Blizzard Hypocricy and The leeroy jenkins meta

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Blizzard on Leeroy nerf back in the day: "“Leeroy Jenkins created a strategy that revolved around trying to defeat your opponent in one turn without requiring any cards on the board. Fighting for board control and battles between minions make an overall game of Hearthstone more fun and compelling, but taking 20+ damage in one turn is not particularly fun or interactive”

So lets go over some of the heroes at this point in time in the current otk meta.

REZ Priest: Turn 9 take 40 damage from cloning gallery mindblasts in one turn.
Control Priest: Turn 9 take 15 damage from alex and 15 damage from 3 mindblasts in two turns.
APM Priest: Turn 8-10 die from a charging boar for 32 damage in one turn.

Exodia Paladin: Probably the slowest of the otk decks but still 1 turn you dead.
Holy Wrath Paladin: Same story draw entire deck, counter your deck, then otk with up two too 25 damage shots to the face.

Mechathun Druid: You guessed it otk from nothing on board to you are dead.
Maly Druid: Get out maly then moonbeamers and swipes to face.

Mechathun Warlock: Yet Another otk deck. All it has to do is draw to fatigue then clears out its entire hand and wins in one go with cataclysm.

Maly Deathrattle Rogue: An off meta deck but it still works quite well and yes you guessed it kills you in one turn.

I guess we should be thankful hunter and warrior and such dont have otk decks yet? Can we get a woe Bundy give us Dirty Rat in standard???
I am guessing at least a couple of the above were things the developers didn't figure out before release, have seen it before with other games where they eventually admitted that they under-estimated the player base's capability in stacking things or making combos.
02/03/2019 03:04 PMPosted by Urza
Blizzard on Leeroy nerf back in the day: "“Leeroy Jenkins created a strategy that revolved around trying to defeat your opponent in one turn without requiring any cards on the board. Fighting for board control and battles between minions make an overall game of Hearthstone more fun and compelling, but taking 20+ damage in one turn is not particularly fun or interactive”

So lets go over some of the heroes at this point in time in the current otk meta.

REZ Priest: Turn 9 take 40 damage from cloning gallery mindblasts in one turn.
Control Priest: Turn 9 take 15 damage from alex and 15 damage from 3 mindblasts in two turns.
APM Priest: Turn 8-10 die from a charging boar for 32 damage in one turn.

Exodia Paladin: Probably the slowest of the otk decks but still 1 turn you dead.
Holy Wrath Paladin: Same story draw entire deck, counter your deck, then otk with up two too 25 damage shots to the face.

Mechathun Druid: You guessed it otk from nothing on board to you are dead.
Maly Druid: Get out maly then moonbeamers and swipes to face.

Mechathun Warlock: Yet Another otk deck. All it has to do is draw to fatigue then clears out its entire hand and wins in one go with cataclysm.

Maly Deathrattle Rogue: An off meta deck but it still works quite well and yes you guessed it kills you in one turn.

I guess we should be thankful hunter and warrior and such dont have otk decks yet? Can we get a woe Bundy give us Dirty Rat in standard???


Ah, the year of the mammoth, where it stopped mattering how much damage could be done from hand in one turn.

Some people like it, but this has been among the least fun I've had in this game since patron warrior was big.
I dont think hypocrisy is the right term, more a change in design philosophy. Last we heard on the topic was this a couple of years ago, not gonna quote it 'cos wall of text:

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/hearthstone/topic/20753247406?page=3#post-48

Given the cards/decks we have seen in recent times, to me, it seems that they have just changed their design philosophy more so than being hypocrites. And thats fine, goals change all the time, but an updated comment on the topic should be made as well. Would be nice at least.
Miracle druid down to 5 health. I had 27 health. He had played hakkar on turn 9. Toggwaggle turn 10 did 39 damage. Fun and interactive.

It's ok though blizz. I already started spending money on other games.
Sounds to me they just say whatever suits their needs. With that said, I do support nerfing cards for the sake of balance, but stealth nerfing classic cards round after round is really hurting my confidence in the dev's team.
I have the most fun when I'm playing miracle rogue.

Why? Because there's all these small details you can count up and factor in multiple turns ahead. But the thing is - your opponent (at least in theory; many players probably don't) can count those factors as well, and adjust / try and counter accordingly.

It's probably the closest to chess that a hearthstone match can become. Every turn matters, and it matters in advance and a lot. This is what ideal Hearthstone is to me - fun, interactive,- and above all, rewarding.

EDIT: also the reason the Cold Blood nerf frustrates me. Blizzard, do better, please.
The problem with that is that they created odd warrior.

It not even let most decks have a board while having a hero power that gives 4 armor per turn.

If you consider 20+ damage combos something to nerf you instantly turn odd warrior into a onipotent deck.

The more crazy blizzard goes with hearthstone more flexible they need to be with concepts like this.

It not matters what people really say because the numbers tell it all. Control tools are so opressive that combo decks prefer they over card draw and that is just not right.
02/03/2019 03:54 PMPosted by minami
The problem with that is that they created odd warrior.

It not even let most decks have a board while having a hero power that gives 4 armor per turn.

If you consider 20+ damage combos something to nerf you instantly turn odd warrior into a onipotent deck.

The more crazy blizzard goes with hearthstone more flexible they need to be with concepts like this.

It not matters what people really say because the numbers tell it all. Control tools are so opressive that combo decks prefer they over card draw and that is just not right.


Any cube deck beats odd warrior. Odd and even paladin do well. We don't need otk to beat control. Sticky boards beat them just fine. Midrange and aggro can beat control but the current OTK decks are even oppressive to those strategies, not just control.
02/03/2019 04:05 PMPosted by Immortal
02/03/2019 03:54 PMPosted by minami
The problem with that is that they created odd warrior.

It not even let most decks have a board while having a hero power that gives 4 armor per turn.

If you consider 20+ damage combos something to nerf you instantly turn odd warrior into a onipotent deck.

The more crazy blizzard goes with hearthstone more flexible they need to be with concepts like this.

It not matters what people really say because the numbers tell it all. Control tools are so opressive that combo decks prefer they over card draw and that is just not right.


Any cube deck beats odd warrior. Odd and even paladin do well. We don't need otk to beat control. Sticky boards beat them just fine. Midrange and aggro can beat control but the current OTK decks are even oppressive to those strategies, not just control.


midrange beats combo better than it beats control.
aggro beats combo better than it beats control.

so, no.

hyper control (like odd warrior, like 4 Amaras, like 4-6 voidlords per game, and etc) is what forces OTK to be a thing.

In general, all archetypes are overly polarised on what they do:
control is too good on being control (infinite life)
aggro (even if only 2 aggro decks will remain after the nerfs) is too good on being aggro (t5-6 kills)
OTK is too good in being OTK (too much cycle)

the 3 above is what edges midrange, which tries to be somewhere in the middle, out of the meta.

basically, when all 3 archetypes are so good at what they do, they are the core that creates those super polarising matchups that we see nowadays.
02/03/2019 04:19 PMPosted by Shroud
02/03/2019 04:05 PMPosted by Immortal
...

Any cube deck beats odd warrior. Odd and even paladin do well. We don't need otk to beat control. Sticky boards beat them just fine. Midrange and aggro can beat control but the current OTK decks are even oppressive to those strategies, not just control.


midrange beats combo better than it beats control.
aggro beats combo better than it beats control.

so, no.

hyper control (like odd warrior, like 4 Amaras, like 4-6 voidlords per game, and etc) is what forces OTK to be a thing.

In general, all archetypes are overly polarised on what they do:
control is too good on being control (infinite life)
aggro (even if only 2 aggro decks will remain after the nerfs) is too good on being aggro (t5-6 kills)
OTK is too good in being OTK (too much cycle)

the 3 above is what edges midrange, which tries to be somewhere in the middle, out of the meta.

basically, when all 3 archetypes are so good at what they do, they are the core that creates those super polarising matchups that we see nowadays.
This

Decks have so much synergy and redundancy now adays that their win conditions have very little overlap. so many board clears that you don’t need a board or so many cheap threats you can afford to just keep going face no matter what.
02/03/2019 04:05 PMPosted by Immortal
02/03/2019 03:54 PMPosted by minami
The problem with that is that they created odd warrior.

It not even let most decks have a board while having a hero power that gives 4 armor per turn.

If you consider 20+ damage combos something to nerf you instantly turn odd warrior into a onipotent deck.

The more crazy blizzard goes with hearthstone more flexible they need to be with concepts like this.

It not matters what people really say because the numbers tell it all. Control tools are so opressive that combo decks prefer they over card draw and that is just not right.


Any cube deck beats odd warrior. Odd and even paladin do well. We don't need otk to beat control. Sticky boards beat them just fine. Midrange and aggro can beat control but the current OTK decks are even oppressive to those strategies, not just control.


And deathrattle was metagame during last months.
It only shows that the meta is in fact answers to play against insane control decks.

Be it deathrattle hunter, OTK or any other. You tried to say that it isn't opressive but only did prove that it is in fact overpolarized and people are desperate for answers against control that not sucks.

The first thing to answer is control and them the next is whatever counter the "control killer of the month".
02/03/2019 03:43 PMPosted by LiptonTea
Sounds to me they just say whatever suits their needs. With that said, I do support nerfing cards for the sake of balance, but stealth nerfing classic cards round after round is really hurting my confidence in the dev's team.


They lost my confidence long before 2018 and the failed druid nerfs. I'm honestly quite shocked anyone has even an ounce of respect for these clowns.
02/03/2019 03:54 PMPosted by minami
The problem with that is that they created odd warrior.

It not even let most decks have a board while having a hero power that gives 4 armor per turn.

If you consider 20+ damage combos something to nerf you instantly turn odd warrior into a onipotent deck.

The more crazy blizzard goes with hearthstone more flexible they need to be with concepts like this.

It not matters what people really say because the numbers tell it all. Control tools are so opressive that combo decks prefer they over card draw and that is just not right.


I completely disagree with this.

Some of the control tools being used in OTK deck is what makes some OTK decks so oppressive (points at chain gang and spreading plague).

Midrange decks and combo (I am not talking about OTK decks) like miracle rogue had always been favoured against control decks. Problem was, by the time Odd warrior arrived, midrange decks were already somewhat dead, pushed aside by combo decks or decks cheating out late game minions. The death of midrange deck, I’d say, truly had a huge impact on how the game is played.
I find it interesting how so many people quote that particular sentence when complaining about combo decks, since invariably they (1) ignore the context and (2) attempt to twist it to fit their views.

Why are people so quick to jump at this part in order to justify an irrational and manifestly biased hatred of combo decks...
but taking 20+ damage in one turn is not particularly fun or interactive.

...but completely disregard how control decks have completely invalidated this part, which also happens to be the reason combo is prevalent and effective by necessity?
Fighting for board control and battles between minions make an overall game of Hearthstone more fun and compelling
A few issues:
1) Leeroy was ending games before you could even interact.
2) It was 4 years ago, things change.
3) Leeroy was a 4-mana 6/2 Charge. That's insane even by Year of the Raven standards.

I would say that Blizzard has decided to move away from Fatigue. I think Mecha'thun and Hakkar are evident of this. The problem is that classes like Warrior are getting left behind.

I'm fine with OTK, I think there are two balance issues to consider:
1) What control tools are available?
2) What is the minimum turn count that an OTK should be allowed?
02/03/2019 03:04 PMPosted by Urza
Blizzard on Leeroy nerf back in the day: "“Leeroy Jenkins created a strategy that revolved around trying to defeat your opponent in one turn without requiring any cards on the board. Fighting for board control and battles between minions make an overall game of Hearthstone more fun and compelling, but taking 20+ damage in one turn is not particularly fun or interactive”

So lets go over some of the heroes at this point in time in the current otk meta.

REZ Priest: Turn 9 take 40 damage from cloning gallery mindblasts in one turn.
Control Priest: Turn 9 take 15 damage from alex and 15 damage from 3 mindblasts in two turns.
APM Priest: Turn 8-10 die from a charging boar for 32 damage in one turn.

Exodia Paladin: Probably the slowest of the otk decks but still 1 turn you dead.
Holy Wrath Paladin: Same story draw entire deck, counter your deck, then otk with up two too 25 damage shots to the face.

Mechathun Druid: You guessed it otk from nothing on board to you are dead.
Maly Druid: Get out maly then moonbeamers and swipes to face.

Mechathun Warlock: Yet Another otk deck. All it has to do is draw to fatigue then clears out its entire hand and wins in one go with cataclysm.

Maly Deathrattle Rogue: An off meta deck but it still works quite well and yes you guessed it kills you in one turn.

I guess we should be thankful hunter and warrior and such dont have otk decks yet? Can we get a woe Bundy give us Dirty Rat in standard???

I see you conveniently forgot Shaman. Shudderwock OTK is no more! Blizzard totally hate OTK!

...

...OK, they mostly hate Shaman.

But in all seriousness I fully agree with Phobetor above - Control is just as bad as OTK in striving to be as non-interactive as possible. These days I mostly find aggro vs aggro matches the most enjoyable as there's some actual interaction going on.
02/03/2019 03:33 PMPosted by Bowser
I dont think hypocrisy is the right term, more a change in design philosophy. Last we heard on the topic was this a couple of years ago, not gonna quote it 'cos wall of text:

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/hearthstone/topic/20753247406?page=3#post-48

Given the cards/decks we have seen in recent times, to me, it seems that they have just changed their design philosophy more so than being hypocrites. And thats fine, goals change all the time, but an updated comment on the topic should be made as well. Would be nice at least.


I don't think it's Bliz that changed its philosophy. It's the players.

It's players who thought wombo combos were cool. Players hated "tempostone" or "curvestone". They don't want to have to fight and trade from turn 1 and eventually develop to later minions, as that means less room in their deck to run their late game and greedy combos.

So over time, tempostone was nerfed and people had more time to develop their late game combos. Bliz added more stalls, more heals/armor, more sustain and card generation, more end game legendaries that entire win conditions can be built around, etc.

But now people say they don't like it. It turns out when everybody gets to develop late game combos, it becomes a nuclear arms race in building bigger and bigger combos, culminating in OTKs
02/03/2019 03:16 PMPosted by Headspin
I am guessing at least a couple of the above were things the developers didn't figure out before release, have seen it before with other games where they eventually admitted that they under-estimated the player base's capability in stacking things or making combos.


IF "things the developers didn't figure out before release" is the reason, then does it indicate that there is not enough test prior, or lack of time to complete the test, or lack of competent* people to handle the job.

While it can be argued that there will always be oversight, but is the reaction responses satisfactory if the oversight is identified?

*competent as in experienced enough to handle the job

02/03/2019 03:33 PMPosted by Bowser
I dont think hypocrisy is the right term, more a change in design philosophy. Last we heard on the topic was this a couple of years ago, not gonna quote it 'cos wall of text:

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/hearthstone/topic/20753247406?page=3#post-48

Given the cards/decks we have seen in recent times, to me, it seems that they have just changed their design philosophy more so than being hypocrites. And thats fine, goals change all the time, but an updated comment on the topic should be made as well. Would be nice at least.


I think many players would agree with the sentiment that the design does feel much different from those years that they have grown accustomed to. The problem is that these veteran group of players does not know how to plan going forward. How should they plan and invest their money, time, gold and dust?

If the Dev could engage with the player base more and better, than alot of problems on that level would have made the gaming experience better for this group.
02/03/2019 03:04 PMPosted by Urza
Blizzard on Leeroy nerf back in the day: "“Leeroy Jenkins created a strategy that revolved around trying to defeat your opponent in one turn without requiring any cards on the board. Fighting for board control and battles between minions make an overall game of Hearthstone more fun and compelling, but taking 20+ damage in one turn is not particularly fun or interactive”

So lets go over some of the heroes at this point in time in the current otk meta.

REZ Priest: Turn 9 take 40 damage from cloning gallery mindblasts in one turn.
Control Priest: Turn 9 take 15 damage from alex and 15 damage from 3 mindblasts in two turns.
APM Priest: Turn 8-10 die from a charging boar for 32 damage in one turn.

Exodia Paladin: Probably the slowest of the otk decks but still 1 turn you dead.
Holy Wrath Paladin: Same story draw entire deck, counter your deck, then otk with up two too 25 damage shots to the face.

Mechathun Druid: You guessed it otk from nothing on board to you are dead.
Maly Druid: Get out maly then moonbeamers and swipes to face.

Mechathun Warlock: Yet Another otk deck. All it has to do is draw to fatigue then clears out its entire hand and wins in one go with cataclysm.

Maly Deathrattle Rogue: An off meta deck but it still works quite well and yes you guessed it kills you in one turn.

I guess we should be thankful hunter and warrior and such dont have otk decks yet? Can we get a woe Bundy give us Dirty Rat in standard???
I wish they had consistency in thier nerf prerequisites.
But what can you expect from a poorly managed game?

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