Why do the devs make the game about anything but minion combat?

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Combo combo combo, janky reno deck, removal removal removal removal etc. Etc.

You thought hearthstone was a skillful minion-combat based game..you thought wrong.

What i think is an accurate box-discription of HS:
“Hearthstone is a spellcasting based, combo-oriented digital trading card game. Images depicting minions/creatures/characters engaging in combat are not representative of the actual matches. Images not real gameplay.”
02/18/2019 05:49 AMPosted by Tyani
Combo combo combo, janky reno deck, removal removal removal removal etc. Etc.

You thought hearthstone was a skillful minion-combat based game..you thought wrong.

What i think is an accurate box-discription of HS:
“Hearthstone is a spellcasting based, combo-oriented digital trading card game. Images depicting minions/creatures/characters engaging in combat are not representative of the actual matches. Images not real gameplay.”


And yet....you see all these complaint threads about Beast/Midrange/Spellhunter...all they ever do is summon minions to the board.
Well, the best answer to that is that the designers are not very experienced in their field. Both Peter Whalen and Dean Ayala admited they don't have good measures to judge power level and impact of the cards they are designing/releasing. They are just learning their trade.

Given them few years to get some experience.

Jokes aside, HS team is basicallly repeating the same mistakes that has been by MTG team 20 years ago. Balancing a CCG is a very difficult task, even more difficult if you are being pushed by Marketing Department.

Overall it isn't bad, just a bit too high powered at the moment, but it looks like Team 5 is looking at depowering Standard with the rotation, release of next expansion and possible nerf to Genn and Baku. Give them some benefit of doubt.
02/18/2019 05:57 AMPosted by Gwyneth
02/18/2019 05:49 AMPosted by Tyani
Combo combo combo, janky reno deck, removal removal removal removal etc. Etc.

You thought hearthstone was a skillful minion-combat based game..you thought wrong.

What i think is an accurate box-discription of HS:
“Hearthstone is a spellcasting based, combo-oriented digital trading card game. Images depicting minions/creatures/characters engaging in combat are not representative of the actual matches. Images not real gameplay.”


And yet....you see all these complaint threads about Beast/Midrange/Spellhunter...all they ever do is summon minions to the board.


Except those are all decks that combo, use spells to combo or basicly continiously go face. So...my point still stands :P

Summoning minions doesn’t matter, there’s no minion combat at the core :(
Cmon Gwyn. You know that. Spell Rex is like one of the few decks that doesn't include minons. It's the only one I can think of.

DK rex is a minion card, off a hero power, and it's slotted in like every Hunter deck its so OP it basically goes in Odd Hunter.

"Midrange" Hunter is aggro hunter, meaning Razor/Houndmaster snowball-core.

That deck contains...1 costs, 2 costs Razormaw the deck's chestpiece, Houndmaster, And like sometimes Rhino. So it's absolutely not about combat face is the p right?

Old Freeze Mage when it was cool because it used limited damage and needed Emperor was an awesome deck pre 2018-game-boost. That deck didn't have so many mins and also went straight-face when it didn't AoE.

OP is right this game has def turned away from minion into minion, aggro-matchups being an exception, or like most-deck's 1-2-3 cost draw cards into those 1-2-3 cost draw cards for trades.

Part of this is Shaman's boxed out of the game.
Zoo isn't this dominant fast-deck like it used to be, run your opponent out of resources right? Well stuff like DK Rex is infi-fuel.

The posts that are like so defensive of the game catergorizing criticism as 'complaint threads' instead of 'justifiable slash understandable slash agreeable 'complaint' threads".

Like the defensive tone casts criticism of HS as 'complaining' and 'bad' and 'in the wrong'. And that's not cool is it ever ok to repeatedly bring up probs w the game...if those probs are in fact true-probs?

Like soo many people are on the "another complaint thread" instead of "yea, I agree and concede that Hearthstone has some big probs, and won't defend that".
02/18/2019 06:07 AMPosted by Tyani
02/18/2019 05:57 AMPosted by Gwyneth
...

And yet....you see all these complaint threads about Beast/Midrange/Spellhunter...all they ever do is summon minions to the board.


Except those are all decks that combo, use spells to combo or basicly continiously go face. So...my point still stands :P

Summoning minions doesn’t matter, there’s no minion combat at the core :(
Those hunter decks are in no way combos, they might have cards that work well together, but it's not combo, silly.
02/18/2019 06:08 AMPosted by Thorodan
Cmon Gwyn. You know that. Spell Rex is like one of the few decks that doesn't include minons. It's the only one I can think of.

DK rex is a minion card, off a hero power, and it's slotted in like every Hunter deck its so OP it basically goes in Odd Hunter.

"Midrange" Hunter is aggro hunter, meaning Razor/Houndmaster snowball-core.

That deck contains...1 costs, 2 costs Razormaw the deck's chestpiece, Houndmaster, And like sometimes Rhino. So it's absolutely not about combat face is the p right?

Old Freeze Mage when it was cool because it used limited damage and needed Emperor was an awesome deck pre 2018-game-boost. That deck didn't have so many mins and also went straight-face when it didn't AoE.

OP is right this game has def turned away from minion into minion, aggro-matchups being an exception, or like most-deck's 1-2-3 cost draw cards into those 1-2-3 cost draw cards for trades.

Part of this is Shaman's boxed out of the game.
Zoo isn't this dominant fast-deck like it used to be, run your opponent out of resources right? Well stuff like DK Rex is infi-fuel.

The posts that are like so defensive of the game catergorizing criticism as 'complaint threads' instead of 'justifiable slash understandable slash agreeable 'complaint' threads".

Like the defensive tone casts criticism of HS as 'complaining' and 'bad' and 'in the wrong'. And that's not cool is it ever ok to repeatedly bring up probs w the game...if those probs are in fact true-probs?

Like soo many people are on the "another complaint thread" instead of "yea, I agree and concede that Hearthstone has some big probs, and won't defend that".


They're not combos - its synergy. They synergies well together and if you clear the board or the hunter loses board control, they pretty much lost.

Freeze Mage was dumb. There was no way to interact whatsoever. It was winnable and then glyph happened allowing for MORE ice blocks.

DK Rexxar's hero power is to literally create minions. How much more interaction do you need? Have you tried adding some early game? Teaching in a silence or an ooze? Using your removal wisely?

Also, this is what happens when every class and archetype has late game tools that offer infinite value. (Death Knights)

I honestly believe once they are gone, the game will be in a much better state. Instead of pointing fingers at aggro, combo, or otk, why not point the finger at the Death Knights that made all of this possible?

Before, you won or you lost and you moved on - players are frustrated because they can't cut a freaking break.

There isn't a healthy mix up of matches anymore. I haven't been able to climb because in the time it takes me to win 3 matches, I am losing 1 match and there goes my play session.

I don't have six hours to sit here and lose three matches. Instead of seeing the usual pattern of tempo mage/aggro in r20 ranks, I'm seeing Mechathun Warlocks and Druids. Dragon Warriors. Wall Priests.

I barely log in to play my quests and that's pretty much it because I can't sit here and lose all day, every day. I especially can't sit here and lose to Mechathun nonsense. I don't have it in me anymore.

The metagame is so horrible and is even causing the sweetest people I have ever met in my life to become salty and disappointed. It's okay for me to be salty or whatever but when it starts impacting my friends, then there we have a problem.

We're ALL frustrated and desperate for rotation. Blaming this archetype or that deck isn't going to make rotation get here any faster.
Choose your hatred:

Fast meta - brainless aggro!
Slow meta - snorefest control!
OTK meta - uninteractive AFK!
Midrange meta - no fun curvestone!
Choose your hatred:

Midrange meta - no fun curvestone!


but i unironically enjoy midrange metas
02/18/2019 05:49 AMPosted by Tyani
Combo combo combo, janky reno deck, removal removal removal removal etc. Etc.

You thought hearthstone was a skillful minion-combat based game..you thought wrong.

What i think is an accurate box-discription of HS:
“Hearthstone is a spellcasting based, combo-oriented digital trading card game. Images depicting minions/creatures/characters engaging in combat are not representative of the actual matches. Images not real gameplay.”


You forgot Solitaire. Even though it s 2 player game. You basically for most part of the game just watch a guy play out his wombo combo, armor infinity till dooms day, or some other janky meta.
02/18/2019 11:22 AMPosted by Sikon
Choose your hatred:

Midrange meta - no fun curvestone!


but i unironically enjoy midrange metas

I don't particularòy mind any of them (though I do have a preference for faster matches).
My point was merely that any meta you can have will find people decrying it as the "worst meta ever" and "brainless/uninteractive/boring" regardless.
"Why do the devs make the game about anything but minion combat?"

Because the players asked for it.

Before standard, constructed HS used to be not so different from arena and some tavern brawls, where fighting for board and minion combat is still a thing from almost the first turn. This in turn made it more difficult to run combo decks or even control decks (since your deck can't afford that many combo pieces... you need to run some early minions and stuff)

...but the players often ridiculed that HS back in the day as "curvestone" or "tempostone" (Morthasa alluded to it)

With introduction of standard, Bliz had the opportunity to change the paradigm of HS (perhaps continuously as sets rotate), and since then, or at least at the moment, they slowly moved away from that "tempostone".

Here's a video that touched on the subject of HS before standard and after standard (and why consecration, a card that was made for pre-standard HS, is nerfed for the post-standard HS)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=77Mia_e31-0
I think the biggest offender amongst the dev, regarding the state of the game right now, is Ben Brode, who jumped ship at the right time (before the awful YOTM power creep got under the spotlight).

People here are saying bad things about current devs but remember, Ungoro, Frozen Throne and Kobolds have added so many problematic cards that current devs can't seem to make any changes that would effectively make the game any better. Brode had a great personality but it was all flash and no substance, in the end, he harmed the game with adding all the cool stuffz (Death Knights, legendary weapons, quests) and subsequently, devs need to balance all this broken !@#$ that aren't fun anymore, once the novelty is gone. To me, that's the definition of lackadaisical direction, one that fixes things when the hype train has passed. Things should've been ironed out on the design table, but nope, we're close to the rotation of these cards and they're still problematic. But fanboys like Brode, and I just don't get it.
I'm currently sitting at around 9100 wins, probably double that with games played, to address the OP.

I see the game in it's current state to have a 3 fold problem.

1)The devs of Hearthstone generate a card base with intentional and sometimes un-intentional interactions in mind. Specific combos, either spell or minion based. With the introduction of DK's the game has shifted, to cater to the "afraid to lose" player base. It's unhealthy.

2) The community itself have almost zero deck creativity. At least in my experience thus far. It's a game based off of a select group of streamers or Youtubers who showcase overpowered decks that get copied instantly and drive this game into the ground. There are almost 2000 cards in the pool to choose from, but a large portion of the community, to afraid to lose a game, don't try new archetypes. "Well if it wins why not play it." right?

3)Lack of incentive. The only incentive in Ranked is just that, to rank. When investing in Casual the only incentive is to have fun. That is slowly being eroded with repetitive combo style decks that rely on certain cards to be played in a certain order to win. There is zero incentive to complete matches, daily's don't offer enough, there is no other driving factor to play other than to have fun. Which is difficult to do... (see point 2)

It's a mix of Devs supplying certain deck builds, offering little to no incentive to experiment and have fun and the player base to afraid to lose a game and not experiment anymore. DK's are a very good example of this as well. I play strictly Casual Wild. I run a Beast/Reno/Malchezar Deck type with Grim Patron. Whatever happened to Grim Patron..
Do you want the real answer or the one people give to please themselves?

Well i'm gonna assume you want truth so be prepared.

Things like that happen when a company is so greedy that it does whatever players want without think on the impact on the game.
Long time ago that game used to have decks like pirate warrior that pressure people so much that games could end on turn 5 consistently but people got really salt about it and blizzard gave up to the pressure.

Day by day they started to nerf every snowballing strategy while giving more and more extreme stall tools.

So thanks to it we have real dificult to pressure the oponent and OTK decks got here as the counter to control decks that are so stupid that you will be lucky if a minion survive enough to do a single attack.

Same for infinite value generators.

I'm hope you enjoy and learn the lesson from it. So now any player with any sense should buy that fight not because of any personal hatred.

But because enough is enough and hearthstone is more fun when you actually play instead of watch board clear and OTK animations.

That is why we need our snowballing cards to be printed again.
Because minion based combat is fun and interactive and its clear thaey DONT want that. They want unlimited removal, unlimited card draw, and unlimited healing. Then, you die. Boards are squeaky clean these days like all the time. Everything gets killed immediately unless you are playing hand barf paladin or maybe a Rogue deck that an keep up with removal but most cannot.

Play a guy = dead. Play two guys = Dead. Make a board = dead. Buff a guy = dead. Never ending removal. Its awful and disgusting.
The game officially lost its way when warsong commander was nerfed into oblivion to be worse than raid leader. A warrior class card worse than common neutral. This was proof in my mind they have no idea what they are doing. Why not make it 3/4? Why nerf cards into oblivion never to be seen again?
02/18/2019 06:54 PMPosted by Urza
The game officially lost its way when warsong commander was nerfed into oblivion to be worse than raid leader. A warrior class card worse than common neutral. This was proof in my mind they have no idea what they are doing. Why not make it 3/4? Why nerf cards into oblivion never to be seen again?


This. So much this.

What's the point in nerfing a card so much so that it is completely unplayable?

It just gives the impression of lazy design. "Rather than dealing with this card again in the future if we don't nerf it good enough, let's just nerf it to render in completely out of the realm of abuse because the card is so bad."

That thought process has plagued Hearthstone for a long, long time.
02/18/2019 07:05 PMPosted by Schyla
02/18/2019 06:54 PMPosted by Urza
The game officially lost its way when warsong commander was nerfed into oblivion to be worse than raid leader. A warrior class card worse than common neutral. This was proof in my mind they have no idea what they are doing. Why not make it 3/4? Why nerf cards into oblivion never to be seen again?


This. So much this.

What's the point in nerfing a card so much so that it is completely unplayable?

It just gives the impression of lazy design. "Rather than dealing with this card again in the future if we don't nerf it good enough, let's just nerf it to render in completely out of the realm of abuse because the card is so bad."

That thought process has plagued Hearthstone for a long, long time.


And yet here in this forum people are complaining because the Hunter and Paladin nerfs kept the classes viable.

The Paladin decks which BTW are the best according to multiple sources and win via minion combat. And of those the best one doesn’t use Genn or Baku, but it does uses the nerfed Call to Arms.
You want minion based trading combat....have you tried Arena?

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