This Game Is Pay-to-Win

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The best version of midrange hunter (a tier 1 deck) is like 3100 dust. You could even drop Rexxar and still have a 1500 dust deck that could probably make legend.
...Yes, I made a 4.5k dust Pirate Warrior deck a month and a half after I first started and wasn't buying packs of cards. This is before a lot of the incentives that they now offer, especially all of the bonus packs from rank 50-25.

No, I didn't play enough to max out my gold each day either. I've done that maybe three times ever, long after that point.


I don't know what you're on about unless you got very lucky with your arena's and card packs. I've been going strong without spending any money for half a year or close to it. I'm at 800 dust, and that's with getting all the daily challenges as well. The only way I can think of you doing that in a month is literally not doing anything else besides play the game or dusting literally every other card you get just so you can complete a deck.


I can create a new account right now and pass you tonight. Either you are being dishonest with us or with yourself, because there is literally no way this is a true statement.
02/20/2019 07:09 PMPosted by Madmax

Just because you have an idiosyncratic definition of pay-to-win it doesn't mean the game is pay to win. You can keep repeating yourself all you want, it doesn't make your (again, idiosyncratic) definition somehow more correct.


It's pay-to-win or play for years to collect everything so that you can compete at the highest level. Those are your options. It's a fact that you cannot compete at the highest level in this game unless you have access to all the cards, and you can't get them without spending insane amount of time or money into the game. And if I can't compete at the highest level regardless of my skill level without spending money, what do you call it? It's not skill based. If it's not skill based but I can overcome that skill level by spending tons of money, what is it? There's an element of pay-to-win there, whether you want to admit it or not.

Nobody is really answering that part. You're just saying "it's not pay to win no matter how you define it." You haven't addressed the issues or said why it's not. Use whatever terms and definitions you want. That's not the point. The point is that new players simply cannot compete at the highest level without spending a bunch of money just to be at the same starting platform. Even if you have a really high skill level at this game, if you don't have the cards, you're playing at a disadvantage. That's the point. "It's not pay to win." Say whatever you want about my definitions. The problem is still there.

You should be able to play at the highest skill level regardless of how long you've been playing a game. You should be able to improve your skill to play at the highest level. I don't like the card-collection mechanic. It's frustrating, and when someone throws out legendaries every 2 turns and I have maybe 2 in my entire deck, it's frustrating. I still win half the time. I stay consistently ranked at lvl 16-17. But I cannot improve after a certain point because I run into people with WAAAAY better decks than me. At that point, skill is a non-factor. It's such a small factor that it doesn't matter very much. Pistols vs. Assault Rifles. You will win sometimes, but when you lose because they had better equipment it's frustrating. That's the issue I'm trying to address, and you're here just to tell me that my definition is wrong. Who cares what it's called or what definitions are? Address the problem.
<span class="truncated">...</span>Yes, I made a 4.5k dust Pirate Warrior deck a month and a half after I first started and wasn't buying packs of cards. This is before a lot of the incentives that they now offer, especially all of the bonus packs from rank 50-25.

No, I didn't play enough to max out my gold each day either. I've done that maybe three times ever, long after that point.


I don't know what you're on about unless you got very lucky with your arena's and card packs. I've been going strong without spending any money for half a year or close to it. I'm at 800 dust, and that's with getting all the daily challenges as well. The only way I can think of you doing that in a month is literally not doing anything else besides play the game or dusting literally every other card you get just so you can complete a deck.
Yeah, you're going to have to dust some stuff to have your first good deck. I actually don't play arena at all. Look at it like this:

1) Have a full collection
2) Have a couple strong meta decks
3) Play for free

You can pick two of the above.

If you choose to only pick options (1) and (3) that's your decision to make, but it doesn't render the game pay-to-win. You have the option to compete. If you only ever complete your dailies, and lets say win an average of three games per day, you'll earn at the bare minimum 60g per day on top of any special events going on, free packs, etc.

For 6 months that's enough gold to grab 110 packs at the very minimum, on top of your tavern brawl packs. This is if you basically don't really play much at all and only EVER get 50g quests. Either you've been massively skimping out on playing or you have a very decent collection by now and have MORE than enough dust access to make a good deck.

You do not need every single card in order to compete.

I don't like the card-collection mechanic
THEN WHY ARE YOU PLAYING A COLLECTIBLE CARD GAME?!?!?!
It’s a game where you collect cards. Plenty of people have played longer than you and have collected more cards. Without paying a penny.

Plenty of other people have paid to get cards faster.

No one has paid to have an advantage you are unable to acquire without payment. In fact, there is nothing you can buy that gives an advantage not available from playing the game.
02/20/2019 07:22 PMPosted by Ace0Spadez83
...

I don't know what you're on about unless you got very lucky with your arena's and card packs. I've been going strong without spending any money for half a year or close to it. I'm at 800 dust, and that's with getting all the daily challenges as well. The only way I can think of you doing that in a month is literally not doing anything else besides play the game or dusting literally every other card you get just so you can complete a deck.


I can create a new account right now and pass you tonight. Either you are being dishonest with us or with yourself, because there is literally no way this is a true statement.


Explain to me how you get more than 800 dust in a night. I would honestly love to know.
given the wildpool is just getting larger and larger with each set that rotates it is bordering or crossed into "pay to win"

imaging how much grinding a new player joining today would have to do in order to keep up with the current sets and then collect over 3 years of rotated cards and adventures that can only be crafted with dust.

p2w search your feelings, you know it to be true!
Most of your arguments are missing the point. "Pay-to-win" is not a binary distinction in a digital card game where some stuff is given away for free. It can't be done that way. So you have to use some kind of sliding scale.

Hearthstone could conceivably get more expensive to play competitively (within, say, 3 months, counting either money or time), and it could also get less expensive. It's probably best to just compare to whatever else is out there.

In my experience, HS is still less of a commitment than MtGA or Eternal. And it is clearly much cheaper than paper MtG (not that this is a good comparison).

I've never spend money on this game. and I am at the point where I can play whatever I'm really interested in (not every deck, of course).

I did spend a couple years playing mostly Arena, and getting to ranks 10-15, but this was before I tried any decks that were actually good.

There have been metagames where a new player could learn to play well, and make a tier-1/2 Zoo deck within a month. That's enough to hit rank 5 if you learn to play it (legend if you learn to play it well, and can play 100 games a month). I would not call that P2W.

Some metagames are more expensive, sure, but not by a whole bunch.

Either way, the "is P2W" vs. "is not" argument is really missing the point.
02/20/2019 07:24 PMPosted by Zaxo
Address the problem.

You only need one deck.
02/20/2019 07:25 PMPosted by Wardrum
THEN WHY ARE YOU PLAYING A COLLECTIBLE CARD GAME?!?!?!


Because I've only just come to this realization recently. I decided to post this for other players. For a long time I felt like I was just bad at the game. And then I started doing research. A lot of people actually said that I was doing quite well "for not spending money and playing as long as I have." A lot of people right here in the forums have said things like that, along with other friends I have. So I started to think about that. And literally what they meant was, "you're doing quite well for someone who doesn't have all the best cards."

That's when I started doing a lot more research into specific decks. I realized that most of the decks I came across were almost exact replicas of decks I found online. The "card-collecting" mechanic was fun when I first started out, but once people have completed decks and I don't, the card collecting mechanic gets pretty frustrating.

Long story short, I wanted to make this post to communicate to other players that you're not bad if you're losing b/c people have better decks than you. You might be a really good players who doesn't have the time or money to get to the highest level of competition. For competitive players who don't have a lot of finances like myself, this is a struggle that I've only recently come across.

So, why am I playing? I'm probably not going to anymore, especially when the overall response I've gotten from community members is to tell me that I have no idea what I'm talking about. At the end of the day, here it is:

Do you NEED money to play this game? No. Can you acquire every card in the game without spending money? Yes. So TECHNICALLY it wouldn't be pay to play. HOWEVER... You do need the best cards and the best decks to play this game at the highest level, and that is difficult to do without investing money into this game. I personally do not like this. I like getting good at a game and knowing that if someone beats me it's because they're better than me at the game. That's my personal preference. I've put a lot into this game, but I'm just now realizing that it's probably not for me. I put this post out there so other players either learn from my experience and stop investing so much time into a game that's only going to frustrate them, or they see that I've had this experience and suddenly feel less frustrated because their losing isn't directly tied to their skill level and they can continue the quest for cards until they have what they need to be fully competitive.
i dont think if its pay to win but its certainly extra grindy. when i was new i also assumed that it was pay to win as well as i got matched up with people with expensive decks then i thought that might be the only cards in their collection i know of some people who only have 1 meta deck. it does feel bad not to be able to play all the decks you would want but to do that i do think you will be able to spend a ton of money.

i feel like you can still be competitive without spending money but you will be at a disadvantage cause you are only able to play only 1 meta deck.

Also i had made an alternate account about 5-4 months ago. i did make about 15000 dust by only doing daily quest which is about enough to craft almost any meta deck at the moment.
02/20/2019 06:48 PMPosted by Wardrum
One of the best performing decks in the meta right now (Secret Paladin) is also one of the cheapest, coming in at less than 5k dust overall, with everything being commons/rares with the exception of 4 epics and a single legendary.
And Midrange Hunter is even cheaper using only Commons, the most expensive card being an Epic, Master's Call. Maybe some Rares like Savannah Highmane. Or Deathstalker Rexxar if you happen to have him but he's not necessary.

02/20/2019 07:05 PMPosted by Zaxo
1) you just admitted it's pay to win
You don't even know what "pay to win" means.

02/20/2019 07:05 PMPosted by Zaxo
2) ask fortnite
Pffft Bhahahahah! Again with this retarded comparison between a digital collectible CARD game and a BATTLE ROYALE game? If you think Hearthstone could survive by just selling cosmetics while all the cards are free then, well, what can I say. Enjoy being wrong.
02/20/2019 06:33 PMPosted by Zaxo
I'm not posting this to just throw shade. I like this game, and I like Blizzard. But I'm posting this here for other players who are in a similar place with the game.

Either you have to buy a ton of cards and get what you need, or you literally have to play for years to be able to play against the other people who have been playing for a while. Your skill at the game has nothing to do with 90%+ of games.


Gotta stop you right there...I have been playing since December 27th 2018.
I have spent 50 dollars on 2 of the 3 sets that will be current in April.
I have managed to reach rank 3 and am one win away from rank 2.
Every day get your 100 gold do all quests and tavern brawls(when available) destroy all gold cards(unless its your only playable one) ...and i decided to abandon 2 classes, meaning any cards from those 2 classes get dusted.
This has worked for me, and only spending 100 on 2 sets is far from pay to win.
You can build a very nice collection on 50 dollars per expansion
And as far as skill has 90% nothing to do with it is just flat out wrong...do you need good cards...of course but they are very attainable.
On a side note there is a hunter deck that cost like 880 dust to craft and it's very competitive in the mid of the ladder.
Good luck in the future.!
02/20/2019 07:42 PMPosted by Zaxo
02/20/2019 07:25 PMPosted by Wardrum
THEN WHY ARE YOU PLAYING A COLLECTIBLE CARD GAME?!?!?!


Because I've only just come to this realization recently. I decided to post this for other players. For a long time I felt like I was just bad at the game. And then I started doing research. A lot of people actually said that I was doing quite well "for not spending money and playing as long as I have." A lot of people right here in the forums have said things like that, along with other friends I have. So I started to think about that. And literally what they meant was, "you're doing quite well for someone who doesn't have all the best cards."

That's when I started doing a lot more research into specific decks. I realized that most of the decks I came across were almost exact replicas of decks I found online. The "card-collecting" mechanic was fun when I first started out, but once people have completed decks and I don't, the card collecting mechanic gets pretty frustrating.

Long story short, I wanted to make this post to communicate to other players that you're not bad if you're losing b/c people have better decks than you. You might be a really good players who doesn't have the time or money to get to the highest level of competition. For competitive players who don't have a lot of finances like myself, this is a struggle that I've only recently come across.

So, why am I playing? I'm probably not going to anymore, especially when the overall response I've gotten from community members is to tell me that I have no idea what I'm talking about. At the end of the day, here it is:

Do you NEED money to play this game? No. Can you acquire every card in the game without spending money? Yes. So TECHNICALLY it wouldn't be pay to play. HOWEVER... You do need the best cards and the best decks to play this game at the highest level, and that is difficult to do without investing money into this game. I personally do not like this. I like getting good at a game and knowing that if someone beats me it's because they're better than me at the game. That's my personal preference. I've put a lot into this game, but I'm just now realizing that it's probably not for me. I put this post out there so other players either learn from my experience and stop investing so much time into a game that's only going to frustrate them, or they see that I've had this experience and suddenly feel less frustrated because their losing isn't directly tied to their skill level and they can continue the quest for cards until they have what they need to be fully competitive.


Worst post. And not just because you keep saying “long story short.”

Not only do you backpedal on your pay to win complaints, your agenda to “help” other players is dead wrong.

Other players should NOT blame their card collection when they don’t have success. I’ve done that in the past and it was the wrong approach. Instead, they should focus on building an inexpensive strong deck, such as paladin or hunter, and focus on their PLAY. Your lack of success isn’t based on your collection. It’s how you’re getting your dust, how you’re spending your dust, deck building, and in game decision making.

You’re getting advice from plenty of legend players on this forum, you should take it.
Its not pay to win. Its pay to avoid grind.

Some players might advice you to build some well performing low dust value deck but it would mean nothing in the end. You would still have to grind because once the rotation happen that deck might be horrible, once meta target it it might be terrible, once new set is released, this deck might be terrible. And while you have no collection to back you up, you would have to grind for more dust to create another deck that might be obsolete in couple of months.

Playing one deck over and over, knowing you lack card pool to experiment or switch decks is kinda horrible and that was a reason why I have spent money. Some players might be ok with that, I am not that person who just copy/paste a deck. I like to try new cards, new synergies etc. and that isnt possible without a solid collection.

If I would be starting from a scratch, I wouldnt even bother to be honest.

I guess solid move from the blizzard would be to make a classic set free. Because the need to grind for new sets AND the classic set is pretty much horrible.

IF you would be free to play players from the start, it would be ok (I was on my first account I have sold and it was ok, because I could just slowly make nice collection). But f2p from a scratch in current time? Well...grind grind grind or do not bother
02/20/2019 06:33 PMPosted by Zaxo
The reason this is dumb is because there will be a huge "skill" gap (as players will surely call it) where newer players (i've been played for probably 6 months, several hours a week) simply cannot climb or compete at a certain level because they consistently run into players who have perfected decks.


Welcome to card games. Some cards are more powerful than others. If you go to a baseball game with a hockey stick instead of a bat, you're not going to hit well. There are competitive decks that aren't popular, and playing well and building smart can make bad decks competitive, but if you want the easy wins then you play the perfected decks.

I mean, I've over 45% winrate with Hakkar Priest memes. It's an awful deck that can do powerful things if you can just survive.

02/20/2019 06:33 PMPosted by Zaxo
Either you have to buy a ton of cards and get what you need, or you literally have to play for years to be able to play against the other people who have been playing for a while.


Months. You can pick the cheapest competitive deck and build toward it, and have it in a month or two. Just do your dailies and take advantage of the guaranteed Legendary in the first 10 packs of each expansion. It's not a mechanic you're told about, but that's how you game the system.
You do need the best cards and the best decks to play this game at the highest level


Two things...

1. You don't need all the best cards & decks to play the game. CCGs are games that are designed to be played with incomplete collections. Your opinion that you need "all" the cards ... or even "most" of the cards ... is provably wrong.

2. What do you mean by "highest level", and why do you assume that all players want to play that way? The highest level of play in this game would be at Invitational global tournaments. Why would any player who wanted to play at that level believe they would be able to do so with absolutely no investment? But you probably instead mean the ability to achieve Legendary ranked status or something. In that case, people have repeated proven that they can reach Legendary rank on brand new accounts on the first month they create those accounts, and so your argument is again provably wrong.

The P2W Whiners need to face up to facts...
A: Hearthstone is not pay to win.
B: It is possible to compete in the game to its fullest extent without spending a penny.
C: The CCG pricing model is completely fair and allows players to spend as much or as little as they want for increased variety but not increased performance.
D: CCGs will never adopt a "One Price" model where you can get 100% of the cards for the price of a "vidyuh game". Deal with it.
02/20/2019 07:42 PMPosted by Zaxo
02/20/2019 07:25 PMPosted by Wardrum
THEN WHY ARE YOU PLAYING A COLLECTIBLE CARD GAME?!?!?!


Because I've only just come to this realization recently. I decided to post this for other players. For a long time I felt like I was just bad at the game. And then I started doing research. A lot of people actually said that I was doing quite well "for not spending money and playing as long as I have." A lot of people right here in the forums have said things like that, along with other friends I have. So I started to think about that. And literally what they meant was, "you're doing quite well for someone who doesn't have all the best cards."

That's when I started doing a lot more research into specific decks. I realized that most of the decks I came across were almost exact replicas of decks I found online. The "card-collecting" mechanic was fun when I first started out, but once people have completed decks and I don't, the card collecting mechanic gets pretty frustrating.

Long story short, I wanted to make this post to communicate to other players that you're not bad if you're losing b/c people have better decks than you. You might be a really good players who doesn't have the time or money to get to the highest level of competition. For competitive players who don't have a lot of finances like myself, this is a struggle that I've only recently come across.

So, why am I playing? I'm probably not going to anymore, especially when the overall response I've gotten from community members is to tell me that I have no idea what I'm talking about. At the end of the day, here it is:

Do you NEED money to play this game? No. Can you acquire every card in the game without spending money? Yes. So TECHNICALLY it wouldn't be pay to play. HOWEVER... You do need the best cards and the best decks to play this game at the highest level, and that is difficult to do without investing money into this game. I personally do not like this. I like getting good at a game and knowing that if someone beats me it's because they're better than me at the game. That's my personal preference. I've put a lot into this game, but I'm just now realizing that it's probably not for me. I put this post out there so other players either learn from my experience and stop investing so much time into a game that's only going to frustrate them, or they see that I've had this experience and suddenly feel less frustrated because their losing isn't directly tied to their skill level and they can continue the quest for cards until they have what they need to be fully competitive.


The reason why you feel strongly above is from your personal experience.
Where there are some truth is your statements, but in the process, fails to bring out the full truth.

It is a fact that some cards does improve your deck's winrate by a few % points, but you left out the fact that the same few % points does not guarantee one is able to compete at the highest level.

Some people can achieve higher rank because of the pure power level of the deck, but finds that they are not able to break the ceiling of that rank. Yet, a second player with the same deck is able to do so. Thus what is the reason?

Why is the reason we see complaints of top tier decks even at rank 20?

If one is able to understand the mechanics and economics of this game, he/she is able to maximise his/her resources optimally to achieve the best result.

Using a simple example: Propose a deck of your choosing and over a span of 100 games, show your winrate. Using the same deck and have a few people to do the same as above. Does the winrate of others tally with yours?

If yes, what does that result indicate?
If no, what does that result indicate?
To add:
This game can be very frustrating for many players whom does not understand the mechanics/economics fully.
However, there are also a few helpful posters that are willing to share experiences and tips. You may be surprise by how much you can learn from other players and break from your current ceiling/situation.

Feel free to ask for advice /help.
Hey OP, I'm 100% f2p and have achieved legend multiple times, before and after the rank nerf. Ask me anything and I'll try to help.

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