This Game Is Pay-to-Win

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I'm not posting this to just throw shade. I like this game, and I like Blizzard. But I'm posting this here for other players who are in a similar place with the game.

Either you have to buy a ton of cards and get what you need, or you literally have to play for years to be able to play against the other people who have been playing for a while. Your skill at the game has nothing to do with 90%+ of games. I could see how it would when you have every card in the game at your disposal. But for those of us who don't, and who haven't gotten lucky enough to ever really finish a deck (as in, there are always several cards you see that you'd like to have but you don't have the dust for), you really just have to cross your fingers and hope you don't run into a player who has been lucky enough to either pay their way into getting cards or has gotten really lucky card packs.

The reason this is dumb is because there will be a huge "skill" gap (as players will surely call it) where newer players (i've been played for probably 6 months, several hours a week) simply cannot climb or compete at a certain level because they consistently run into players who have perfected decks. These are decks that you can Google and see that a specific card combination has a higher win rate. And you run into the same set of decks probably 50% of the time. The other 50% of the time you can actually kind of play a game with someone else who doesn't have a complete deck. Those are the games that are actually fun, and you can feel it going either way.

I have had maybe 15 times (maybe) in those 6 months of playing where I actually felt like my skill was really the determining factor in a game (made me lose or made me win). I've watched streamers and competitions, learned the strategies, but simply don't have the cards. I've been enjoying this game for a while but it's just too frustrating anymore. Maybe I've just been really unlucky with card packs and dust. But it really feels like the system has been set up to be pay-to-win, at least for players who haven't been playing for years. That is inherently frustrating for any game, and it's a major complaint I have on this game. Which sucks, because it seems really fun and I've had a good time with it. I don't know if I'm going to play much moving forward.
I know I'm going to get negative comments posting something like this on the forums. But if you go against someone who has all the legendary cards and perfect combos just like the decks you literally google for high percentage win rates, tell me how you beat them without having specific cards to counter them yourself. If you can't answer that, it's pay-to-win.
One of the best performing decks in the meta right now (Secret Paladin) is also one of the cheapest, coming in at less than 5k dust overall, with everything being commons/rares with the exception of 4 epics and a single legendary.

A newer player simply taking advantage of the initial resources available could have that deck in less than a week.

Pay to win is where you must sink money into the game in order to be competitively viable at all with no other option. I just laid a very solid option out for you.

Pay to experiment? Sure.

Pay for more variety all the time? You betcha!

But while a lot of meta decks have gone uo in average dust cost, this game itself is not "pay to win" when you'll likely have enough dust to craft a legend-worthy deck by the time you unlock Casual mode.
02/20/2019 06:48 PMPosted by Wardrum
One of the best performing decks in the meta right now (Secret Paladin) is also one of the cheapest, coming in at less than 5k dust overall


Do you have any idea how long it takes to get 5k dust without spending money?
If you want to be that player who is in the vanguard deckbuild. You must to have all cards, but, x* months are enough to you have a good deck without spend a penny.

* x = {0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11}
02/20/2019 06:38 PMPosted by Zaxo
I know I'm going to get negative comments posting something like this on the forums. But if you go against someone who has all the legendary cards and perfect combos just like the decks you literally google for high percentage win rates, tell me how you beat them without having specific cards to counter them yourself. If you can't answer that, it's pay-to-win.


That's not what pay to win means though.
What you really mean is its pay to win "NOW," its not pay to win.
I'm not saying you can't do decent without spending money. That's misinterpreting it. I'm saying that for people who don't invest a lot of money into this game, they losing a decent percentage of games specifically because the player they're playing against has either A) paid to get a bunch of nice stuff or B) has had more time to accumulate resources. At the end of the day, unless you have every card you need to make the perfect deck, which takes you a long time, there will always be people you play against who just have better decks than you. That is a fact, whether you want to argue it or not.

The idea of starting a game when your opponent simply has a better deck than you is one of pay-to-win. You might do okay, and if you get good draws you might win sometimes. But let's look at it this way.

If you were playing Call of Duty, and it took a very long time to gather the best guns and armor in the game to use, it would suck starting out. At first you'd play against the other noobs running around with pistols and no armor. Then slowly you'd earn your slightly better pistol and throw that into your starting equipment. Your skill level takes you a decent ways when you play against other people at that level. But eventually your skill level, if you're good, carries you into *who would have though* higher skill areas. At this time, you still have your pistol and maybe a backup pistol with an attachment. But you're playing against people who have assault rifles, snipers, shotguns, etc. And you can't get those things unless you either spend money or play for years. But that's the skill level you've been placed at because you still win about half your games. You still win about half your games even with just that pistol because you have enough skill to do it. But when you lose, it's difficult to say that the player with that shotgun was just better than you.
02/20/2019 06:54 PMPosted by Madmax
02/20/2019 06:38 PMPosted by Zaxo
I know I'm going to get negative comments posting something like this on the forums. But if you go against someone who has all the legendary cards and perfect combos just like the decks you literally google for high percentage win rates, tell me how you beat them without having specific cards to counter them yourself. If you can't answer that, it's pay-to-win.


That's not what pay to win means though.


If to compete at the highest level you need a specific card set, and that specific card set can only be acquired by investing money or several intense months or even years of playing, it's pay-to-win. At the very least, until you have that set of cards, it's hardly skill based if you're consistently being put up against players who have better starting resources than you.
If there was no advantage to spending money how would they generate revenue? The game wouldn't exist.
02/20/2019 07:03 PMPosted by Eyan
If there was no advantage to spending money how would they generate revenue? The game wouldn't exist.


1) you just admitted it's pay to win
2) ask fortnite
02/20/2019 07:05 PMPosted by Zaxo
1) you just admitted it's pay to win
2) ask fortnite

you're very ignorant there's no point discussing with you
02/20/2019 06:52 PMPosted by Zaxo
02/20/2019 06:48 PMPosted by Wardrum
One of the best performing decks in the meta right now (Secret Paladin) is also one of the cheapest, coming in at less than 5k dust overall


Do you have any idea how long it takes to get 5k dust without spending money?
Yes, I made a 4.5k dust Pirate Warrior deck a month and a half after I first started and wasn't buying packs of cards. This is before a lot of the incentives that they now offer, especially all of the bonus packs from rank 50-25.

No, I didn't play enough to max out my gold each day either. I've done that maybe three times ever, long after that point.
02/20/2019 07:05 PMPosted by Zaxo
02/20/2019 07:03 PMPosted by Eyan
If there was no advantage to spending money how would they generate revenue? The game wouldn't exist.


1) you just admitted it's pay to win
2) ask fortnite
If you think cosmetics in a CCG are capable of generating even a tenth of the revenue that they do in an open battle royal shooting game, you need to step back and reconsider your logic.
02/20/2019 06:52 PMPosted by FizzyElf
If you want to be that player who is in the vanguard deckbuild. You must to have all cards, but, x* months are enough to you have a good deck without spend a penny.

* x = {0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11}


I know ... you who downvoted me, you are playing since the alpha or open beta. But to a player be a Vanguard Deckbuilder he must has all cards unlocked, however, that isn't the unique requeriment and I am talking about the whole game, because, Wild Mode is important too for the game experience.
02/20/2019 07:03 PMPosted by Zaxo
02/20/2019 06:54 PMPosted by Madmax
...

That's not what pay to win means though.


If to compete at the highest level you need a specific card set, and that specific card set can only be acquired by investing money or several intense months or even years of playing, it's pay-to-win. At the very least, until you have that set of cards, it's hardly skill based if you're consistently being put up against players who have better starting resources than you.


Just because you have an idiosyncratic definition of pay-to-win it doesn't mean the game is pay to win. You can keep repeating yourself all you want, it doesn't make your (again, idiosyncratic) definition somehow more correct.
02/20/2019 06:52 PMPosted by Zaxo
...

Do you have any idea how long it takes to get 5k dust without spending money?
Yes, I made a 4.5k dust Pirate Warrior deck a month and a half after I first started and wasn't buying packs of cards. This is before a lot of the incentives that they now offer, especially all of the bonus packs from rank 50-25.

No, I didn't play enough to max out my gold each day either. I've done that maybe three times ever, long after that point.


I don't know what you're on about unless you got very lucky with your arena's and card packs. I've been going strong without spending any money for half a year or close to it. I'm at 800 dust, and that's with getting all the daily challenges as well. The only way I can think of you doing that in a month is literally not doing anything else besides play the game or dusting literally every other card you get just so you can complete a deck.
02/20/2019 07:07 PMPosted by Eyan
02/20/2019 07:05 PMPosted by Zaxo
1) you just admitted it's pay to win
2) ask fortnite

you're very ignorant there's no point discussing with you

As a CCG, Hearthstone basically has to have a card-collecting mechanic. And this card-collecting mechanic is what you are saying us pay-to-win. Without this pay-to-win mechanic, it would be a Collectible Card Game.
If they had a monthly subscription where you get the entire standard collection for x dollars a month, it wouldnt be as pay to win, sure, but then it wouldn't be a CCG. Just a... CG.

I wouldn't mind more paid hero skins and Card backs tho. I would pay to play as Captain Hookstusk-rogue.
02/20/2019 07:05 PMPosted by Zaxo
02/20/2019 07:03 PMPosted by Eyan
If there was no advantage to spending money how would they generate revenue? The game wouldn't exist.


1) you just admitted it's pay to win
2) ask fortnite


fortnite isn't a card game ... people who play card games aren't the same people who play fortnite. Of course, there is an intersection, but I doubt it is big.
[quote="207698678937"][quote="207698178477"]
fortnite isn't a card game ... people who play card games aren't the same people who play fortnite. Of course, there is an intersection, but I doubt it is big.


People are pointing out this comment, but ignoring the part about literally getting a monetary advantage, which is the actual point. It's literally right there, and people are ignoring that while also telling me that I have no idea what i'm talking about saying this game is pay-to-win.

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