Why is "AFK until I OTK" even allowed to exist?

Play Mode Discussion
Devil's advocate, OTK keeps control in check. Midrange can as well, but it isn't as reliable.

Compare OTK to odd warrior, which just armors up and plays taunts and removal until you run out of cards and fatigue to death. It's a tough call, but I prefer OTK by a little bit. It isn't as slow or soulcrushing and there is generally a chance to beat them by playing more aggressively than usual.

Edit: I should add that OTK should NEVER be tier 1. It should at best be tier 2 to counter a control heavy meta.
02/08/2019 05:20 PMPosted by Right
02/08/2019 02:44 PMPosted by Tman15tmb
... What the heck are you rambling about? If you need someone to talk to I can assure you that I'm probably the last person you want to vent to. I'd try another thread.


I have an idea. If you don't want people responding to things you say... shut your mouth!

Try it!
Naw, I'm good. Thanks for the suggestion though. Once you get to know me you'll realise I'm a blunt jerk that doesn't care to hear people moan and whine.
02/08/2019 09:46 PMPosted by Tman15tmb
02/08/2019 05:20 PMPosted by Right
...

I have an idea. If you don't want people responding to things you say... shut your mouth!

Try it!
Naw, I'm good. Thanks for the suggestion though. Once you get to know me you'll realise I'm a blunt jerk that doesn't care to hear people moan and whine.


For someone who hates whiners you sure have done a lot of it yourself in the past.
Here's the thing. OTK decks are either combo decks or combo-control decks. Combo decks or combo-control decks are about card draw.

You draw X cards. Usually by the time you draw the Xth card, you have drawn the combo. You play the combo. You win. The question is:

What's the value of X?

If X is 15, that means the deck must draw 5 extra cards to play the OTK on turn 10 or stall to turn 15 with no additional draw.

If X is 20, that means the deck must draw 10 extra cards to play the OTK on turn 10 or stall to turn 20 with no additional draw.

If X is 25, that means the deck must draw 15 extra cards to play the OTK on turn 10 or stall to turn 25 with no additional draw.

If X is 27, that means the deck must draw their whole deck to play the OTK on turn 10 or stall to turn 27 with no additional draw.

If X is 10, that means the deck must draw 0 extra cards to play the OTK on turn 10 or stall to turn 10 with no additional draw.

Which do you prefer?
02/08/2019 10:02 PMPosted by Bowser
02/08/2019 09:46 PMPosted by Tman15tmb
... Naw, I'm good. Thanks for the suggestion though. Once you get to know me you'll realise I'm a blunt jerk that doesn't care to hear people moan and whine.


For someone who hates whiners you sure have done a lot of it yourself in the past.


It's only whining, when others do it. When you do it yourself it's constructive feedback.
I like combo decks because it manages to keep control decks in check. In the old days, it was painful playing control priest against Tempo rogue and murloc paladin. With that said, combo deck doesn’t have to be OTK. What I am trying to say here is that we don’t necessarily need to have OTK decks to keep control decks in check. In fact, some midrange decks in the past also worked well against control decks. Midrange paladin vs. control warrior is a classic example.

OTK deck can be fun but when it becomes too consistent, it just creates a problem. Against aggro or control, it’s the same strategy. As long as it manages to stall for long enough and have the conditions met, the deck automatically wins. And this is the problem this meta presents and that’s why the non-interactiveness makes the meta less fun.
02/08/2019 04:40 PMPosted by Phobetor
I find it unsettling that there is absolutely no trace of self-awareness in the heavily biased control players when they complain about combo decks, not only because their play style also completely removes meaningful interaction when facing aggro (and midrange these days, for that matter), but also because combo decks' ability to stall and survive ("AFK") is consequent of broken control tools adopted by said combo decks.

No, you do not deserve free wins against an archetype to which your own should be vulnerable, especially when the alternative of midrange is completely marginalized (Standard) or outright dead (Wild); and no, you do not get to decide what is and is not fun for other players.

If you want to crush aggro decks in ridiculously polarized match-ups and not even worry about midrange decks posing a threat, then you will also have to accept that combo decks will obliterate you with equal dichotomy. The playerbase had at least two-and-a-half control metagames in a row, and now combo-control and combo has finally begun to fill in the vacuum to address the previously unchecked prevalence of control.


You realize mid range is now totally dead thanks to OTK, outside of Hunter but that's only carried by how broken Hunter is (and even then, Hunter Midrange decks are falling down)
02/08/2019 10:10 AMPosted by Schyla
Even if we take into account that we could tech against these types of decks, why do we even allow these types of things to exist?

You can play several decks right now that have very close to sometimes zero interaction with your opponent or the opponent's minions.

Why? Why allow the ability for decks to exist that don't actually rely on you playing the core part of Hearthstone?

I'm not trying to be salty, I have my decks that almost never lose to these types of decks, but the fact they even exist truly takes away from the game.

If you look at Mecha'thun warlock for example, a deck I could beat up on all day and wish I faced nothing but this deck, it is still a deck that interacts with its OWN minions more than yours. It mortal coils and spellstones its own minions very often. It doesn't need hardly any interaction with your decks at all.
this is the worst hearthstone has ever been for crap like that. Fun and interactive is most certainly not blizzards slogan anymore.
02/08/2019 10:50 AMPosted by RhokDelar
02/08/2019 10:33 AMPosted by Right
Exactly.

There shouldn't be a scenerio where you can afford to take turns 1-5 off, wipe the board, go get a soda, take turns 6-7 off, wipe the board, go take a crap. Then come back and play 3 cards and OTK.

or better yet, get the soda and take a crap while you still play because you guys have phones right?

I actually do have phone and do that :P
But yea it was funny :P
02/08/2019 09:46 PMPosted by Tman15tmb
02/08/2019 05:20 PMPosted by Right
...

I have an idea. If you don't want people responding to things you say... shut your mouth!

Try it!
Naw, I'm good. Thanks for the suggestion though. Once you get to know me you'll realise I'm a blunt jerk that doesn't care to hear people moan and whine.


So why do you come to, and then post on, these forums?

You're not too bright...are you?

Let me guess... most things you do begin with "HOLD MY BEER!"
<span class="truncated">...</span> Naw, I'm good. Thanks for the suggestion though. Once you get to know me you'll realise I'm a blunt jerk that doesn't care to hear people moan and whine.


For someone who hates whiners you sure have done a lot of it yourself in the past.
Examples?
02/09/2019 06:11 AMPosted by Right
<span class="truncated">...</span> Naw, I'm good. Thanks for the suggestion though. Once you get to know me you'll realise I'm a blunt jerk that doesn't care to hear people moan and whine.


So why do you come to, and then post on, these forums?

You're not too bright...are you?

Let me guess... most things you do begin with "HOLD MY BEER!"
Entertainment. I think it's both hilarious and sad that people think they can come on the forums and start crying. If you make constructive points than I'm all for a good discussion but if you choose to start crying or throw a tantrum then you are setting yourself up to get railed.

Also if it makes you feel warm and fuzzy feel free to smash the downvote button lol. Whatever makes you sleep better at night.
I used to think that raging worgen OTK was fun when it was a thing forever ago.

But OTK does get boring incredibly quick and to me I like to play them for the gimmick for maybe 1 or 2 games then when I've had my fun I switch back to playing my main deck which is control priest at the moment.

I will never understand people that can play OTK all the time. How the deck is played/how you win is the same every time it would seem really repetitive.
02/09/2019 11:31 AMPosted by Harrop123
I used to think that raging worgen OTK was fun when it was a thing forever ago.

But OTK does get boring incredibly quick and to me I like to play them for the gimmick for maybe 1 or 2 games then when I've had my fun I switch back to playing my main deck which is control priest at the moment.

I will never understand people that can play OTK all the time. How the deck is played/how you win is the same every time it would seem really repetitive.


It depends on the deck.

Holy Wrath Paladin could win with Shirvallah OTK, with the Four Horsemen and against Aggro you could win with a good Sunkeeper Tarim turn, a giant Lynessa (in that version) or running the opponent out of resources.

I can't count the times I won with Malygos Druid with Branching Paths for +2 Attack and simple face damage. Alex + some board as well gets the job done.
Togwaggle Druid could do plenty of crazy stuff, in some matchups you would switch as quickly as possible, not on fatigue.

Those decks and a few others were very versatile and depending how well you understood the deck and the matchups, you could win in crazy ways.

But Mecha'thun Warlock/Priest/Druid and Gallery/Wall/APM Priest do feel very one dimensional with very little versatility or room for improvisation.
02/08/2019 10:10 AMPosted by Schyla
Even if we take into account that we could tech against these types of decks, why do we even allow these types of things to exist?

If any deck can AFK against you and then win in a single turn, that loss is entirely upon your shoulders.

Playing removal, defensive minions, cycling through the deck and trading is not the same as being AFK. AFK is an acronym for Away From Keyboard, ie. not present and not doing anything at all. While OTK decks may not bother going face or at times not even attack, they still do something most turns. They almost certainly have to unless their combo sits in their hand and they're just waiting to have enough mana to pull it off.

Whether OTK decks are interesting to play against or not is an entirely different matter. Some OTK decks are built just to stall out the game, which can lead to a very boring experience for their opponent. Other OTK decks do interact heavily with the opponent and their minions, which can lead to interesting games for both players.

I do play Wild almost exclusively, so there are tools to mess with OTK decks (Dirty Rat being a somewhat popular inclusion).
If you haven't damaged your opponent (their life at 30 or more at the beginning of your turn, ignoring armor) you shouldn't be able to win this turn.

This stops start aligner druid otk, maly druid otk, maly priest otk, mech'thun otk, exodia mage otk. Maybe a few others.

I remember the devs saying they wanted player interaction. They nerfed FoN/SR combo and you needed to get your opponent to 15 life for that one to work. But somehow, getting a few scorc apprentice, taking an extra turn and going infinite fireball is OK.

All the otk's I listed above kill a player from full health, from an empty board, requiring nothing more than a bunch of stall. Screw that.

Un-nerf warsong commander and let's play grim patron otk again.
02/10/2019 07:44 AMPosted by URjustSOL
If you haven't damaged your opponent (their life at 30 or more at the beginning of your turn, ignoring armor) you shouldn't be able to win this turn.

This stops start aligner druid otk, maly druid otk, maly priest otk, mech'thun otk, exodia mage otk. Maybe a few others.

I remember the devs saying they wanted player interaction. They nerfed FoN/SR combo and you needed to get your opponent to 15 life for that one to work. But somehow, getting a few scorc apprentice, taking an extra turn and going infinite fireball is OK.

All the otk's I listed above kill a player from full health, from an empty board, requiring nothing more than a bunch of stall. Screw that.

Un-nerf warsong commander and let's play grim patron otk again.


I just faced a Druid that stalled and stalled with tons of armor, card draw, and removal, but was getting close to fatigue, and had too many cards in their hand for them to play Mechathun before I killed them. So then, one turn they play Dreampetal Florist, then the next played King Togwaggle, followed by a reduced-cost Azalina Soulthief. I didn't realize how effed I was until they re-swapped my deck back again, because Soulthief had copied the "Swap your deck with your opponent's" card that had been in my effing hand! Left me to die from fatigue.

I've played this game for a while, but that was the first person I ever roped.
02/10/2019 08:07 AMPosted by QuakerPimp
02/10/2019 07:44 AMPosted by URjustSOL
If you haven't damaged your opponent (their life at 30 or more at the beginning of your turn, ignoring armor) you shouldn't be able to win this turn.

This stops start aligner druid otk, maly druid otk, maly priest otk, mech'thun otk, exodia mage otk. Maybe a few others.

I remember the devs saying they wanted player interaction. They nerfed FoN/SR combo and you needed to get your opponent to 15 life for that one to work. But somehow, getting a few scorc apprentice, taking an extra turn and going infinite fireball is OK.

All the otk's I listed above kill a player from full health, from an empty board, requiring nothing more than a bunch of stall. Screw that.

Un-nerf warsong commander and let's play grim patron otk again.


I just faced a Druid that stalled and stalled with tons of armor, card draw, and removal, but was getting close to fatigue, and had too many cards in their hand for them to play Mechathun before I killed them. So then, one turn they play Dreampetal Florist, then the next played King Togwaggle, followed by a reduced-cost Azalina Soulthief. I didn't realize how effed I was until they re-swapped my deck back again, because Soulthief had copied the "Swap your deck with your opponent's" card that had been in my effing hand! Left me to die from fatigue.

I've played this game for a while, but that was the first person I ever roped.


That's a wierd combo deck, but you died in fatigue, not in one turn from ungodly amounts of damage "out of nowhere". You replied to my post with a completely unrelated deck example.
That's a wierd combo deck, but you died in fatigue, not in one turn from ungodly amounts of damage "out of nowhere". You replied to my post with a completely unrelated deck example.


I suppose you are right... but at the point they swapped decks back, they'd basically won the game, right? And it took a whole game of stalling, with barely any minion/minion interactions. I suppose I was simply trying to find similarities in the playstyle of annoying stall decks.
02/10/2019 08:43 AMPosted by QuakerPimp
That's a wierd combo deck, but you died in fatigue, not in one turn from ungodly amounts of damage "out of nowhere". You replied to my post with a completely unrelated deck example.


I suppose you are right... but at the point they swapped decks back, they'd basically won the game, right? And it took a whole game of stalling, with barely any minion/minion interactions. I suppose I was simply trying to find similarities in the playstyle of annoying stall decks.


You're right, that deck is also in the "AFK till I OTK (win)" class of decks.

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