February 2019 Balance Update - Feedback Thread

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02/02/2019 12:49 AMPosted by kilian
Mark dint need nerf ,it was problem with no dmg from candle shot so id change that one. even in day of 0mana huntersmark wasnt that prevelant and it never was at 1mana until candle shot and even then.


Hunter also has springpaw that gives them two 1 mana rush beast. Back in the days, you had to spend unleash or trade good minions or a bow charge + face damage to clear minions.

They designed the new cards to have synergy with basic/classic set but when it turned out to be too good, they went back to nerf the old cards instead of the new ones.
02/02/2019 12:49 AMPosted by kilian
02/01/2019 05:58 PMPosted by TheQuietOne
Don't agree with cold blood, equality, and flametongue. They've killed cold blood and flametongue, guarantee they won't see play ever again. And it's not paladin's fault that pretty much every single "win game with uninteractable combo" was gutted, and the scum decided to jump ship to this class. Maybe don't give them better ice block or actually reduce shirvallah cost in deck so holy wrath bs can't happen, bounce "otk" is fair.

Hunter's mark needed the nerf, previously it didn't have 1 mana rushers or candleshot, it was balanced because they could only combo it with Unleash the hounds, which sucks so badly nowadays, it's probably not even played in spell hunter.

Spellstone definitely deserved what it got too. Powerful as early game one card board, powerful as a lategame finisher with tundra rhino.


Mark dint need nerf ,it was problem with no dmg from candle shot so id change that one. even in day of 0mana huntersmark wasnt that prevelant and it never was at 1mana until candle shot and even then.


Combination of candleshot and Springpaw is what made it so good atm.

Having up to 10 different, 0 damage/board loss, activators split over 4 cards gives it a nearly perfect consistency.
The problem in my opinion is that this is all driven by $$$, more specifically shareholders $$$ in which said shareholders are looking for never ending and unrelenting short term gains.


I know that some people like to gnaw on this particular conspiracy theory bone, but it is nothing but pure speculation. I've learned over long years the truth of a simple maxim...

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."

While it may be score popular internet board points to snap at the shadows of a shareholder $$$ canard, there is very little evidence of any kind that such upper-management motivations would be driving low-level programming decisions. Isn't it enough to assume the team is simply acting stupidly because they think they know better when they really don't?
02/02/2019 09:34 AMPosted by TheRiddler
The problem in my opinion is that this is all driven by $$$, more specifically shareholders $$$ in which said shareholders are looking for never ending and unrelenting short term gains.


I know that some people like to gnaw on this particular conspiracy theory bone, but it is nothing but pure speculation. I've learned over long years the truth of a simple maxim...

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."

While it may be score popular internet board points to snap at the shadows of a shareholder $$$ canard, there is very little evidence of any kind that such upper-management motivations would be driving low-level programming decisions. Isn't it enough to assume the team is simply acting stupidly because they think they know better when they really don't?


That is very fair, actually.
I am a future returning player once the rotation and power reset goes live. Haven’t even bothered to log in for the free packs from brawls. Lost all fun in the game, but not sure if it had to do with myself or the meta. Although, my complaint for losing interest was the perception of Rock Paper Scissor matches. I visit the forums sometimes and get a laugh out of posters comparing combo to otk like combo can’t be otk or that otk is fine. Maybe I’m just not the targeted demographic anymore.

As far as the nerfs I have no idea because I am out of touch with the game. My rough estimate is that baku and genn were a mistake that further skewed the balance the coin had for going second. It looks like the game gave itself another excuse to nerf basic and classic cards. To be fair it is either basic and classic holding back future card designs or it is poorly designed future cards. Imo baku and genn was a bad design because it unbalanced the coin for going second or at least that is how I remembered interpreting the various data.
02/02/2019 09:34 AMPosted by TheRiddler
The problem in my opinion is that this is all driven by $$$, more specifically shareholders $$$ in which said shareholders are looking for never ending and unrelenting short term gains.


I know that some people like to gnaw on this particular conspiracy theory bone, but it is nothing but pure speculation. I've learned over long years the truth of a simple maxim...

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."

While it may be score popular internet board points to snap at the shadows of a shareholder $$$ canard, there is very little evidence of any kind that such upper-management motivations would be driving low-level programming decisions. Isn't it enough to assume the team is simply acting stupidly because they think they know better when they really don't?


while i agree on principle, the issue here is that we know as a fact that Activision stock and titles are in trouble the last months and we know that ceo's were very resently changed/retired/abanmdned ship/etc making a HUGE change in managment of the merged companies.
We also know as a fact that purely economic reasons lead so far 2 other "blizzard" titles either being abandoned because of limited profit (hots) or pushed to a market that solely exist for quick easy grabs (diablo immortal).

and then came not 1, but 2 questionable patches, that both hit way more the f2p players and both promote more spending, while giving effectively 0 reimbusment for all and every changes made by those 2 patches.

so, yes, in vacuum i would agree with you. But given the circumstances, it's hard to think that immediate profit, even at the expense of longevity and long term vision, is at least part of the reason for said changes.
These nerfs should have happened years ago. I'm glad it's getting handled now but there are so many problems with balance that have arisen since then that the nerfs need to be far more extensive. Nerfing the classic set, while at one time should have been done, now is a waste of time because we're at a point where the classic set needs to be rotated.
This isn't going to fix the game. This isn't going to let new builds live. This doesn't stop the wildly powerful 2 classes you guys use to sell packs from dominating what decks can and can't exist. This isn't going to stop the serious bleeding effect that HS has. People have been looking for an alt for years because they're sick of the trash balance this game has put out there. Freaking DOTA chess has a decent chance of killing HS now.
No no no not Flametongue Totem nooooooooooo
Ok here is my feedback.

The continuous nerfing of classic cards is changing the game.
The classic cards provided an anchor for players and hero classes to make sure they always have at least a few decent and good cards to work with.
By nerfing many of the classic cards without giving a classic replacement (like rotation of classic) that anchor is gone for many players and hero classes,not only in standard but also in wild.
They now depend almost completely on what the current rotation has to offer.
There is not much to work with in the classic set when the predefined synergys and cards from the expansions don't offer enough by themselves.
I can see this being attractive from a certain point of vieuw,in the end seeing the same cards for 4 years is boring.
But for casual players they provided an important anchor. Personally I do not really mind this new approach but it would be nice if it was executed a bit more orderly and with classic replacement cards (for which packs can be sold).

It sometimes feels as if a card which had been fine for 4 years and still is far from gamebreaking gets a nerf just to make a particular design that is being considered possible without breaking it. That design is then viable for sometimes even less then 1 expansion and a valuable classic card has been removed just to make 1 thing possible or to push something else for just a short period of time.
That I think is not the right way to go about changing the classic set. It is to random and it is to easy to break things and create a balance chaos.

Maybe with the yearly rotation blizzard hof a large number of classic cards,and at same time replace them with cards from a new classic expansion. (which could be treated similar to the original adventures,offering a small number of cards)
This way they could slowly and orderly replace the classic set in the next 2-3 years.
Doing it random and ad hoc like they do now with imo no attention for the long term game development I find bad. I also would not like the idea of the game depending for 100% on the 2 year rotation and having every single classic card nerfed without interesting replacements.
02/02/2019 09:34 AMPosted by TheRiddler
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."

While it may be score popular internet board points to snap at the shadows of a shareholder $$$ canard, there is very little evidence of any kind that such upper-management motivations would be driving low-level programming decisions. Isn't it enough to assume the team is simply acting stupidly because they think they know better when they really don't?
Well, what's stopping the upper management from meddling in Hearthstone's affairs out of stupidity?

I've heard several analysts and economists claim that Actiblizzard's current woes can be pinned on poor decisions at an upper management level. They claim that many of the employees in the company are clearly talented, but upper management has been meddling with disastrous results, and the studio is now in chaos because so many executives are now leaving the company.

Like in this article, for example: https://seekingalpha.com/article/4237543-activision-blizzards-secret-weapon
Cold Blood is a combo card, it needs be low mana cost. Big ouch for rogue players.

Flametongue Totem I don't know why you did it, anyway, I gonna try it in some Odd Token Shaman deck.

Emerald Spellstone we know this card isn't doing the hunters win...

Hunter's Mask is a buff because it is now out of Skulking Geist's range and because you are forcing a Even Spell Hunter.
You're not going to stop until you've killed all the classic set, are you?
02/03/2019 10:00 AMPosted by Helghast
You're not going to stop until you've killed all the classic set, are you?


Why they should not kill?

Promise a eternal set was a mistake and refund all at once is unviable.

People can say whatever they want but that game wasn't planned with rotation system in mind and even when they accepted that it was needed they did the mistake of not do a all in.

I'm understand why they should want the classic set to stay but now it feels more like a unintentional lie than something that is in fact possible.

In some years from now we gonna say to newcomers to not buy classic packs and instead craft the few that they want because most cards will be trash or really niche.
02/03/2019 10:11 AMPosted by minami
In some years from now we gonna say to newcomers to not buy classic packs and instead craft the few that they want because most cards will be trash or really niche.

but don't we already do that tho? since they give free classic packs through TB and quests, better not to buy and only craft the cards you *might* need
02/02/2019 09:34 AMPosted by TheRiddler
The problem in my opinion is that this is all driven by $$$, more specifically shareholders $$$ in which said shareholders are looking for never ending and unrelenting short term gains.


I know that some people like to gnaw on this particular conspiracy theory bone, but it is nothing but pure speculation. I've learned over long years the truth of a simple maxim...

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."

While it may be score popular internet board points to snap at the shadows of a shareholder $$$ canard, there is very little evidence of any kind that such upper-management motivations would be driving low-level programming decisions. Isn't it enough to assume the team is simply acting stupidly because they think they know better when they really don't?


This.

People always assume for these conspiracies that bad balance patches increase pack sales. I think it could be equally if not more likely that it REDUCES pack sales.
02/03/2019 10:11 AMPosted by minami
02/03/2019 10:00 AMPosted by Helghast
You're not going to stop until you've killed all the classic set, are you?


Why they should not kill?

Promise a eternal set was a mistake and refund all at once is unviable.

People can say whatever they want but that game wasn't planned with rotation system in mind and even when they accepted that it was needed they did the mistake of not do a all in.

I'm understand why they should want the classic set to stay but now it feels more like a unintentional lie than something that is in fact possible.

In some years from now we gonna say to newcomers to not buy classic packs and instead craft the few that they want because most cards will be trash or really niche.


For me, I purchased classic cards with the promise of the set being permanent. Killing this set in a way that gives me no refund or free replacement is one of the few ways HS would lose me as a paying customer.
02/03/2019 05:42 PMPosted by Ugpaw
<span class="truncated">...</span>

Why they should not kill?

Promise a eternal set was a mistake and refund all at once is unviable.

People can say whatever they want but that game wasn't planned with rotation system in mind and even when they accepted that it was needed they did the mistake of not do a all in.

I'm understand why they should want the classic set to stay but now it feels more like a unintentional lie than something that is in fact possible.

In some years from now we gonna say to newcomers to not buy classic packs and instead craft the few that they want because most cards will be trash or really niche.


For me, I purchased classic cards with the promise of the set being permanent. Killing this set in a way that gives me no refund or free replacement is one of the few ways HS would lose me as a paying customer.


This rings true for me, albeit in a different way.

I've brought 4 different people into the game this year. In each case I've suggested the dragon bundle and, previously, the starter bundle as great value because they will grant you a legendary that is extremely likely to be good for all time.

But if they rotate and/or nerf cards like Tirion, Alextraza, Malygos....they've made me a liar and also wasted the money these players spent. Worse...these bundles will be the first real money they put into the game.

How do you imagine this affects their incentive to purchase further? It kills the validity of my word of mouth AND instills the ideal that these special bundles (which include preorders and yearly sales) are just cash grabs on product the developers know are going to be removed soon.

Until this post I have not considered the implications to me personally or to my very new player friends whom already suffer through the growing pains.
02/03/2019 06:56 PMPosted by Gishgeron
Until this post I have not considered the implications to me personally or to my very new player friends whom already suffer through the growing pains.


You and me both. I was very vocal when formats were announced on the lack of compensation for rotating sets despite being told that formats would not be a thing in HS from the start, and this would just be an extension of that should no compensation be awarded/offered if they were to rotate all of classic - we were explicitly told they would be evergreen, now they're not.

I do believe the rotation of classic has to happen as the alternative is seeing it systematically removed via nerfs and HoF anyway.

So the question (not trying to be an antagonist or anything, a legitimate question) is:

"What should we expect/demand as players as compensation should they rotate the classic set?"

0% is a no go (from our perspective), 100% is also likely a no go from (Blizz's perspective). But its happening anyway, they are phasing out the classic set slowly but surely. So instead of seeing the set slowly dismantled to trash tier status I'd prefer to see it just rotated. BUT that would imo have to come at a cost to Blizz due to their explicit statement that the set would be evergreen when formats launched, which leads to my question above, and thats a tough nut to crack which minami touched on.

Question 2:

"What would you prefer to see with the classic set; a slow yet inevitable death, or to put it out of its misery once and for all instead of torturing it (and us) for months/years to come?"
@Bowser

I've always said that a biannual rotating core set that is entirely free would be best.

Tag the cards in it so players cant keep them when they rotate unless the own them.

This would actually be a huge boon for the new player experience. Having a full list of actual key cards to kick it off for them as well as not feeling left behind horribly. Toss Whizbang in the core set permanently and you've got a recipe for a much more productive new player environment.

One which actually incentivizes purchases since "what they need to buy" can then be easily summed up as "what is the newest set". Get them into the rotation quickly and keep their focus on the future rather than worrying over a graveyard set of useless garbage.

Plus getting a taste of new cards via free whizbang would really push excitement for pack purchases. Much like certain brawls do today.
@Gish

I agree, but that doesnt address the investment many have made into the classic set should/when it be rotated.

I am all for the rotation of classic tbh, I wasn't a year or so ago i am now. BUT the investment many players have made into said set would imho need to be addressed should it happen.

And that is what minami was getting at. $$$ are preventing them from doing the "right thing" by just rotating the classic set and utilising something similar to your idea. They dont want to "pay out" for doing so (which they assured would be evergreen when formats were announced) and would prefer to slowly phase it out through nerfs and the HoF. Thats BS imo, they are doing it anyway and getting more aggressive about it in the last ~6months.

Those are the questions I was asking - the communities compensation expectations should full rotation of the classic set occur, and if they would prefer the slow death the set is getting or to put it out of its misery.

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