VS Data Report #122: Genn & Baku ... Harming the Game

Play Mode Discussion
https://www.vicioussyndicate.com/vs-data-reaper-report-122/

Hunter has risen in popularity at higher levels of play and Midrange Hunter has completely taken over the legend meta. Priest is seeing declines in play across the board, especially at legend. There is a transition from Gallery Priest to Wall Priest, with the latter carrying a higher win rate recently.

A transition can also be observed in Warlock with more attention is given to Even and Zoo Warlock, and Cube, Mecha’thun and Midrange Warlock in decline. The Rogue class is extremely diverse and it’s very hard to guess what you’ve just run into on ladder. Odd Rogue is recovering in its play rate. Miracle Rogue is sticking around after its promising results. Malygos Rogue is also there, despite looking very weak. Various other decks are being played at lower rates: Quest Rogue, Cube Rogue, Tempo Rogue, Thief Rogue, and Even Rogue are all notable.

Paladin is exhibiting a small uptick in play, born from Even Paladin and Secret Paladin. Warrior is continuing to climb in popularity in the non-legend ranks. At legend, the class has dropped in popularity. Odd Warrior is the most popular archetype of the class, followed by Odd-Taunt Warrior and Rush Warrior.

Mage’s growth has been stopped, with Aggro-Odd Mage declining in popularity across the board. Druid is seeing another archetype rise in popularity at legend, overtaking both Miracle Druid and Malygos Druid ... the old 'Tog-M-Thun' Druid has resurfaced at higher levels of play. Shaman is showing no major signs of life. Elemental Shaman started seeing more play recently, but at legend, Shaman’s play rate is still close to 1%.


Despite a bit too much concentration of Priests and Hunters, there's a fair amount of spread in the overall meta. All the classes have options to run with, though Shaman are clearly the losers of the post-patch meta. It's funny though, because I sure seem to see a fair number of them in Casual, and they do pretty well.
I like the snippet below the main overview where they write several paragraphs about how Bakku and Genn are harming the game. I'm on my mobile phone right now so I can't quote it, but it would be nice to get that in here too. It's more than relevant for the thread discussion.
This what you mean?

"We’re genuinely concerned about Genn and Baku. They heavily promote coin differential (the win rate difference between going first and having the coin). Baku is a heavy promoter of excessive meta polarization. Subjectively, many players find the experience they create to be non-compelling game-play. And yet, Genn and Baku still have an entire year left in standard format.

Team 5, if you find these cards to be too complicated to change (we understand the headache involved in balancing them), can we see them being sent to the Hall of Fame as an emergency measure, for now, to guarantee a clean, fresh slate in the next standard year, free of the overpowering sets of KFT, K&C as well as Genn/Baku? We think many players would be excited by this prospect. Think about it."
Will baku and genn survive rotation?
The pressure to nerf them is coming from all sides lol.
02/21/2019 12:49 PMPosted by Rassy
Will baku and genn survive rotation?
The pressure to nerf them is coming from all sides lol.


Designer kind of revealed that Baku and Genn will dealt with at next rotation time. But how, that is unknown yet.

Myself I am completely fine with both of them. But I am also more or less fine with DK, Quest and most of the other mechanics which are openly hated here.

The risk is that after rotation we will be left with quite dull and uninspired gameplay. As much as people might hate Year of the Mammoth/Genn/Baku, they ad a lot of dynamic to the Hearthstone. Depowered Standard, might be actually deflated Standard. But we will see soon how it plays out.
The risk is that after rotation we will be left with quite dull and uninspired gameplay. As much as people might hate Year of the Mammoth/Genn/Baku, they ad a lot of dynamic to the Hearthstone. Depowered Standard, might be actually deflated Standard. But we will see soon how it plays out.


This is also a concern I have. There is no doubt that Knights of the Frozen Throne, Kobolds & Catacombs, and (to some extent) Journey to Ungoro were overtuned expansions. They were so powerful that the next 3 expansions that came after them are still being stifled by their presence.

But it can't be doubted that those cards added a lot of dynamism to the game. There are people here who are pining for less swingy games, less powerful effects, less "OTK" combos, and a general ratcheting back of things. I say this might be one of those situations where you better be careful what you ask for. People already blubber like babies about how "boring" the game is. I try not to imagine how much those Whiners are going to caterwaul about how bored they are after the rotation...
God, Vicious syndicate has become so biased with these opinion snippets it's like watching the creation of fox news or CNN. Can we just get the data without an agenda.

Baku and Genn have created more diversity than this game could have imagined.
it seems there are less grenn deck each week

why do people complain so much about even decks ? there are only 2 of them and only 1 is tier 1

02/21/2019 01:23 PMPosted by Geoxyx
God, Vicious syndicate has become so biased with these opinion snippets it's like watching the creation of fox news or CNN. Can we just get the data without an agenda.

Baku and Genn have created more diversity than this game could have imagined.


i noticed it too
i couldnt find any vs reports with 7- 9 tier 1 decks pre baku/grenn
Many can agree that both Geen and specially Baku will impact the game in a negative way in the year to come, be it by messing with future desing or by stealing the wind from the next 3 expansions. The real question that should be asked is does rotating them early to wild be enough? or shall the devs redesing the way they work so that they don't have a start of the game effect?. I personally don't touch wild mode so much, so I can't tell how much of a problem the cards are in that particular mode if any but wild should not be treated as the skeleton closet where we can dump all of our problems.
02/21/2019 01:24 PMPosted by Boreas
it seems there are less grenn deck each week

why do people complain so much about even decks ? there are only 2 of them and only 1 is tier 1

02/21/2019 01:23 PMPosted by Geoxyx
God, Vicious syndicate has become so biased with these opinion snippets it's like watching the creation of fox news or CNN. Can we just get the data without an agenda.

Baku and Genn have created more diversity than this game could have imagined.


i noticed it too
i couldnt find any vs reports with 7- 9 tier 1 decks pre baku/grenn


Well the problem is that baku does this by increasing the game general polarization.

I'm also think that the correct way to do this is give people reason to construct normal decks instead of nerf baku and genn.

Like....

We really want the gameplay to become so dull?
We as players should really let whiners do what they want with our game?

I'm know that it isn't common to be so combative against other comunity members but...

I'm not see this ending well and maybe blizzard should understand that overrepresentation insn't overpowered by our own voice.
02/21/2019 01:53 PMPosted by minami
02/21/2019 01:24 PMPosted by Boreas
it seems there are less grenn deck each week

why do people complain so much about even decks ? there are only 2 of them and only 1 is tier 1

...

i noticed it too
i couldnt find any vs reports with 7- 9 tier 1 decks pre baku/grenn


Well the problem is that baku does this by increasing the game general polarization.

I'm also think that the correct way to do this is give people reason to construct normal decks instead of nerf baku and genn.

Like....

We really want the gameplay to become so dull?
We as players should really let whiners do what they want with our game?

I'm know that it isn't common to be so combative against other comunity members but...

I'm not see this ending well and maybe blizzard should understand that overrepresentation insn't overpowered by our own voice.


Where’s our Hero Project card to counter them so people today wouldn’t be so fed up?

What I find odd is that a month ago the complainer crowd was filled with “we need counters” threads, but I am consistently downvoted for saying that in the case of Baku and Genn there’s a significantly lower amount of punish counters available than anything else in the game.

I think they were an interesting design direction, but Blizz should have had a plan from the release on how to deal with a meta inundated with Hero Power upgrades. I wish I would have had a chance to play in a meta this last year where I could swap with my opponent’s Hero Powers, corrupt them, remove them for the rest of the game, etc.
I dont think baku and genn should,go and i doubt majority of players think so as well. There is plenty non baku and genn decks,they are not warping the meta. They are a nice option for people to make a relativly simple deck. A sort of stepping stone towards deck building.

Its a bit annoying to see vs post these snipets i do agree with what other people said about it. They can be either an objective site with data or an opiniated medium that writes about hs but the combination of the 2 feels bad.
I like the Baku and Genn effects. I'm not playing one at the moment, but I enjoyed the odd pally and even warlock when I played them a few months ago. Perhaps a way to nerf them very softly could be to reveal them before the mulligan. Have the hero power modification be exposed and allow the opponent to mulligan against it. It's not severe, but it's something.
02/21/2019 01:23 PMPosted by Geoxyx
God, Vicious syndicate has become so biased with these opinion snippets it's like watching the creation of fox news or CNN. Can we just get the data without an agenda.

Baku and Genn have created more diversity than this game could have imagined.


Well somebody should have agenda for health of game. If it isnt going to be Blizzard....
yes just leave genn and baku in wild and forget about that let wild players be stuck with it forever.I hate this standard wild format thing because OP cards like barns and hunter spell stone is just put in a box and forgotten about that box being wild.
02/22/2019 02:37 AMPosted by Urza
02/21/2019 01:23 PMPosted by Geoxyx
God, Vicious syndicate has become so biased with these opinion snippets it's like watching the creation of fox news or CNN. Can we just get the data without an agenda.

Baku and Genn have created more diversity than this game could have imagined.


Well somebody should have agenda for health of game. If it isnt going to be Blizzard....


Design is did by destruction and not by increasing how healthy it is.

If you don't distort some fundament of the game you can't create new ways to play it.

That is also why rotation exists. It restores the "broken" part to it's original state so you can now break another one without do to much damage to the game.

Who choice wild just need to understand that this is the downside of wild itself as a format.

No one has any fault. Not even blizzard.
These forums really suck, can't tell you how many times my posts WON'T go through yet adds to my post count. So many lost posts out there ugh... and you guys think Blizzard will magically spend money balancing a game they've made billions off of as is???

02/21/2019 01:23 PMPosted by Geoxyx
God, Vicious syndicate has become so biased with these opinion snippets it's like watching the creation of fox news or CNN. Can we just get the data without an agenda.

Baku and Genn have created more diversity than this game could have imagined.


No, you can't get honest information around here without some bias attached to it to further someone/s agenda/'s. Too many people think differently to demand such a thing, it wasn't always this way with people, others would know this if they ever paid attention to history...

A lot of people refer to VS as their Bible for HS. Of course 3rd party VS reports has an agenda, they need to make that money ;). Every 3rd party has an agenda, none of them can be trusted fully due to this. To a lot of people, bias = truth. They treat the "truth" as something tangible to them that they can grab and manipulate as they see fit to further their own "agenda's".

Getting honest, unbiased information is nearly impossible in today's corporate/capitalistic/information age. The only real information one can trust 100% is their own data they've collected and of those they trust as well, question is... who to trust? ;)

Threads like these have been posted over and over again and will continue to do so as long as people have "agenda's" to further.

To get on topic of the thread: of course Genn/Baku are to blame for the current meta we have, all of the broken cards are to blame. The powercreep since release is to blame, everybody wants this and wants that. Blizzards agenda is to make the most money possible before this game eventually dies, that's the truth of it. I don't think this game will ever get balanced IMHO, this game was most balanced when released back in April 2014 iirc... ahhh those were the days.

Cheers o/
02/21/2019 01:23 PMPosted by Geoxyx
Baku and Genn have created more diversity than this game could have imagined.

diversity? the same deck prostituted among all classes with useful hero powers with just a few adjustments here and there, safe for odd warrior? yeah right

if anything the 4 hunter archetypes had more diversity than all baku ones, and hunter got nerfed for overrepresentation still

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