Rogue UP

Play Mode Discussion
Rogue is UP right now. Cold blood nerf killed the class. Please undo the nerf and delete Baku instead.
Can't argue with Valeera herself, can we?
"UP?" Underpowered? Nah, Rogue is fine. There's still a handful of legend-viable Rogue decks post-nerfs.
02/21/2019 07:36 PMPosted by freckles
"UP?" Underpowered? Nah, Rogue is fine. There's still a handful of legend-viable Rogue decks post-nerfs.
no it's bad
I have to agree. Rogue is in a very bad spot right now. Rogue got a lot of control cards to use, but they are all meme cards.

Those cards are the following. Pick Pocket, Tess Greymane, Pogo Hopper, Face Collector, Lilian Voss, Academic Espionage, Spirit of the Shark, Myra Rotspring.

Cards are too slow for competitive play and too meme orientated torwards memes and random RNG to use vs other real control decks. Decks that don't rely on RNG nearly as much.

Rogue could use some non-RNG bases control cards...

Seems Blizzard is set in stone to keep rogue only relevant in wild and to focus on it mainly being a tempo or meme style deck. Very unfortunate.
02/21/2019 07:42 PMPosted by Valeera
02/21/2019 07:36 PMPosted by freckles
"UP?" Underpowered? Nah, Rogue is fine. There's still a handful of legend-viable Rogue decks post-nerfs.
no it's bad


So it's down, not up, isn't it?...
If you want to play a broken class play hunter or priest.
The Spectral Cutlass core will remain intact after rotation. There's still time for Burgle Rogue to shine.
Thief Rogue does alright occassionally.
Druid<Shaman<Rogue<Warrior<Warlock<Paladin<Priest<Hunter
Life steal nerf pretty much put legendary rogue weapon out of commission...which might have been fine but the change to a 1 cost 1 turn lifesteal is simply awful. That is a card nobody will play, because its simply not worth it, when the spectral cutlass has it on all the time.

The weapon/pirate decks have been forgotten a little just no love being given to them. No new weapon buffing pirates was a blow having lost cards like the give Southsea Squid face and Naga Corsair. These were a big miss for me.

https://www.hearthstonetopdecks.com/cards/southsea-squidface/
https://www.hearthstonetopdecks.com/cards/naga-corsair

Its an unreliable deck i play now and winning is quite luck based for me at the moment..running a Spectral Cutlass deck. I would say my win rate is about 55% but it could be higher if people didn't have such OP hero power cards. Frost Lich Jaina/ Rexxar/Guldan/Anduin ...but that's another story.
https://hsreplay.net/replay/pvZSwhjPwJ6briJuzrpmKk

Too slow? UP? This Rogue got unlucky, I definitely pulled a rabbit out of the hat to pull through, but look at what it is capable of. Turn 2; cheat a weapon out, turn 3 play weapon 3/2 attack, turn 4; play deathrattle, attack=trigger deathrattle; cheat minion out of your hand, I've seen the same play with Maly cheat out several Malygos by turn 5 and OTK easy, that's just 1 deck.

It can also pull out a 3/4 on turn 3, prep, mana crystal, shuffle 20 cards from opponents class change their cost to 1, then mill itself for endless cards that cost 1 mana. Here's that deck;

https://hsreplay.net/replay/8ZVXQuSNtKFhv9qmADCvx7

Turn 4 he's playing 1 cost Lady in White, turn 5 1 cost Prophet, Turn 6 saps my 5 cost, prep draw 4 cards, turn 7 he's got 5/5 copy of lightwell for 1 mana, 1 mana mass dispell at his disposal, if he'd drawn more cards to draw more cards it'd be even worse. I was EXTREMELY lucky to RNG the perfect cards to survive and make a come back in an impossible situation. Most decks wouldn't have been able to and it easily could've turned into a turn 5-8 lethal if it RNG'd differently for him or me.

You absolutely cannot look at those two decks/replays and tell me Rogue is UP.

Who goes first, who gets the mana crystal, what cards are drawn to begin with and shortly after, GREATLY impact who wins no matter how good or bad a deck is.

I just lost to a PLD with a board full of tokens he gave taunt to, while I had a board full of 5/5s but couldn't get through (No AOE in hand) and he won because he had 4/1 weapon and got me down to 4 life, absolutely nothing I could do, if the who went first was reversed I'd have beat him easily. If I was able to draw AOE, beat him easily.

Here's that replay for reference;

https://hsreplay.net/replay/mGYooUFro8nKJ32WnHVTMj

This game is determined by Rock/Paper/Scissor elements, RNG elements, lots of random luck who goes first, who gets the crystal, what cards are drawn, if you run into a deck you didn't have an answer for, adjust your deck to have an answer, you still have luck to draw the answer, to have enough mana/tempo to play the answer, even if you do you can still lose from other factors, and there's always other decks that you can't answer.

Rogue is and always has been one of the top classes.
Rogue is and always has been one of the top classes.


Meh..i would have said that Priest, Hunter, Paladin and maybe Mage are always solid picks. Rogue/Warrior/Druid/Warlock/shaman seem to have ups and downs.
02/22/2019 02:45 AMPosted by Phenomenal
https://hsreplay.net/replay/pvZSwhjPwJ6briJuzrpmKk

Too slow? UP? This Rogue got unlucky, I definitely pulled a rabbit out of the hat to pull through, but look at what it is capable of. Turn 2; cheat a weapon out, turn 3 play weapon 3/2 attack, turn 4; play deathrattle, attack=trigger deathrattle; cheat minion out of your hand, I've seen the same play with Maly cheat out several Malygos by turn 5 and OTK easy, that's just 1 deck.


Details. I once got a 28 dmg lifesteal Kingsbane and smashed a quest Warrior in the face who had stacked almost 20 armor. Just because some remote event happens once doesn’t mean it is representative of a class.

You absolutely cannot look at those two decks/replays and tell me Rogue is UP.


Rogue is underpowered (compared to some other classes). Rather than use pointless anecdotes, I’m going to address the meta.

Rogue is and always has been one of the top classes.


Interestingly, this is often parroted. According to both Tempostorm AND Vicious Syndicate, rogues have been mostly competitive but have had less T0/T1 decks than druid (jade), warrior(pirate/patron), priest(razakus/gallery-wall), hunter(secret/dr), paladin (secret/odd) and warlock(zoolock/gd) over the last five years. Only miracle, keleseth and odd rogue have cracked T1. None broke meta and only miracle included more than 60%rogue cards.

During the cycle end, quest rogue, kingsbane rogue and odd rogue will disappear from standard. Miracle rogue will lose a third of its moving parts and deathrattle rogue will as well. None of those decks have been T1 in the past 5 yrs except odd.

Rogues will be stuck with T4 pirate rogue and T4/5 meme burgle rogue, as well as a shell miracle rogue. That’s it. Rogues have had more nerfed cards than any other class and even T3/4 decks, like kingsbane and quest, have gotten the nerf hammer. I suppose someone could argue that they’re oppressive but there are plenty of abusive, oppressive uninteractive non-rogue, T0/1, meta-busting decks that never get touched. Think about the standard meta for the last 3 months...I’m sure everyone can come up with a few.

I trashed all my current year cards to focus on next standard cycle decks and I can affirm that unless rogue gets some truly broken cards next set, things will be very tough for the class. Don’t believe me? Build some rogue decks with only base/classic, ww, bd & rumble and see how far you get.
"Just because some remote event happens once doesn’t mean it is representative of a class."

I agree but those are just proof examples, that Rogue consistently pulls that off in both decks, sometimes its worse and they manage it get it later and double it or more, I've watched 60 cards shuffled into their deck and I've watched much worse examples of the deathrattle multiple triggers early game that were far more lethal.

I think the point I was making is every deck is slow unless its aggro which runs out of steam and fades if it doesn't achieve lethal before turn 10 its down hill. I believe that's why a lot of people are playing things like Big Priest to max value and have a OTK win condition to combat other decks that aim for OTK and/or late game conditions because most early game conditions are unreliable and/or fade if they're controlled, but they still get wins off any deck that starts slow due to draw or otherwise.

I agree Rogue isn't the best, hasn't been for years, but it and always has been viable and always seem cheap in how it achieves win conditions or control. And I agree the same can be said for most decks, I really feel the game is broken in a lot of ways and needs more ways to stall the action until matches get more interesting and less ways to OTK and aggro early.

"Meh..i would have said that Priest, Hunter, Paladin and maybe Mage are always solid picks. Rogue/Warrior/Druid/Warlock/shaman seem to have ups and downs."

Priest has been mostly down and more recently been made viable, prior to that Druid originally wasn't great and people pushed for it and it's been at or around the top. Hunter is always viable yet weak at the same time, but much easier to run it back 2-3 times compared to classes that get closer to fatigue. PLD has definitely always been among the top. Mage has mostly been around the top if played right cause control / freeze / OTK / easy lethal. Warlock used to be terrible and lately its been amazing, Shaman has been better lately but not in the ways I like to see, I hate token decks, and that has been the most viable option for shaman lately.

The way I view Rogue is an advanced control class. It isn't easy to home brew a successful Rogue, skilled players can manage and it relied on core elements like prep that are crucial and it really struggles without. I still recall when draws weren't so abundant and Auctioneer made Rogue one of the best.

It also has some of the most valuable core cards IMO, sap is a super powerful card at any point in the game it can shift the tempo and basically erase your opponents last turn plus has some side effects that can be exploited by filling your opponents hand. Freezing trap can be finessed sap cannot. It can work as a silence and removes which completely destroys cards like carnivorous cube and plenty of others. And it has a ton of gimmicky specializations. Kingsbane was definitely OP and needed to be nerfed, it wasn't an auto-win but still OP. Auctioneer got nerfed because of Rogue exploits. (And druid). It's definitely one of the harder classes to play successfully but when done right it can control the game in ways only it can. Most importantly is it has always been a class that cycles its deck which used to be game breaking because no other class could complete with its ability to cycle other than maybe druid and that's detrimental especially when you get a slow start, Rogue is usually capable of cycling its way back to control the tempo and very hard to keep up with. Now there's just a lot of OTK conditions that trump anything if they hit so if you're not aggro to the face early or have an early OTK you're not going to be consistent and its making a lot of really good decks look (or at least feel at times) bad.
02/22/2019 12:39 AMPosted by Melomaniac
I have to agree. Rogue is in a very bad spot right now. Rogue got a lot of control cards to use, but they are all meme cards.

Those cards are the following. Pick Pocket, Tess Greymane, Pogo Hopper, Face Collector, Lilian Voss, Academic Espionage, Spirit of the Shark, Myra Rotspring.

Cards are too slow for competitive play and too meme orientated torwards memes and random RNG to use vs other real control decks. Decks that don't rely on RNG nearly as much.

Rogue could use some non-RNG bases control cards...

Seems Blizzard is set in stone to keep rogue only relevant in wild and to focus on it mainly being a tempo or meme style deck. Very unfortunate.
Tess is exceptionally powerful. Zuljin/yogg level impact. The main issue is that the burgle core is way too slow for the game right now
It’s the nerfs. Each of the last 5 nerf patches have hit Rogue.

But it’s also the synergies. Rogue has gotten some bat crazy stuff all over the place that’s more susceptible to nerfs since each strong card does very specific roles. On the other hand Paladin a ton of cards for each function and many that are absolutely fantastic and easier to replace.

And the Hero card. Valeera needs super strong late game to make up for the terrible battlecry, a bad version of Paladin’s time out spell. On the other hand Rexxar and Malfurion are auto include in almost any decks of their classes and way easier to use.
Considering the stuff I still see rogue pull off? Infinite generation/recovery of ridiculous cards for endless control? Ending the game after at least 8 Tess plays (and having killed her six times, not just her bouncing on and off the field), you having no deck, no hand, no board; while the rogue still has full health, 27 armor, and 92 cards in its deck with a full board and powered up Cutlass?

No, it's not UP, if anything more nerfs are required.
02/21/2019 07:27 PMPosted by Valeera
Rogue is UP right now. Cold blood nerf killed the class. Please undo the nerf and delete Baku instead.
You must play Standard?
Wild Rogue is OOC and is front-center in the Wild Meta.

Not all inclusive, just a couple:
Shadowstep your Coldlight early, so turn 2-3-4. Combo those 2 cards, beat non-aggro. This 2-card deck is constant in Wild, literally constant. You deckbuild for it / avoid playing a deck that loses to it (which is hard/impossible to do if not-aggro). Shadow-Light is designed to beat non-aggro, barring a 1-card carry deck like DK Rex that doesn't get milled.

Hit Ships Cannon w/o Patches, Prep Raiding Party.
Pirate Rogue is real strong, not as good as Shadowstep Coldlight but idk where you're seeing Vallera too weak with these 2 decks.

Quest Rogue not sure about, it def seems weaker than Shadowstep your Coldlight no doubt that deck is soooo overpwered the 2 card combo Shadowstep Coldlight.

Wild Big Priest is all the time.
DK Rex all the time.

But nothing comes close to how-often you que into Coldlight Oracle + Shadowstep early same-turn. Track it, surely it's > 50 percent but devs nerf Equality that's the problem not Coldight's targetability right?

Turn-3 Coldight Oracle + Shadowstep.
Thanks devs, non-aggro has a chance here right?

Why can't Coldlight Oracle be untargetable?
How does that hurt the game overall?
It doesn't it takes Mill Rogue to a reasonable powerlevel, while preserving Coldlight for all other decks.
02/22/2019 08:28 AMPosted by Thorodan
02/21/2019 07:27 PMPosted by Valeera
Rogue is UP right now. Cold blood nerf killed the class. Please undo the nerf and delete Baku instead.
You must play Standard?
Wild Rogue is OOC and is front-center in the Wild Meta.

Not all inclusive, just a couple:
Shadowstep your Coldlight early, so turn 2-3-4. Combo those 2 cards, beat non-aggro. This 2-card deck is constant in Wild, literally constant. You deckbuild for it / avoid playing a deck that loses to it (which is hard/impossible to do if not-aggro). Shadow-Light is designed to beat non-aggro, barring a 1-card carry deck like DK Rex that doesn't get milled.

Hit Ships Cannon w/o Patches, Prep Raiding Party.
Pirate Rogue is real strong, not as good as Shadowstep Coldlight but idk where you're seeing Vallera too weak with these 2 decks.

Quest Rogue not sure about, it def seems weaker than Shadowstep your Coldlight no doubt that deck is soooo overpwered the 2 card combo Shadowstep Coldlight.

Wild Big Priest is all the time.
DK Rex all the time.

But nothing comes close to how-often you que into Coldlight Oracle + Shadowstep early same-turn. Track it, surely it's > 50 percent but devs nerf Equality that's the problem not Coldight's targetability right?

Turn-3 Coldight Oracle + Shadowstep.
Thanks devs, non-aggro has a chance here right?

Why can't Coldlight Oracle be untargetable?
How does that hurt the game overall?
It doesn't it takes Mill Rogue to a reasonable powerlevel, while preserving Coldlight for all other decks.


Yes, mill Rogue is tier 1 for the hurt feelings crowd.

But for the competitive scene Wild is too aggressive to even be tier 3.

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