More Dirty Rats isn't Good

Play Mode Discussion
Disruption should be printed, just not more stuff like Dirty Rat. Dirty Rat alongside Demonic Project are very randomised. Simply like you roll the dice and if you roll you a 6, you win, if not, you don't. People complain about Combo decks being uninteractive, but immediately say that Dirty Rat should be a classic card!! Randomness is less interactive than an OTK. Future disruption cards shouldn't be these bad tech cards that don't help at all a portion of the time but just flat out win the game single handedly when they do hit. Interactivity should still allow the opponent to win, but when played correctly, would stall them significantly. Like something that clogged their deck with stuff or reshuffled their combo into their deck. Mojo Master Ziji is a great example of a disruption that doesn't just win you the game. Although she sucks, but that's because most Combo decks suck. You get what I mean though. A roll the dice card that could flat out win you the game without any real need for planning isn't interactive. So why should you want more uninteractive cards when that is the exact thing that people hate about the decks they counter?
Control players want free wins vs combo. They don't want balance. They just don't like that their deck can lose to something.

Even mojomaster feels rather oppressive to some combo.
How would you propose to make a card that can stop an opponent from killing you with spells from 30+ health to 0?

Do you allow targeted hand destruction? Then you are talking a 100% chance to remove the key combo piece and no defense against it.

You can't add anything more complex than secrets to interact with your opponent's turn. A neutral secret would be incredibly easy to play around.

Any minion with an effect that simply delays it doesn't fix the otk problem.

So if not a RNG card, how would you approach solving the combo problem?

Hearthstone is a simplistic game to a fault here. It can't support an instant win from hand in a way that feels "fun and interactve," which necessitates neutral cards like Dirty Rat to keep them in check as they are continuing to become more and more common.

Yes, it feels crappy to lose to a RNG effect that ruined you deck's only win condition.

It is equally unfun to run into a deck that has control tools that you can not possibly punch through while the opponent builds up an instant win condition in hand that you also can't stop.

You know WHAT they are doing, there is no surprise, you just can't stop it.

That's why dirty rat equivalents are a necessary evil.
Dirty rat was good because it was random. It was actually a risk. Sure I could ruin someone's combo. Also if you play it at the wrong time or against the wrong opponent it can put you at a major disadvantage by pulling something you aren't ready for. Demonic project is decent too because while it changes a card in the opponents deck it could also take an unimportant card in the deck and make it something much better. Risk and reward, that is how it should be.

The problem these days is that there are too many things going into the game that don't have a downside or counter. That is just bad game design.
I think the OP's point is...

Adding RNG to a situation that is non interactive isn't really being more interactive.

Add something you can control because, this game is already too random.
02/19/2019 07:21 AMPosted by LEETHELIVER
Disruption should be printed, just not more stuff like Dirty Rat. Dirty Rat alongside Demonic Project are very randomised. Simply like you roll the dice and if you roll you a 6, you win, if not, you don't. People complain about Combo decks being uninteractive, but immediately say that Dirty Rat should be a classic card!! Randomness is less interactive than an OTK. Future disruption cards shouldn't be these bad tech cards that don't help at all a portion of the time but just flat out win the game single handedly when they do hit. Interactivity should still allow the opponent to win, but when played correctly, would stall them significantly. Like something that clogged their deck with stuff or reshuffled their combo into their deck. Mojo Master Ziji is a great example of a disruption that doesn't just win you the game. Although she sucks, but that's because most Combo decks suck. You get what I mean though. A roll the dice card that could flat out win you the game without any real need for planning isn't interactive. So why should you want more uninteractive cards when that is the exact thing that people hate about the decks they counter?


Dirty Rat isn't completely random. Your odds are way different depending on when you play it. That's where the skill comes in.

Dirty Rat punishes ultra greedy combo decks that don't run many minions and telegraph their combo (Maly Rogue and Dream Petal Florist decks). It gives you a chance against more resilient combo decks (decks that actually run a good amount of minions like Shudderwock), but it likely won't win you the game against them. It just improves those match ups from unwinnable to merely bad.

OTK decks are great when there is real counter play. They're terrible when there isn't any.
02/19/2019 08:08 AMPosted by Smeet
How would you propose to make a card that can stop an opponent from killing you with spells from 30+ health to 0?

That's oddly specific and just counters a certain type of deck that could be countered more fairly and more creatively.

02/19/2019 08:08 AMPosted by Smeet
Do you allow targeted hand destruction? Then you are talking a 100% chance to remove the key combo piece and no defense against it.

That's why I made this post. I think that hand destruction is badly designed disruption. Removing the only thing that keeps it from polarizing a matchup makes it even worse.

02/19/2019 08:08 AMPosted by Smeet
You can't add anything more complex than secrets to interact with your opponent's turn. A neutral secret would be incredibly easy to play around.

A neutral secret wouldn't be likely for obvious reasons, but possibly a card that discovers a Mage Secret (think like Counterspell, Spellbender, Explosive Runes, etc. Other classes don't have secrets that are as big of a deal) and plays it immediatly or something like that could be interesting, but a card like that would more likely be in Mage and there is a version in Mage already

02/19/2019 08:08 AMPosted by Smeet
Any minion with an effect that simply delays it doesn't fix the otk problem.

I view a good form of disruption to be exactly like this. Something that wins single handedly is a bad design, but nobody complains about something like Healing Rain against Aggro. A single card that could be teched into an infinite value deck to cover its main weakness is bad design. That's why it should be treated like Healing Rain. OTK shouldn't be viewed as a, "problem," either. OTK decks require just as much skill as the other deck archetypes. Disruption should be printed because in the future, maybe there will be an OTK heavy meta where cards like this give other decks a chance.

02/19/2019 08:08 AMPosted by Smeet
So if not a RNG card, how would you approach solving the combo problem?

A card that shuffles each player's 2 leftmost cards into their deck and draws both player 2 cards would help significantly. Naturally, combo pieces will move to the left of your hand as the game moves on, so this card could work well if timed correctly. It could also be a card that shuffled both players' hands into their deck and they drew cards equal to the amount of cards that it shuffled. I didn't mention cost or stats because those wouldn't matter near about as much as the ability.

02/19/2019 08:08 AMPosted by Smeet
Hearthstone is a simplistic game to a fault here. It can't support an instant win from hand in a way that feels "fun and interactve," which necessitates neutral cards like Dirty Rat to keep them in check as they are continuing to become more and more common.

Instant Wins with no preparation or anything should never be added to the game because of them being impossible to seem fun. Instead, a form of stall is necessary, right? I mean there's nothing wrong with it is there? It gives you more time to kill them.

02/19/2019 08:08 AMPosted by Smeet
Yes, it feels crappy to lose to a RNG effect that ruined you deck's only win condition.

It is equally unfun to run into a deck that has control tools that you can not possibly punch through while the opponent builds up an instant win condition in hand that you also can't stop.

You know WHAT they are doing, there is no surprise, you just can't stop it.

You stop them by killing them. Simple as that. Combo decks have to sacrafice some control tools for room to have more Draw and Combo Peices. So they won't have as much as a typical control deck. Therefore, you have more of a chance than you give yourself credit for. This type of disruption I've mentioned is what enables you to have more time to kill them. A good general rule of thumb is when you start hating a deck archetype and thinking it's OP, try playing it. Everything in Hearthstone is easier said than done, trust me. And the best way of seeing this is by trying it yourself.

02/19/2019 08:08 AMPosted by Smeet
That's why dirty rat equivalents are a necessary evil.

I honestly don't think they are though. Disruption cards are, but a Dirty Rat isn't.
I see your worst case scenario where Combos run rampant since nothing can oppose them or their game plan, so nobody does, but another nightmare scenerio is a grinder deck that plays games that last over half an hour and doesn't do anything but remove your stuff at tier 1?

Simply put, something that can beat a deck single handedly is very, very scary. Stall seems like a logical option, but if you have a better solution please let me know. You don't need like stats or anything, just what would the ability be?
02/19/2019 09:30 AMPosted by LEETHELIVER


Simply put, something that can beat a deck single handedly is very, very scary. Stall seems like a logical option, but if you have a better solution please let me know. You don't need like stats or anything, just what would the ability be?


But don't forget, burning your own card can make you quit too!

ie. Overdrawing and burning your shudderwok, mechathun, w/e

SO, you have to consider milling too.
02/19/2019 09:16 AMPosted by EdwardCoug
02/19/2019 07:21 AMPosted by LEETHELIVER
Disruption should be printed, just not more stuff like Dirty Rat. Dirty Rat alongside Demonic Project are very randomised. Simply like you roll the dice and if you roll you a 6, you win, if not, you don't. People complain about Combo decks being uninteractive, but immediately say that Dirty Rat should be a classic card!! Randomness is less interactive than an OTK. Future disruption cards shouldn't be these bad tech cards that don't help at all a portion of the time but just flat out win the game single handedly when they do hit. Interactivity should still allow the opponent to win, but when played correctly, would stall them significantly. Like something that clogged their deck with stuff or reshuffled their combo into their deck. Mojo Master Ziji is a great example of a disruption that doesn't just win you the game. Although she sucks, but that's because most Combo decks suck. You get what I mean though. A roll the dice card that could flat out win you the game without any real need for planning isn't interactive. So why should you want more uninteractive cards when that is the exact thing that people hate about the decks they counter?


Dirty Rat isn't completely random. Your odds are way different depending on when you play it. That's where the skill comes in.

Dirty Rat punishes ultra greedy combo decks that don't run many minions and telegraph their combo (Maly Rogue and Dream Petal Florist decks). It gives you a chance against more resilient combo decks (decks that actually run a good amount of minions like Shudderwock), but it likely won't win you the game against them. It just improves those match ups from unwinnable to merely bad.

OTK decks are great when there is real counter play. They're terrible when there isn't any.

Oh, what a relief!! Dirty Rat only beats OTK decks that have ltitle minions!! Thankfully OTK decks are just Control decks with a Combo- Oh wait...

Dirty Rat likely won't win against minion heavy OTK decks, but there's still that 1/5, 1/8, etc. chance that it does. A literal roll of the dice isn't fun or interactive.

The thing is though, that ultimately, you don't know what's in your opponent's hand. You can guess or wait for a while or whatever, but at the end of the day, Dirty Rat still defined by RNG, and there is nothing an OTK deck can do about bad luck.

I agree that OTK is great when there's counterplay, but you know a card that you can't play around and is also RNG heavy in terms of when you draw it? Keleseth. Keleseth doesn't even win them the game though. It does heavily criple the opponent when you play Keleseth on turn 2. Would you say that drawing and playing Keleseth on turn 2 is interactive? Because turn 2 Keleseth is less likely than most Dirty Rat RNG rolls and I don't know about you, but I haven't seen Keleseth recieving much praise. Of course I mean this if there was an OTK heavy meta, but since it's the least played currently, teching against OTK would be stupid. I mean a meta where you could reliably get matched up against an OTK.

I simply suggest a way to disrupt their hand without breaking their deck's purpose.
02/19/2019 08:41 AMPosted by Right
I think the OP's point is...

Adding RNG to a situation that is non interactive isn't really being more interactive.

Add something you can control because, this game is already too random.

Yes and No
Randomness isn't interactive, but I don't think that a targetable Dirty Rat should be added. I think something that acts more as how Healing works against Aggro or somethin of that variety rather than something that destroys the entire purpose of an archetype.
02/19/2019 09:33 AMPosted by Right
02/19/2019 09:30 AMPosted by LEETHELIVER


Simply put, something that can beat a deck single handedly is very, very scary. Stall seems like a logical option, but if you have a better solution please let me know. You don't need like stats or anything, just what would the ability be?


But don't forget, burning your own card can make you quit too!

ie. Overdrawing and burning your shudderwok, mechathun, w/e

SO, you have to consider milling too.

True, but Coldlight Oracle rotated. Leaving just a few cards that draw the opponent cards in standard (I believe it's only Naturalize and the Mage Project card). So burning will be the player's fault and not usually something the opponent can force you to do.
If you don't want a single card to be able to beat your deck, don't build your deck around a single card.

Decks that min/max should have strong counters, because they're glass cannons, they're meant to be fragile. If not they're just OP.
The inherent flaw that is seen on OPs flaw is that you assume people who use dirty rat immediately loses or wins the game. For a combo if you are only playing 4 minion pieces and the rest are spells, you deserve to lose the game if dirty rat is all that is needed. Your argument against dirty rat is no different than combo players saying control needs a win condition that isn't just spell removal.

Another issue with your argument is that you assume the randomness is entirely based on a hail Mary play with no thought process at all. There is a mile wide gap between Paveling Book winning world championship because a 7 mana spell generated from a 1 mana 1/1 vs. Someone who risks playing dirty rat and instead of having a combo piece dropped loses because there's a free Doomguard played for you opponent. You see, the inherent randomness of Dirty Rat is exactly why that card is completely balanced, yet also needed. It is a card that is as likely to drop a 4 mama 7/7 for free as it is to drop a 2 mana 3/2 mage combo piece. How you play it is actively determined a lot by skill and knowing plays. And countering dirty rat can also be just as easily done by keeping certain cards in your hand that equalize out the chance of having a combo piece destroyed.

A perfect example of this scenario is dirty rat playing against MechaThun in Wild. Warlock, the primary player with MechaThun will hold a bunch of heavy statted demons to minimize the chance of having MechaThun being dropped. The dirty rat player will know that an incorrectly played dirty rat will automatically lose the game, but playing won't automatically win it. The important thing to note however is that, apart from a few Warlock Cards, Dirty Rat is only one of two neutral anti combo tech that can permanently interfere/negate the potential play of combo. The lack of tech against combo otherwise is definitely not healthy because once OTK becomes meta, it will take more than just aggro to fight them off. Aggro is hugely at disadvantage to MechaThun lock because despite being a combo deck, it is purely based on drawing, healing, creating taunts, and removal. This is why Dirty Rat cards NEED to exist in this game.
02/19/2019 10:25 AMPosted by RinseWizard
If you don't want a single card to be able to beat your deck, don't build your deck around a single card.

Decks that min/max should have strong counters, because they're glass cannons, they're meant to be fragile. If not they're just OP.

There is no neutral disruption like Dirty Rat right now. Only one class has a tier 1 OTK deck. Priest. Explain. Seriously, how is OTK not the best archetype right now when there are a total of 2 hand disruption cards and they are both for warlock? I mean a glass cannon that is protected against every class except Warlock seems like it would be more prominent in the meta than in a single class.

All I'm saying here is that Combo isn't some, "Glass cannon," it's a control deck with less control cards, but more Draw and a win condition. It's a normal archetype and should be treated as such. Basing a strategy on 1 card isn't unfamiliar. Think about
Wall Priest: Divine Spirit
Handlock/Evenlock: Mountain Giant
Odd Mage: DK Jaina
Etc.
You may disagree, but those cards practically define those decks. Not to mention Genn and Baku themselves. Cubelock relies on just 2 different Demons, so does that mean it deserves a counter that ruins the archetype? Maybe a card that has a 50/50 chance to destroy any demon summoned for the rest of the game? Sounds fair since the deck relies on only 2 demons
02/19/2019 08:08 AMPosted by Smeet
How would you propose to make a card that can stop an opponent from killing you with spells from 30+ health to 0?

Do you allow targeted hand destruction? Then you are talking a 100% chance to remove the key combo piece and no defense against it.

You can't add anything more complex than secrets to interact with your opponent's turn. A neutral secret would be incredibly easy to play around.

Any minion with an effect that simply delays it doesn't fix the otk problem.

So if not a RNG card, how would you approach solving the combo problem?

Hearthstone is a simplistic game to a fault here. It can't support an instant win from hand in a way that feels "fun and interactve," which necessitates neutral cards like Dirty Rat to keep them in check as they are continuing to become more and more common.

Yes, it feels crappy to lose to a RNG effect that ruined you deck's only win condition.

It is equally unfun to run into a deck that has control tools that you can not possibly punch through while the opponent builds up an instant win condition in hand that you also can't stop.

You know WHAT they are doing, there is no surprise, you just can't stop it.

That's why dirty rat equivalents are a necessary evil.
They could very easily make non discard disruption dude. Mojomaster (which everyone here pretends doesn't exist) proves that. Here, I'll give my own example. Combo Disrupter. Common 2 Mana 1/1-Battlecry-Transform a random card in an opponet's hand into another random minion/spell for 2 turns. Bam. Fits the game. The idea the game is too simple to support non discard disruption is a myth. It just needs to DELAY rather than win outright, like Mojomaster or my fictional card. Yeah fatigue still loses, but control does NOT equal fatigue, and fatigue is a far worse style to have around than any combo deck, sorry for those in denial about that. I don't enjoy 30 minute matches against a deck of pure removal and sustain.
Combo decks have to sacrafice some control tools for room to have more Draw and Combo Peices. So they won't have as much as a typical control deck.


Aggro is hugely at disadvantage to MechaThun lock because despite being a combo deck, it is purely based on drawing, healing, creating taunts, and removal. This is why Dirty Rat cards NEED to exist in this game.


Pretty much this. Combo decks currently ARE just control decks with an OTK in them. They give up no more deck space on their otk combo and draw than a control deck does on threats. Furthermore. The added draw that combo decks run compared to standard control decks improve the consistency of those control tools.

It is far, far too safe for combo decks to run their combo as a single win condition. They aren't giving up anything to do so. Compare any two decks that run both a control and an otk variant. Tell me exactly what control tools the OTK deck is missing out on.

Killing the combo control decks first is just asking for hyper polarization between the best otk deck, the best counter to it, and maybe a few other things.

Like how we currently have combos priests v. hunter v. Everything else trying to beat one of those two classes.
02/19/2019 08:08 AMPosted by Smeet
How would you propose to make a card that can stop an opponent from killing you with spells from 30+ health to 0?


Then we also have to create stuff to stop the amount of infinite value/lifegain we currently have (Rexxar, Baku Tank Up, Frost Lich Jaina, Quest Priest/Benedictus, etc).

If Dirty Rat is fine for Control as a "2/6 opponent puts a random minion from hand into the board", then I also propose for Aggro a 1 mana 2/3 "opponent casts a random spell at random targets from their hand".

Same risk, same reward. You can make them cast an Arcane Intellect at turn 1 or burn a Flamestrike on nothing. It's even less auto-win then Dirty Rat pulling a combo piece. But let's see how Control players would react if such a card existed and they lost because they spent an AOE on nothing.


Pretty much this. Combo decks currently ARE just control decks with an OTK in them. They give up no more deck space on their otk combo and draw than a control deck does on threats. Furthermore. The added draw that combo decks run compared to standard control decks improve the consistency of those control tools.

It is far, far too safe for combo decks to run their combo as a single win condition. They aren't giving up anything to do so. Compare any two decks that run both a control and an otk variant. Tell me exactly what control tools the OTK deck is missing out on.


Then the problem, ironically, is the overabundance of Control tools available and that need to be reduced so Combo becomes less safer.
02/19/2019 03:28 PMPosted by Lanko
02/19/2019 08:08 AMPosted by Smeet
How would you propose to make a card that can stop an opponent from killing you with spells from 30+ health to 0?


Then we also have to create stuff to stop the amount of infinite value/lifegain we currently have (Rexxar, Baku Tank Up, Frost Lich Jaina, Quest Priest/Benedictus, etc).

If Dirty Rat is fine for Control as a "2/6 opponent puts a random minion from hand into the board", then I also propose for Aggro a 1 mana 2/3 "opponent casts a random spell at random targets from their hand".

Same risk, same reward. You can make them cast an Arcane Intellect at turn 1 or burn a Flamestrike on nothing. It's even less auto-win then Dirty Rat pulling a combo piece. But let's see how Control players would react if such a card existed and they lost because they spent an AOE on nothing.


Stats are probably too high, but why not? Its anti-combo as well though, remember that if you're making this suggestion out of spite for the suggestion that Rat is actually a well designed tech card.

02/19/2019 03:31 PMPosted by Lanko
Then the problem, ironically, is the overabundance of Control tools available and that need to be reduced so Combo becomes less safer.


Or, combo decks need a reason not to include so many (aka the risk of good neutral tech options). Probably a combination of both tbh, control tools are a bit ridiculous atm, especially with aggro being obliterated at every turn recently.
02/19/2019 11:35 AMPosted by LEETHELIVER
02/19/2019 10:25 AMPosted by RinseWizard
If you don't want a single card to be able to beat your deck, don't build your deck around a single card.

Decks that min/max should have strong counters, because they're glass cannons, they're meant to be fragile. If not they're just OP.

There is no neutral disruption like Dirty Rat right now. Only one class has a tier 1 OTK deck. Priest. Explain. Seriously, how is OTK not the best archetype right now when there are a total of 2 hand disruption cards and they are both for warlock? I mean a glass cannon that is protected against every class except Warlock seems like it would be more prominent in the meta than in a single class.

All I'm saying here is that Combo isn't some, "Glass cannon," it's a control deck with less control cards, but more Draw and a win condition. It's a normal archetype and should be treated as such. Basing a strategy on 1 card isn't unfamiliar. Think about
Wall Priest: Divine Spirit
Handlock/Evenlock: Mountain Giant
Odd Mage: DK Jaina
Etc.
You may disagree, but those cards practically define those decks. Not to mention Genn and Baku themselves. Cubelock relies on just 2 different Demons, so does that mean it deserves a counter that ruins the archetype? Maybe a card that has a 50/50 chance to destroy any demon summoned for the rest of the game? Sounds fair since the deck relies on only 2 demons


I actually vastly prefer otk/control to straight control in theory. Dying by fatigue is boring. And, ironically, the main problem with otk right now is the control tools are so strong you don't need to put much draw in.

But that doesn't mean they have to rely on single cards. Even/cube lock doesn't Auto lose if you kill a single card, neither does the IF/DS priest (to pick an otk example). Bsm with Jaina still can win vs aggro if Jaina is on the bottom.

You could build a deck with an otk win condition that can still compete vs a vanilla midrange deck. Even Rez priest doesn't Auto lose if you transform velen.

The strength of mechathun is you only need two cards to pull off the combo (mc and something to kill it).

Why should a deck with a single win condition be as reliable as a deck with multiple win conditions?
02/19/2019 08:08 AMPosted by Smeet
How would you propose to make a card that can stop an opponent from killing you with spells from 30+ health to 0?


making a card that sets the max damage hero can take from spells to 1 each time kind like animated armor was but a battlecry lasting several turns

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