VS Data Report #122: Genn & Baku ... Harming the Game

Play Mode Discussion
Genn and Baku are complicated... On one hand they've improved deck diversity, on the other there's the coin differential.

For the uninformed: The coin differential simply means that going first with a Genn/Baku deck makes your odds of winning more likely. Though, Evenlock is the exception to this rule due to giants.

The reason that we have the coin differential is that Genn/Baku offer consistent gameplay. So, going first is an advantage and the coin doesn't make up for it.
02/22/2019 07:12 AMPosted by RhokDelar
02/21/2019 01:23 PMPosted by Geoxyx
Baku and Genn have created more diversity than this game could have imagined.

diversity? the same deck prostituted among all classes with useful hero powers with just a few adjustments here and there, safe for odd warrior? yeah right

if anything the 4 hunter archetypes had more diversity than all baku ones, and hunter got nerfed for overrepresentation still


And it still wrong.
Like....

What hunter and druid nerfs really did?

They only bring change to the metagame because people were bored.
Hearthstone not need nerf X or Y to be a game that retain players.

It needs blizzard to put real work and make it expand into new formats , events did to engage people instead of just give free stuff and call it a event.

Card X or Y isn't as bad to the game as the lack of content is.
02/22/2019 05:17 AMPosted by HappyFeet
OP cards like barns and hunter spell stone is just put in a box and forgotten about that box being wild.

Barnes, sure but would you like to point out the Hunter deck terrorizing Wild?
..... wait you mean to say it DOESN'T use Spellstone even when it was 5 mana. Spellstone is perfectly fine in Wild and has, honestly, never even seen serious play at 5 mana let alone the nerfed 6 mana. The pace of Wild is too fast for Spellstone to impact and Control decks have more than enough AoE clear to laugh at the puppies summoned.

02/21/2019 04:35 PMPosted by autosquelch
I like the Baku and Genn effects. I'm not playing one at the moment, but I enjoyed the odd pally and even warlock when I played them a few months ago. Perhaps a way to nerf them very softly could be to reveal them before the mulligan. Have the hero power modification be exposed and allow the opponent to mulligan against it. It's not severe, but it's something.

I don't this would change much as, to be honest, the only matchup off the top of my head this really impacts my mulligan a ton is the Warlock matchup. I do think Genn and Baku can be modified a bit by having them always be in your starting hand (cannot be mulliganed) but that might drop Baku (especially) down two tiers the more I think of it.

02/22/2019 07:19 AMPosted by Daikaze
Genn and Baku are complicated... On one hand they've improved deck diversity, on the other there's the coin differential.

As others have mentioned though they improved deck diversity by making certain archetypes almost too good at what they do and wedged the meta a bit. The #1 example of this,in Standard, is Baku Warrior which can just toss every aggro deck in the ground (it does this in Wild more or less as well but Kingsbane Aggro Rogue can overcome) and in Wild Even Shaman and Baku Rogue were VERY strong at their gameplan but each was nerfed so Baku/genn have lost some power in Wild for now.
02/22/2019 07:25 AMPosted by minami
What hunter and druid nerfs really did?

yes, the problem is that they make heavy handed nerfs to a minimal amount of wrongly aimed cards because they are nerfing around the problematic cards

but let's be honest: except for hunter and druid, most cards have been nerfed so baku and genn decks don't use them -hence why GI was dumped to 7 not 6, call to arms was murdered (although deserved), cold blood passed to better life and flametongue totem is as good as deleted; also why voone never got play since it would have fitted so well odd warrior that they had to change its cost before release

while blizz has a long historical record of wrongly done nerfs, yes, but also a record of wrongly implemented content that deserves direct handling
02/22/2019 07:41 AMPosted by RhokDelar
02/22/2019 07:25 AMPosted by minami
What hunter and druid nerfs really did?

yes, the problem is that they make heavy handed nerfs to a minimal amount of wrongly aimed cards because they are nerfing around the problematic cards

but let's be honest: except for hunter and druid, most cards have been nerfed so baku and genn decks don't use them -hence why GI was dumped to 7 not 6, call to arms was murdered (although deserved), cold blood passed to better life and flametongue totem is as good as deleted; also why voone never got play since it would have fitted so well odd warrior that they had to change its cost before release

while blizz has a long historical record of wrongly done nerfs, yes, but also a record of wrongly implemented content that deserves direct handling


The cost we as players can pay by blizzard doing it is stupid.

And...
Isn't evenlock a iteration of handlock?
Isn't baku warrior a iteration of control warrior?

Those are baku/genn decks as much as people want to believe.

This diversity is real and is created by they. Give us powerfull synergy that requires both odd and even cards so we have a reason to not play only odd or only even decks.

Maybe go at baku hero powers at individual level and understand that reuse justicar hero powers was a mistake.

Kill baku/genn is the lazy approach here.
Actually in the long term im can even see they being okay at wild so maybe we would just let baku and genn have their time at wild by HoF they if team 5 think that they gonna overshadow the new standard year.
Wild Big Priest is every other match, this must be for Standard.
Rogue is also every other match in Wild 2 Rogues prep raiding n shadowlight.
02/22/2019 08:03 AMPosted by Thorodan
Wild Big Priest is every other match, this must be for Standard.
Rogue is also every other match in Wild 2 Rogues prep raiding n shadowlight.

o.O
Sure, Rogue has been very common but Big priest has all but disappeared for me at r4/r5 right now due to the Rogues.
I actually like baku and genn, but i also agree that there should be tech cards for them to counter, not so much a nerfing of the cards
02/21/2019 01:40 PMPosted by LeMao
Many can agree that both Geen and specially Baku will impact the game in a negative way in the year to come, be it by messing with future desing or by stealing the wind from the next 3 expansions. The real question that should be asked is does rotating them early to wild be enough? or shall the devs redesing the way they work so that they don't have a start of the game effect?. I personally don't touch wild mode so much, so I can't tell how much of a problem the cards are in that particular mode if any but wild should not be treated as the skeleton closet where we can dump all of our problems.


Is it really? or do people just like to pretend it does.

"limits design space" is said so often, but there is plenty of design space left. Filling design space is part of the process too.
They need to make 60-80% of a set standard worthy to help deck diversity. Its not netdecking that is the issue. PPL will always find the best versions of decks. What we need is more good cards so there are just more best versions of decks in general.
02/22/2019 04:18 PMPosted by xlux
Is it really? or do people just like to pretend it does.

"limits design space" is said so often, but there is plenty of design space left. Filling design space is part of the process too.

Yeah just "people" like to say that, wanna hear another one saying it?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2253&v=a6N1iFiHZnY

Please time skipp to 37:20 and specially 38:20 where the lead desingner of the game actually agrees that they are desing restrictive.
02/22/2019 09:13 PMPosted by Urza
They need to make 60-80% of a set standard worthy to help deck diversity. Its not netdecking that is the issue. PPL will always find the best versions of decks. What we need is more good cards so there are just more best versions of decks in general.

Exactly.
We do not need overtuned cards.
We need fewer filler-cards, and more overall viable ones.
02/23/2019 01:32 AMPosted by RandomDrunk
We need fewer filler-cards,

this

most cards in the recent packs are fillers that aren't even desirable for arena, so they are useless and a waste of "design space" -better make sets with fewer cards then and stop trying to get rich with our pockets... oh right! this is activision
I really hope they'll actually decide to rotate Gen and Baku. I can usually deal with overpowered cards and still have fun, but G&B are choking out any variance in my games lately. 8/10 of my last opponents were running them and I find hero power centric gameplay numbingly unfun...
02/23/2019 12:02 AMPosted by LeMao
02/22/2019 04:18 PMPosted by xlux
Is it really? or do people just like to pretend it does.

"limits design space" is said so often, but there is plenty of design space left. Filling design space is part of the process too.

Yeah just "people" like to say that, wanna hear another one saying it?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2253&v=a6N1iFiHZnY

Please time skipp to 37:20 and specially 38:20 where the lead desingner of the game actually agrees that they are desing restrictive.


And until when people will agree with whatever bs a dev say?

Also not forget that those same devs said that people have fun when they play with barnes.

Sorry but people would not quote devs like this unless they really think that devs know what is best for the game.

It appear more like you're using someone to push your agenda than actually have a discussion when you quote someone that you not trust 100%.
02/23/2019 10:02 AMPosted by minami
02/23/2019 12:02 AMPosted by LeMao
...
Yeah just "people" like to say that, wanna hear another one saying it?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2253&v=a6N1iFiHZnY

Please time skipp to 37:20 and specially 38:20 where the lead desingner of the game actually agrees that they are desing restrictive.


And until when people will agree with whatever bs a dev say?

Also not forget that those same devs said that people have fun when they play with barnes.

Sorry but people would not quote devs like this unless they really think that devs know what is best for the game.

It appear more like you're using someone to push your agenda than actually have a discussion when you quote someone that you not trust 100%.
listening to this video is hard.

He thinks barnes being broken is an opinion...
And
Otk decks are inconsistent.
02/23/2019 10:02 AMPosted by minami
And until when people will agree with whatever bs a dev say?

Also not forget that those same devs said that people have fun when they play with barnes.

Sorry but people would not quote devs like this unless they really think that devs know what is best for the game.

Ohh belive me I for the most part, don't agree with the devs specially their solutions and some ways to fix problems (nerfing just mana costs istead of rebalancing effects all toguether). Many times they don't know how heavily certain cards will influence the meta. In the same quoted interview said dev aknowleges that they knew Baku was gonna push both warrior and paladin and they were fine with that, what they didn't expect was the other pletora of decks that it enabled and the power level of those decks as well as even paladin, even shaman and even warlock in the case of Genn. All of this becomes a problem when they know in advance certain power levels beacuse they have an idea of the card pool aviable more or less a year in advance and we don't.

As other examples, take the Caverns Below a card that has been nerfed twice and funny enough was object to the fastest nerf I'd seen in the history of the game (2 months affter its release), why? beacuse they didn't expect the power level it had even though from a desing perspective it is a great card, since the deck it created used cards from the bassic and classic sets that hadn't seen play in years while still being a powerfull combo deck (sounds familiar), something us rogue players like a lot, but with an enfasis on minion play and trade, something the class didn't do much before that deck. as second example I can mention Deathstalker Rexxar, a card that they secretly had coded just to work with the existing beast pool at the time of it's release, but when we players asked for it to have a refreshing pool of beasts up to date with the expansions to come they tryed to excuse themselves saying it was a coding problem and when the comunity didn't bought that they let it do what it does up to this day, wich is be a single card insurance againts control decks, and belive me the card is hella fun to play in concept and mechanically, the problem with it is the way it can single handlely win otherwise lost games.

02/23/2019 10:02 AMPosted by minami
It appear more like you're using someone to push your agenda than actually have a discussion when you quote someone that you not trust 100%.

Sorry if it apears that way to you, when what I'm trying to do is defend is my original point that both Geen and Baku are desing restrictive for the game in general, while counter arguing bias arguments that use degrading terms like "pushing agenda" and disregarding a great portion of the playerbase as just "people" in a condensending way, that just love to whine and don't know what they're talking about, by quoting someone (a dev) that sould not fall into that category given the intent of the argument, and if that is not having a discussion to you I don't know what it is.
We need more good cards yes. Pls blizz listen,this really is very importent. The game needs more good cards!

Take warlock for example,morrigan hir eek,jeklik.
Godfrey is good but the others are to bad and to limited. Why make such bad cards like hir eek. And warlock not only class,other classes also got very bad legendarys.
And then there randomly are a few legends that are way better like zuljin.
Stop making these bad legend that only can be ysed in 1 very specific archetype and sometimes not even that.

Somyes,more good cards pls because lvl if card quality this year has been disapointing.
They are fine. The players just need to get good.
02/22/2019 06:49 AMPosted by ReaprOfSouls
These forums really suck, can't tell you how many times my posts WON'T go through yet adds to my post count. So many lost posts out there ugh... and you guys think Blizzard will magically spend money balancing a game they've made billions off of as is???

02/21/2019 01:23 PMPosted by Geoxyx
God, Vicious syndicate has become so biased with these opinion snippets it's like watching the creation of fox news or CNN. Can we just get the data without an agenda.

Baku and Genn have created more diversity than this game could have imagined.


No, you can't get honest information around here without some bias attached to it to further someone/s agenda/'s. Too many people think differently to demand such a thing, it wasn't always this way with people, others would know this if they ever paid attention to history...

A lot of people refer to VS as their Bible for HS. Of course 3rd party VS reports has an agenda, they need to make that money ;). Every 3rd party has an agenda, none of them can be trusted fully due to this. To a lot of people, bias = truth. They treat the "truth" as something tangible to them that they can grab and manipulate as they see fit to further their own "agenda's".

Getting honest, unbiased information is nearly impossible in today's corporate/capitalistic/information age. The only real information one can trust 100% is their own data they've collected and of those they trust as well, question is... who to trust? ;)

Threads like these have been posted over and over again and will continue to do so as long as people have "agenda's" to further.

To get on topic of the thread: of course Genn/Baku are to blame for the current meta we have, all of the broken cards are to blame. The powercreep since release is to blame, everybody wants this and wants that. Blizzards agenda is to make the most money possible before this game eventually dies, that's the truth of it. I don't think this game will ever get balanced IMHO, this game was most balanced when released back in April 2014 iirc... ahhh those were the days.

Cheers o/


Downvotes will come for u(and for me i guess), but i 100% agree with you. There are too many people liking Baku/Genn and there are many hating them. So if Baku gets rotated out early, im quitting as well as most people i know. But the other way round, if they persist for too long, anti Baku/Genn People will possibly quit.
People joked about HS being dead but the more Blizz ads, the more this game gets outta control and unbalanced. They tried to force this unstoppable stream of new content and mechanics with every xpac but at some point it was just too much. Too much for them to handle. And now, they are trying to get as much profit as possibe out of this game before too many quit.

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