This Game Is Pay-to-Win

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competition=tournaments

eyeroll
what? do you think you're being competitive at rank 20?
02/21/2019 02:18 PMPosted by Shakou
what? do you think you're being competitive at rank 20?
I didn't say that either, but there's a considerable amount of ground between, let's say rank 5 and top 200 legend that I would consider fairly competitive. The fact that with you it's either top legend or absolutely nothing is pretty ridiculous.
competition=tournaments, which you can't attend with only one deck


Someone hasnt seen the new tournament format, 'cos thats pretty much exactly what it is. A (single) 25 card deck with 3x 5 card sideboards. You need all of 40 cards max once this format goes live in April.
As a f2p player you won't have the luxury of playing whatever you like whenever you like, however, one top tier deck is enough to get you to high ranks and it definitely doesn't take several years to build one.

Some streamers have proven this by hitting legend on fresh accounts.

If results is all you care about you can speeden the process by disenchanting everything to create one strong deck (I advise against that) and rerolling accounts until you get good legendaries to build your deck around.

I reached legend rank as completely f2p player after a year of casual playing. After that I spent 10$ on two welcome bundles and 20$ on two heroic brawls (regret that), and had no problems climbing to rank 5 whenever I wanted.
Sure, if you do not have collection to make a top tier deck and you face one of these, there is very very high chance you would lose the game even when your opponent is playing very poorly.


I disagree with this statement to some extent.

A brand new player who knows absolutely nothing about either Hearthstone specifically or CCGs in general is certainly at a disadvantage in terms of skill, knowledge, and in card library. There's no reason why this hypothetical person should expect to be at parity with players who have been playing Hearthstone for months or years. The most important factor determinant in improving this new player's performance though would not be card library. The things that would improve this player's performance the most directly would be acquiring basic CCG skills (strategic deck design, tactical card execution, knowledge of game mechanics, awareness of card library, etc...).

Now - let's assume that the player is NOT new to CCGs. Instead, we assume the player is fully aware of what CCGs are, how they work, and what skills are required to play them successfully. This hypothetical player approaches Hearthstone with the intention to succeed by winning games. What would this player do? He would design and build the most successful deck he could with what resources he had. Currently that would be a deck such as Mid-Hunter, Secret Paladin, or Zoolock ... all of which can be built with very low resource requirements.

In neither case is the person's COLLECTION the most directly responsible factor regarding their ability to play and win games. The first player type simply needs to acquire knowledge and skill. The second player is not limited in his performance ... he is only limited in his variety.

So it is generally untrue that players do not have "the resources to make a top tier deck". The uneducated new player simply lacks the knowledge to build it, while the educated new player knows exactly what to do. Therefore no player can be said to lack the resources. One player lacks the knowledge ... and you could hand them the whole library and it wouldn't help. The other player lacks nothing.

This is because in HS (I guess even in other CCGs) there is no queue to match you against deck with similar "lvl" as yours.


This is true, and it's been a long-standing criticism of the game. It'd be nice if there was some sort of third game mode called "Deck Parity Mode" (or whatever) where players could voluntarily be matched against decks of similar dust cost or something of that sort. That is a much better argument to make than the rather whiny and condescending complaint that players should be given tons of free content because they feel like sad pandas when they don't have a card they "want".

However, even this sort of theoretical game mode would not be a good solution for the uneducated new player. Each game mode develops it own "meta". Imagine - for example - that the new player clicks on Deck Parity Mode and they can only build a deck that totals 1,000 dust from their Basic stuff. They would still get matched up against the sharks within that dust-tier who built that killer Mid-Hunter deck for 1,000 dust.
Like I said before, there are a lot of good players giving a lot of good advice.

I’m thinking now that you ARE here to ‘throw shade’ as you put it.
The prophecy says

You don't need loads of cash
To be best of all time
Only 3200 dust
And this old truthful rhyme
With a GOLDEN BLINGTRON,
by the firm hand of fate,
shall the true Hearthstone God
a new meta create.
02/21/2019 03:31 PMPosted by blackveiled
The prophecy says

You don't need loads of cash
To be best of all time
Only 3200 dust
And this old truthful rhyme
With a GOLDEN BLINGTRON,
by the firm hand of fate,
shall the true Hearthstone God
a new meta create.
And all of Brode's people said...
02/21/2019 07:27 AMPosted by TheRiddler
...

What do you mean by "highest level", and why do you assume that all players want to play that way?


By Highest level, I mean knowing that the reason I'm winning or losing is because of my skill lvl vs. my opponent's, or the mixed in RNG factor present in almost any game. I want to know that the skill ceiling I'm at is because of my own skill at the game and not because of the cards I possess (or more specifically, do not possess). With where I stand right now in the game, there are a decent number of games that I lose simply because my opponent has a lot of legendary cards. That's a frustrating experience as a gamer. CAN you win? Yes, sometimes you will, especially if you are a good player. And you can make a deck that isn't completely terrible without spending all your dust on legendaries for sure! But are there also games where you lose simply because you don't have the starting resources as another player? Yes, and that is a fact. And that fact is what is frustrating as a new player who can't afford to spend tons of money on this game. That's the issue I'm trying to address.

I just want to play the game with the same starting resources as my opponent. I don't like that I can't do that, and it's especially frustrating to see so many players aggressively argue that this isn't a real issue facing newer players. The responses on this forum make it even less likely that I will continue to play this game. It's an issue that SHOULD be addressed, and that newer players should be aware of. Players should know how much time they will need to invest to just be able to play every game with the same starting resources as their opponent.


I understand the feeling as stated above which prompted my replies.
It can can more and more frustrating if I focus on the "unfairness" in life, and start comparing.
However, if I look internally for the "blessing" I possess and the value of self, It becomes more fulfilling.

If I compare myself to people who does not even have a chance to own a phone/PC to even play HS, to people whom huge HS collections but no friends to share the joy/tears with, etc, etc .......

I find that a more important aspect which new player tends to neglect, is to understand the whole mechanic/economics of this game.
How can new players,
- maximise their potential with less resource,
- maximise their dust return/gold accumulation/resource spending, etc
- build on the fundamental skills to improve winrate

That why we see some new players able to progress better than other new player/older players despite having less advantageous start off point.

One of the reason I continually tries to make friends is to find players that can help my game further.
...Yes, I made a 4.5k dust Pirate Warrior deck a month and a half after I first started and wasn't buying packs of cards. This is before a lot of the incentives that they now offer, especially all of the bonus packs from rank 50-25.

No, I didn't play enough to max out my gold each day either. I've done that maybe three times ever, long after that point.


I don't know what you're on about unless you got very lucky with your arena's and card packs. I've been going strong without spending any money for half a year or close to it. I'm at 800 dust, and that's with getting all the daily challenges as well. The only way I can think of you doing that in a month is literally not doing anything else besides play the game or dusting literally every other card you get just so you can complete a deck.


Youre wrong, youre simply not as smart as you think you are. Theres many ways to get more gold and dust, the guy above racked up 4.5K dust in 6 weeks. once you start snowballing wins and collecting resources efficiently gets easier. Its hard initially to get 1K dust per month, but later on its actually not that hard with all the free packs and gold. I havent been that lucky, played for 6 months f2p, I have enough dust to build 1-3 tier one decks, depending on build and i only play for a couple of hours each day.

Granted ive played MtG for over 20 years, but still. Practice, watch, tinker, learn and win.

Arena is grindy as heck, but provides a means to accelerate your resources and development.
02/21/2019 10:41 AMPosted by TheRiddler
This game is possible as a free to play player. Its just annoying as hell.


The only way it would be "annoying" is if that player had ridiculously unrealistic expectations regarding what they'd be able to do.

A Ridiculous, Unrealistic Expectation:

"I've decided to play Hearthstone ... and because I have decided to grace Hearthstone with my wonderful presence, I should have ... NAY!! ... I am entitled to have 100% of every card in every set so that I can build any deck I want. Oh - and I should be able to do that for free!"

I could see how a person who had such a set of expectations might be "annoyed" when the game didn't hand the entire universe to them on a silver platter for no money the instant they decided to start playing. But just because such a person is annoyed doesn't mean that their expectations aren't a load of nonsense. Any such person who has expectations even vaguely along these lines should do themselves a favor and quit playing Hearthstone ... or any CCG ... immediately. Because no CCG will ever meet such a preposterous set of requirements, and people with these kinds of expectations will never be happy. Ever.

A Normal, Reasonable Expectation:

"I'm going to start playing Hearthstone. The game gives me a lot of free resources right off the bat, and access to a lot more free resources for playing. With a little patience and planning, I will be able to perform moderately well ... and as time passes I will get more and more cards until I have everything I want. I won't be able to be #1 in the world on day 1, but I'll get there."

A person who has these expectations will not be "annoyed". The annoyance that some people feel is a result of their own badly reasoned expectations.

I just want to play the game with the same starting resources as my opponent.


Then you're playing the wrong game genre, and you should quit right now, because that's not how CCGs work. Never has been, and never will be. Any player who plays a CCG for any amount of time longer than someone else will have more cards than the other guy. Part of the fun of CCGs is maximizing the effectiveness of the incomplete library of cards that the player owns.

There are three dynamics that apply to increasing a CCG library... You can do it Fast. You can do it Cheap. You can have Depth. You get to pick two of these.

FAST & CHEAP: You can opt for fast & cheap, but you will not have depth.
FAST & DEEP: If you want a bigger library quickly that has lots of depth, then it's going to cost you cash.
CHEAP & DEEP: If you want a bigger library that is cheap with lots of variety, then it's going to take time.

There's your formula. If you find that none of these options are acceptable to you, then your best recourse it to quit playing CCGs and find some other way to spend your time. I'm not trying to be mean when I say that. I'm simply being brutally honest. If the only way you can be 'happy' is to get your library Cheap, Deep, and Fast then you are always going to be frustrated and you might as well play something else rather than bang your head against reality.


Here here. Thanks for taking the time to type the detailed response, dudes a clown.

Simple fact is time = money. Want things faster, spend some money.

Or enjoy the challenge or not spending money, but efficiently creep up the slow burn to the path to victory.

Also sometimes, cheaper cards can tech or have other synergy that take advantage of higher dust cards and builds. Sure sometimes the epics and lengedaries are ridiculous in a particular shell or situation, but sometimes, even cheap cards can do the trick.
It is simply Pay to Skip
"fact is time = money"
Yeah and that the stupidest thing to happens in f2p, you pay this invisible wall of time, you don't pay for more content, more skin, more whatever, you just !@#$ing pay to skip time ahead!
It clearly not feasible to have 9 interesting deck while f2p, you can have 2-3 super good deck if you dictate to it. (aggressively dusting everything else for example)
I just don't get the fact that it's either you pay 200$ to have access to almost everything or f* you, which is stupid insane if you compare to any video game. 200$ each 4 month? That worst than a subs in a mmo.
Also time = money is flawed and not applicable here. Normally you are paid money for the time you work that what it means, nothing to do with paying money to have time.
02/21/2019 02:21 PMPosted by Wardrum
let's say rank 5 and top 200 legend that I would consider fairly competitive.
what do you compete for at rank5 ? 5?
02/21/2019 02:23 PMPosted by Bowser
Someone hasnt seen the new tournament format,
wasn't this topic made before the announcement? but this new format is, indeed, more accessible (top 200 for 2 months or travel x kilometers), i hope we'll see more people from this forum
02/21/2019 09:17 PMPosted by Siyano
I just don't get the fact that it's either you pay 200$ to have access to almost everything or f* you, which is stupid insane if you compare to any video game.
that's why fortnite and apex have so many more players and therefore get more profits
edit: since the no dupe rule, it's 250 packs for a full xpac instead of 380=you need to buy 150-160 packs to get the full set if you complete ALL your dally quests = "only" 187€ every 4 months!
what do you compete for at rank5?


What do people compete for at Legend? Since the Ranked rewards are piddling little nothings, I suppose the primary motivation is simply to see how far one can go.

that's why fortnite and apex have so many more players


Not really. Battle Royale games are simple action shooters which are highly accessible. Hearthstone is a math-based strategy game with a collection aspect. Completely different genres draw different audiences, and it has little (if nothing) to do with the price models.

you need to buy 150-160 packs to get the full set if you complete ALL your dally quests = "only" 187€ every 4 months!


Why anyone believes they need to do such a thing is what I never quite manage to understand. Using nothing but free quest gold and the freebies from Blizzard, I have easily obtained over 85% of the collectible cards in every expansion. I can build multiple fully optimized Tier 1 decks, and nearly-optimized versions of pretty much everything else in the meta. All for free. Why would anyone undertake the expensive, low ROI effort to move from "free 85+%" to "high-cost 100%?" when it really doesn't accomplish much except to give the person a pointless sense of completion?
02/22/2019 11:03 AMPosted by TheRiddler
What do people compete for at Legend? Since the Ranked rewards are piddling little nothings, I suppose the primary motivation is simply to see how far one can go.
not so long ago, top x gave points to qualify and soon, it's top 200 i think
02/22/2019 11:03 AMPosted by TheRiddler
Completely different genres draw different audiences, and it has little (if nothing) to do with the price models.
when you play a game, you don't like having access to all the content on day one, you prefer to grind for months before knowing if you like the game or not, right?
02/22/2019 11:03 AMPosted by TheRiddler
Why anyone believes they need to do such a thing is what I never quite manage to understand.
so, you don't like having access to all the content of a game?
02/22/2019 12:56 PMPosted by Shakou
02/22/2019 11:03 AMPosted by TheRiddler
What do people compete for at Legend? Since the Ranked rewards are piddling little nothings, I suppose the primary motivation is simply to see how far one can go.
not so long ago, top x gave points to qualify and soon, it's top 200 i think
02/22/2019 11:03 AMPosted by TheRiddler
Completely different genres draw different audiences, and it has little (if nothing) to do with the price models.
when you play a game, you don't like having access to all the content on day one, you prefer to grind for months before knowing if you like the game or not, right?
02/22/2019 11:03 AMPosted by TheRiddler
Why anyone believes they need to do such a thing is what I never quite manage to understand.
so, you don't like having access to all the content of a game?
If you're going into a collectible card game with a dislike of the idea of collecting things, you're kinda of knowingly setting yourself up for a bad time, aren't you?

Collectible
i don't care if it's ccg or rts or fps or moba, i play video games to have fun and the fun in hs is about playing cards and ranking up, not grinding/buying to wank over a collection (which, in the end, you don't even own)...
it's no accident if there're less new players on hs than most games, grinding for months or wasting hundreds before finding out if you're going to like the game or not is ridiculous
when you play a game, you don't like having access to all the content on day one?


What I do or don't expect entirely depends on the game genre.

For example, for an MMORPG like WoW I would not have any expectation that the first time I loaded the game I would be given a fully maxed out character kitted out in the best possible gear in the game. However, for a shooter such as Overwatch I would expect to have access to some (not all) of the characters, and that what characters I did have access to would have the default weapon loadouts.

But for a Collectible Card Game, I certainly would not expect to have 100% of all the cards the first time I loaded up the game. Anyone who has that sort of expectation from a CCG is completely addle pated. That's not how CCGs work. Never was, and never will be.

so, you don't like having access to all the content of a game?


In a CCG? Hm - no - I would say that I would NOT like having access to all the content in a CCG. Part of the appeal of a CCG is learning how to maximize the resources a person has and making the best decks you can from an incomplete library. I enjoy the practice of making decks from what I've got, and having "all" the content of a CCG would take away from that. It would allow greater overall variety, but I'd lose the puzzle aspect of working within limitations.

I'm more than content with the 85%+ cards I get from my quest gold, and I feel absolutely no need to have 100% of the cards to have a complete, enjoyable game experience.

I - in fact - somewhat pity the people who desperately cling to the false, bias-driven opinion that they "must" have all the cards to enjoy the game. They have shackled their enjoyment to be predicated on such a tiny margin that I expect it is almost impossible for them to enjoy anything at all. If that's the kind of attitude they apply to their larger lives (let alone silly games like HS), then they would always be bitter, angry, and resentful at what they don't have rather than being happy, grateful for, and enjoying the things they do have. That would be a sad existence.
02/22/2019 01:46 PMPosted by Shakou
i don't care if it's ccg or rts or fps or moba
Of course you don't.

02/22/2019 01:46 PMPosted by Shakou
i play video games to have fun and the fun in hs is about playing cards and ranking up
And yet you don't need even half of the Standard collection to do either of those.

02/22/2019 01:46 PMPosted by Shakou
not grinding/buying to wank over a collection (which, in the end, you don't even own)...
For most, it is. If it wasn't, they wouldn't be playing, if they were smart.

Don't like the business model and you want to own a whole game when purchased? Quit Hearthstone. Because it's obviously not for you.

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