to know I upvoted you. Lol
02/24/2019 09:48 AMPosted by Swift
The real issue is legitimately bad game design.


02/24/2019 09:55 AMPosted by ReaprOfSouls
02/24/2019 09:48 AMPosted by Swift
The real issue is legitimately bad game design.

It's a poor meta thanks to a lack of tech choices and counter-strategies to combos/control other than recklessly going face and hoping the opponent's unstoppable win condition doesn't go off in time.

When the game is in bad shape, the players will be in bad shape. If you want to fix the players, you must fix the game.


BAM, enough said +1

(But Swift, we're dealing with the presumptions and assumptions of the average HS player that chooses to frequent these forums. The "truth" you speak of will mostly fall on "deaf ears" unfortunately as it doesn't support the "agenda's" of the "average HS player that chooses to frequent these forums"...)

I'll give you an example of why you're both wrong and right:

We don't have some legitimate tools we should probably have and that I can agree with but.... also there are tools a lot of us are not seemingly attempting to use.

Let's look at one of the primary hated decks right now in Gallery/Wall Priest (Resurrect mechanic) there are decks and cards not being used a lot that harm this strategy:

Neutral Cards that Harm the resurrect pool (Standard):
Gravelsnout Knight
Saronite Taskmaster
Marsh Drake (worse of the bunch)
Muck Hunter
Hungry Ettin (I have seen this in fairness)
Marin

Class Cards that Harm the Resurrect Pool (Standard):
Cornered Sentry
Treachery (poorly)

Especially looking at Taskmaster, Gravelsnout, and is a lesser degree Ettin and Muck Hunter those are decent tech options in Control against the Resurrect mechanic. In addition I am shocked that we haven't seen more 'normal' Warrior (probably Quest) being played as it does VERY WELL against Odd Paladin (#3 deck) and has a lot of tools to harm Gallery (#8) and Wall (#2) decks. I can't comment on how it would do against Secret Odd Mage as I haven't faced that deck enough with enough repetitiveness to have a good feel for it and the deck would probably struggle a bit against MR Hunter because of DK Rexxar.

02/24/2019 10:05 AMPosted by NerevarAgain
I think the advice here is really only relevant to players with significant collections.

“Just spend 1600 dust to craft Mojomaster Zihi” or “Completely pivot to an archetype you have no cards for” doesn’t really work for someone on a budget.

That said, I agree that most of the “nerf this, nerf that” threads are more about selfishly pushing forward the preferred achetype of the poster.

This is a fair point and is an issue in CCGs. There are some easy techs dust wise (silences) but others are demanding a lot to budget individuals.
Part of it is blizzard fault too.

Like...
Bad things only appear to much if the game turns into routine.

4 months is to much to handle with just nerfs and tavern brawl isn't a engaging content.

Blizzard needs to stop to think that free stuff is a event by itself.

Know what can be a event for example:
A strong PvE boss that you play in constructed mode.

I'm not against more easy events for new players too but the people who most need events are the ones getting bored and not who just starded to play yesterday.
I assume my guilty, after they destroyed druid, I gave up from Standard Ranked, then I thought, let's go in Standard Casual and few moments in Wild Ranked or Wild Casual, the game still is fun ... innocent soul was I ... full of bots for Blizzard's diversion ...

:(
So is it my fault that I feel the two nerfs were pointless and made the meta less diverse, destroyed Druid and shaman??

If the game designers are reacting to community backlash and not having a long term plan on balance then they shouldn’t be a game designer.

And Zihi does not stop all the combo decks out there. So how is that my fault?
02/24/2019 10:38 AMPosted by jawsofwar
So is it my fault that I feel the two nerfs were pointless and made the meta less diverse, destroyed Druid and shaman??

If the game designers are reacting to community backlash and not having a long term plan on balance then they shouldn’t be a game designer.

And Zihi does not stop all the combo decks out there. So how is that my fault?
Dude your issue is you think it is reasonable to have your deck answer EVERY DECK OUT THERE. You make certain design choices you get certain consequences. Fact no one uses Zihi proves Lykotic's point btw, it is a wonderfully designed card that universally hinders combo, but because it doesn't outright win on the spot people pretend it isn't there.
02/24/2019 10:43 AMPosted by Hazama
02/24/2019 10:38 AMPosted by jawsofwar
So is it my fault that I feel the two nerfs were pointless and made the meta less diverse, destroyed Druid and shaman??

If the game designers are reacting to community backlash and not having a long term plan on balance then they shouldn’t be a game designer.

And Zihi does not stop all the combo decks out there. So how is that my fault?
Dude your issue is you think it is reasonable to have your deck answer EVERY DECK OUT THERE. You make certain design choices you get certain consequences. Fact no one uses Zihi proves Lykotic's point btw, it is a wonderfully designed card that universally hinders combo, but because it doesn't outright win on the spot people pretend it isn't there.


Where did I say my deck must answer everything? Reason people don’t use Zihi is because it doesn’t work in most decks.
02/24/2019 09:48 AMPosted by Swift
The real issue is legitimately bad game design.


<span class="truncated">...</span>

BAM, enough said +1

(But Swift, we're dealing with the presumptions and assumptions of the average HS player that chooses to frequent these forums. The "truth" you speak of will mostly fall on "deaf ears" unfortunately as it doesn't support the "agenda's" of the "average HS player that chooses to frequent these forums"...)

I'll give you an example of why you're both wrong and right:

We don't have some legitimate tools we should probably have and that I can agree with but.... also there are tools a lot of us are not seemingly attempting to use.

Let's look at one of the primary hated decks right now in Gallery/Wall Priest (Resurrect mechanic) there are decks and cards not being used a lot that harm this strategy:

Neutral Cards that Harm the resurrect pool (Standard):
Gravelsnout Knight
Saronite Taskmaster
Marsh Drake (worse of the bunch)
Muck Hunter
Hungry Ettin (I have seen this in fairness)
Marin

Class Cards that Harm the Resurrect Pool (Standard):
Cornered Sentry
Treachery (poorly)

Especially looking at Taskmaster, Gravelsnout, and is a lesser degree Ettin and Muck Hunter those are decent tech options in Control against the Resurrect mechanic. In addition I am shocked that we haven't seen more 'normal' Warrior (probably Quest) being played as it does VERY WELL against Odd Paladin (#3 deck) and has a lot of tools to harm Gallery (#8) and Wall (#2) decks. I can't comment on how it would do against Secret Odd Mage as I haven't faced that deck enough with enough repetitiveness to have a good feel for it and the deck would probably struggle a bit against MR Hunter because of DK Rexxar.


Okay, I'll engage with you however I must state it will probably be a waste of my time.

1) Your guilt forces you to say there is bad game design/lack of tech choices since you're trying to portray yourself as an honest person. However, your support over the current status quo also implies you indeed like the current system as is as it furthers your own "agenda".

2) Limiting people to using "anti-meta/combo" decks further restricts deck building.

3) I haven't kept exact numbers but this month alone since coming back from a 7 month long break from the game and playing for about a week, I'm running into combo decks nearly half the time. It's that widespread, so widespread I'm having to add tech cards to my decks to even stand a chance.

4) This current meta promotes 4 archtypes IMHO: Combo, OTK, Aggro and finally "anti-meta/combo" decks. That's not a healthy diverse meta, there is a better way.

5) "I win" cards with no counter measures is a broken archtype, adding more "broken" archtypes to compete with aforementioned ones isn't fixing the problem, it's adding layers to already existing problem ;). Bubbles burst once they've become overinflated, this anti-current meta sentiment running rampant among a lot of forum goers is just the icing on the cake. Imagine how many more exist that DON'T frequent these forums ;). This current problem with the current meta is being understated to the extreme IMHO for whatever that's worth to you.

Last but not least, 6) If there were counters to every "broken" archtype available in game, none of us would be here... Then HS would really be more of a skill based game then that of a RNG/full card collection/etc type of game. People are only voicing their opinions/rants because the current meta with what's available is unfavorable to most players and promotes an unhealthy meta, one that cannot continue to go on left unchecked with no repercussions whatsoever due to it. Bad things will continue to happen, people will continue to voice their opinions, HS will continue to bleed players.

This is a fair point and is an issue in CCGs. There are some easy techs dust wise (silences) but others are demanding a lot to budget individuals.


Which makes the game p2w, you need a lot of dust, which you must buy packs and dust the cards you don't need in order to craft ALL tech cards you will/might need. This current meta supports that which will infuriate the f2p base, best keep the f2p's happy or the game dies.

This game desperately needs balancing, they got 'til April to do so otherwise, more players will leave. Then the question becomes, how many players have to quit before HS ultimately reaches its demise? A video game shouldn't be this polarizing, at least that's my opinion on the matter.

Cheers o/
02/24/2019 09:38 AMPosted by Lykotic
I’ll include myself in that group as after the past few months my literal thought (and what spurred me debating this post for awhile) is:

“why bother putting the hours tweaking as another nerf is coming soon anyways”


Just to be fair though.
1. Most players dont have a huge collection. In order to create a good deck you must first have the cards and then try it out on the ladder to see if it works. Now can anyone simply spent dust on tryouts? Old decks used to cost about 4k dust while nowdays decks cost 10k dust simply cause the powerlvl is huge.
2. Blizzards idea of changing the meta is always about nerfing things/ destroying decks and archetypes. This is what suits them financially. Had this game been about players satisfaction they would also buff things or maybe release a few free meta changer cards between expansions
3. The fact that its hard to create counter meta decks in Hs can also be seen by streamers/ proffesional players. How many streamers/proffesional players play anti- meta decks to climb the ladder?
4. Expansions like Un'goro had an everlasting changing meta simply cause they were nicely designed. Can we say the same about the current ones?

At the end of the day when im not satisfied with a game as much as i used to be in the past i can just look for external answers and not in myself.
02/24/2019 10:48 AMPosted by jawsofwar
Where did I say my deck must answer everything?


02/24/2019 10:38 AMPosted by jawsofwar
And Zihi does not stop all the combo decks out there. So how is that my fault?


In fairness, you didn't say your deck must answer "everything." Just all combo decks.
02/24/2019 10:38 AMPosted by jawsofwar
So is it my fault that I feel the two nerfs were pointless and made the meta less diverse, destroyed Druid and shaman??

If the game designers are reacting to community backlash and not having a long term plan on balance then they shouldn’t be a game designer.

And Zihi does not stop all the combo decks out there. So how is that my fault?


02/24/2019 10:48 AMPosted by jawsofwar
02/24/2019 10:43 AMPosted by Hazama
... Dude your issue is you think it is reasonable to have your deck answer EVERY DECK OUT THERE. You make certain design choices you get certain consequences. Fact no one uses Zihi proves Lykotic's point btw, it is a wonderfully designed card that universally hinders combo, but because it doesn't outright win on the spot people pretend it isn't there.


Where did I say my deck must answer everything? Reason people don’t use Zihi is because it doesn’t work in most decks.
Bruh. Read your posts lol. Here. "And Zihi does not stop all the combo decks out there. So how is that my fault?" That clearly indicates you expect counters to all combo decks. You as a control player are already favored against aggro, so you should ALSO be able to halt all combo? O_0 Please clarify.
First, I do not fully understand what the OP convey in his post.
(However, below is the main point that speaks to me)
Ranging from legend level players to Rank 20 players I think a major issue that feels it has picked up recently isn’t the game but the collective player base (or at least boards) willingness to adapt to a meta and attack it.

To me, if I look at the game a few years back and now, the core mechanics remains the same, e.g. Deathrattle, Battlecry, etc. But, the design philosophy seems to have change quite a drastic bit.

Recent designs seems to be at loggerhead with the design philosophy of the cards from much earlier.
Where basic/classic cards aims to be the base of a class identity and to avoid reprints of similar future cards. Meanwhile, we see new cards was also introduced that blurs the balance of how each class are balanced initially based on both the basic/classic set and new cards.
The new cards brings new freshness to each class as they are able to break away from their initial class design restrictions. But in the process, the "balance" is disrupted. In order to impose back that "balance", classic/basic cards are targeted.

It resulted in a dilemma where it seems that we cannot go back to the state of the game where veteran are accustomed to, nor can we go forward to a setting we are comfortable with (especially in the WILD mode)

To make worse, Nerfs/HOF has been "accepted" as a acceptable solution by both dev/majority of players. A design can be release that can "ignore" future implication, until it reaches it end of life, where thereafter be nerf or HOF.
e.g. taking example of Patches.

Also subtly stated by some above. Current design have made solution finding more restrictive. The days where Loatheb can be used across multiple class/decks, now we see one 1 class having a card of similar effect.

In my opinion, the major issue is that many players are at a loss. Communication between Dev and players has not been strong. Players do not know how will the game develop going forward, and thus unable to strategically plan on how they can cope/adapt accordingly.
02/24/2019 10:56 AMPosted by Hazama
02/24/2019 10:38 AMPosted by jawsofwar
So is it my fault that I feel the two nerfs were pointless and made the meta less diverse, destroyed Druid and shaman??

If the game designers are reacting to community backlash and not having a long term plan on balance then they shouldn’t be a game designer.

And Zihi does not stop all the combo decks out there. So how is that my fault?


02/24/2019 10:48 AMPosted by jawsofwar
...

Where did I say my deck must answer everything? Reason people don’t use Zihi is because it doesn’t work in most decks.
Bruh. Read your posts lol. Here. "And Zihi does not stop all the combo decks out there. So how is that my fault?" That clearly indicates you expect counters to all combo decks. You as a control player are already favored against aggro, so you should ALSO be able to halt all combo? O_0 Please clarify.


I don't expect a deck to answer everything but there are quite a few combo decks out there that aren't stopped by having zihi in your deck.

But I guess that is my fault as the player and not the game designer right?

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