Why do the devs make the game about anything but minion combat?

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The Paladin decks which BTW are the best according to multiple sources and win via minion combat. And of those the best one doesn’t use Genn or Baku, but it does uses the nerfed Call to Arms.


If by "minion combat" you mean hero powering every turn then yeah it's minion combat.

Seriously that deck is so unbalanced it's just stupid it's already been nerfed twice and still has an obscene winrate.

HS dev team is just not as good as many people would like them to be. They don't know how to control the meta of their own game, and they don't know what their playerbase wants.
02/18/2019 05:49 AMPosted by Tyani
Combo combo combo, janky reno deck, removal removal removal removal etc. Etc.

You thought hearthstone was a skillful minion-combat based game..you thought wrong.
Why SHOULD Hearthstone be only about "skillful minion combat"? Believe it or not this game is not only about minions. The main reason why I've liked Spell Hunter ever since Kobolds & Catacombs is because it's different. The idea of a deck with, technically no minions, and relied on secrets and spells was new and interesting to me.

Having multiple different ways to win a game is not inherently a bad thing. I can't see how it could be a bad thing.
02/18/2019 11:25 PMPosted by FMCorps
The Paladin decks which BTW are the best according to multiple sources and win via minion combat. And of those the best one doesn’t use Genn or Baku, but it does uses the nerfed Call to Arms.


If by "minion combat" you mean hero powering every turn then yeah it's minion combat.

Seriously that deck is so unbalanced it's just stupid it's already been nerfed twice and still has an obscene winrate.

HS dev team is just not as good as many people would like them to be. They don't know how to control the meta of their own game, and they don't know what their playerbase wants.


So you time traveled to the time after they nerfed Secret Paladin twice!!!

Please let me know which cards got nerfed!!!
02/18/2019 11:22 AMPosted by Sikon
Choose your hatred:

Midrange meta - no fun curvestone!


but i unironically enjoy midrange metas

That's because "mid-range meta" is all about judging when to sacrifice tempo for value and vice versa. Lot of small decisions that add up as the game progresses.

Therefore, I'd say that's where differences in skill really become apparent. Or, at least, transparent.
So you time traveled to the time after they nerfed Secret Paladin twice!!!

Please let me know which cards got nerfed!!


CTA was nerfed from 4>5

And the Level up was nerfed from 5 to 6.

I don't really get what you mean by secret pally time traveling.

Edit : ahh ok maybe meant that sometimes it's even that gets nerfed and sometimes it's odd and sometimes it's murlocs... But really it's all the same to me. Aggro pally completely spiralled out of control for a long long time now.
02/18/2019 01:23 PMPosted by Pariah
2) The community itself have almost zero deck creativity. At least in my experience thus far. It's a game based off of a select group of streamers or Youtubers who showcase overpowered decks that get copied instantly and drive this game into the ground. There are almost 2000 cards in the pool to choose from, but a large portion of the community, to afraid to lose a game, don't try new archetypes. "Well if it wins why not play it." right?


Couldn't agree more on that. So instead of trying to just rank up with a meta decks, I started playing troll decks to entertain myself. My current troll deck is Mill/N'Zoth Taunt Rogue. It is really fun to mill all those copy/pasta combo decks, and see them concede the moment their key card is burned. It is a an OK deck, with 58% Win rate at the moment, but only 40% win rate against aggro decks.

And it is exactly the type of deck that OP is talking about in this thread. Almost no minion combat, and Win condition is to Draw your opponent to death. And on occasion when that fails, the Trump strategy comes into play (Lets build a wall). Deathrattle Taunts with multiple N'Zoths to wall off against your opponent. Here is one of my favorite games with it.
https://hsreplay.net/replay/T8rhZyzvcVo8YA5LGwDDGH
02/19/2019 01:01 AMPosted by FMCorps
So you time traveled to the time after they nerfed Secret Paladin twice!!!

Please let me know which cards got nerfed!!


CTA was nerfed from 4>5

And the Level up was nerfed from 5 to 6.

I don't really get what you mean by secret pally time traveling.

Edit : ahh ok maybe meant that sometimes it's even that gets nerfed and sometimes it's odd and sometimes it's murlocs... But really it's all the same to me. Aggro pally completely spiralled out of control for a long long time now.


Secret Paladin doesn’t use Level Up!

Of course you didn’t time travel. You are just mixing up your facts.
02/18/2019 06:54 PMPosted by Urza
The game officially lost its way when warsong commander was nerfed into oblivion to be worse than raid leader. A warrior class card worse than common neutral. This was proof in my mind they have no idea what they are doing. Why not make it 3/4? Why nerf cards into oblivion never to be seen again?
To be fair, a 3-mana 3/4 with an upside for aggro decks is pretty far above the power curve for Classic cards.

I would have made it a 3/3, it would at least have a chance to see play in aggressive decks then.
Secret Paladin doesn’t use Level Up!


Unless I have a serious memory problem I never said such a thing... So I guess I'm not the one getting my facts wrong!
02/19/2019 03:59 AMPosted by FMCorps
Secret Paladin doesn’t use Level Up!


Unless I have a serious memory problem I never said such a thing... So I guess I'm not the one getting my facts wrong!


I mentioned 3 decks and specified the best one DIDN’T use Genn and Baku.

First thing you say in your response is “Hero powering every turn”. Later in the same response post you stated the deck was nerfed twice.

So you were never actually responding to my statement and had instead gone off a tangent about some other decks.

That’s why I sarcastically said you time traveled to the future were Secret Paladin was nerfed twice.
Fast meta - brainless aggro!
Slow meta - snorefest control!
OTK meta - uninteractive AFK!
Midrange meta - no fun curvestone!


This. The whiners have been blubbering about the meta (whatever it happens to be) since day 1. Whiners will whine because that's what whiners do.
02/19/2019 07:44 AMPosted by TheRiddler
Fast meta - brainless aggro!
Slow meta - snorefest control!
OTK meta - uninteractive AFK!
Midrange meta - no fun curvestone!


This. The whiners have been blubbering about the meta (whatever it happens to be) since day 1. Whiners will whine because that's what whiners do.
Personally, I prefer to wine.
02/19/2019 07:44 AMPosted by TheRiddler
Fast meta - brainless aggro!
Slow meta - snorefest control!
OTK meta - uninteractive AFK!
Midrange meta - no fun curvestone!


This. The whiners have been blubbering about the meta (whatever it happens to be) since day 1. Whiners will whine because that's what whiners do.


This is both true and an oversimplification of the core issue.

What Hearthstone has lacked since possible the first launch is a balanced meta that allows for breathing room for all archetypes. Right now it's basically a see-saw that shifts in one direction or another. Either it goes curvestone or it goes polar opposites (aggro/combo only).

People complain because they want a mix, and it has never really existed, which is very much a reflection of a young and inexperienced balance team. They can't control the meta.
People complain because they want a mix, and it has never really existed, which is very much a reflection of a young and inexperienced balance team. They can't control the meta.


There's some truth to this observation. However, it in itself is an oversimplification.

The whiners whining for a 'mixed' meta are talking as if such a thing is simple to do, easy to accomplish, and completely under the control of the dev team as if they have a digital lever that instantly and precisely dictates the exact percentage of Control, Combo, Aggro, and Mid decks. Such an expectation is - of course - complete and total nonsense.

Meta composition isn't simple. There's 9 different classes with hundreds of different cards in play. Wrap that into the dynamic where there's 4+ different archetypes which different players like for completely different reasons. There's a lot of parts to it.

Nor is moving the Meta's balance easy. Very tiny changes to very few cards will result in massive shifts. At the same time, the 3 expansion cycle is a slow process with definite touch points. So at the same exact time the meta reacts violently to the tiniest of adjustments .... while also being a sluggish, massive behemoth. It's like driving around a car with the responsiveness of a Sherman tank and the acceleration of a Lamborghini.

So Team5 is the one behind introducing the cards - which of course impacts the direction of a Meta. But they have no control whatsoever over what players will DO with those cards. They probably have a good idea of it, but it isn't like they have some sort of machine that says, "OK, reduce Combo by 0.0027% and adjust Control up by 1.78% while leaving Mid & Aggro static..." T5 couldn't do that sort of thing even if they wanted to.
02/19/2019 10:35 AMPosted by TheRiddler
People complain because they want a mix, and it has never really existed, which is very much a reflection of a young and inexperienced balance team. They can't control the meta.


There's some truth to this observation. However, it in itself is an oversimplification.

The whiners whining for a 'mixed' meta are talking as if such a thing is simple to do, easy to accomplish, and completely under the control of the dev team as if they have a digital lever that instantly and precisely dictates the exact percentage of Control, Combo, Aggro, and Mid decks. Such an expectation is - of course - complete and total nonsense.

Meta composition isn't simple. There's 9 different classes with hundreds of different cards in play. Wrap that into the dynamic where there's 4+ different archetypes which different players like for completely different reasons. There's a lot of parts to it.

Nor is moving the Meta's balance easy. Very tiny changes to very few cards will result in massive shifts. At the same time, the 3 expansion cycle is a slow process with definite touch points. So at the same exact time the meta reacts violently to the tiniest of adjustments .... while also being a sluggish, massive behemoth. It's like driving around a car with the responsiveness of a Sherman tank and the acceleration of a Lamborghini.

So Team5 is the one behind introducing the cards - which of course impacts the direction of a Meta. But they have no control whatsoever over what players will DO with those cards. They probably have a good idea of it, but it isn't like they have some sort of machine that says, "OK, reduce Combo by 0.0027% and adjust Control up by 1.78% while leaving Mid & Aggro static..." T5 couldn't do that sort of thing even if they wanted to.


But when every archetype is well represented as the post nerf Witchwood meta they will whine about polarized matchups.

So somehow there has to be control, combo, midrange, and aggro all equally represented that can’t counter each other to maintain 43-57 matchups.

Personally the best thing they can do is BO3 or BO5 format with 2/3 classes.
But when every archetype is well represented as the post nerf Witchwood meta they will whine about polarized matchups.


That's a good point. Even if (somehow) Team5 was able to theoretically achieve the perfect "mixed Meta" balance where all the deck archetypes were overall at a relative degree of parity there would still be the issue of specific deck polarization rates. The overall Meta mix of archetypes might be able to reach some degree of parity, but that doesn't mean individual deck matchups would be seen as "fair".

Basically, I think some folks want to ride a unicorn that does not exist and never HAS existed in any CCG ... physical or digital.
While I agree we need more anti combo tech (I say this as someone who loves combos) that doesn't outright win (that just flips the match, still polarized) I hate to tell you some of us want more than trading between whatever is the newest chillwind yeti. This is a FANTASY card game. Magic is a big part of it therefore cool and powerful spells are needed. Kinda a no brainer, sometimes people for flavor reasons like being the ultimate spellcaster.
02/19/2019 10:08 AMPosted by AlvasViseron
What Hearthstone has lacked since possible the first launch is a balanced meta that allows for breathing room for all archetypes. Right now it's basically a see-saw that shifts in one direction or another. Either it goes curvestone or it goes polar opposites (aggro/combo only).


The GPW era was actually pretty close to this with midrange (Druid), control (Warlock/Warrior) and combo (GPW) fairly equally represented at the top end of the scale. Aggro was suffering a bit, and GPW was definitely defining the meta, but due to its difficulty to pilot it was not as popular (I saw many poorly played GPW's at R5+, and couldnt play the deck to save my life myself) which gave a bit of breathing room for the other archetypes to exist.
02/18/2019 06:40 AMPosted by DictatorElmo
02/18/2019 06:07 AMPosted by Tyani
...

Except those are all decks that combo, use spells to combo or basicly continiously go face. So...my point still stands :P

Summoning minions doesn’t matter, there’s no minion combat at the core :(
Those hunter decks are in no way combos, they might have cards that work well together, but it's not combo, silly.

Who'd needs combo when you can summon 4 Huffers and 2 Lerokks, destroy all your taunts with Deadly Shot and Crushing Walls as well as refill your their board with secrets.

I'd get it, Hunters are gonna suffer hard when Rotations hits but jesus.. Zul'jin blows Dr. Boom and Hagatha out of the water.

And yes, I'm salty as hell, when I'm fighting to keep control over the board the whole game as a Tempo Warrior and seeing them just drop one card and win the entire game, when they had 5 life and I'd had 24 health.

And that's a deck without a single minion in it.

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