"Academic Espionage," and maybe a change? (long)

Play Mode Discussion
This card, "Academic espionage," is a rogue card that has (4) cost and shuffels 10 cards from your opponents class into your deck that all cost (1).

I will start with the counter arguments, that are exclusivly "The cards that you gat are 'random' so it could be bad." Which is true, I guess TECHNICALLY they are and you COULD get 10 of my "Level up!" cards that would do nothing for you without silverhand reruits, but that is not going to happen. You are going to get a good card in there at least. In my case, lets say your opponent gets a "The Boomship" card and summons 3 of their strongest cards from their hand onto the board for (1) mana. Or they get "Cenarius" and for 1 mana drop a 5/8 and buff every minion you have +2/+2. It just doesnt make sense.

Now that the one argument that stands for the card is out of the way, let me tell you why I believe it needs to be nerfed.

This card is incredibly strong, the ability to take 10 cards from your opponent, sometimes changing a long game that would have ended wil each deck being empty, is too strong. It perfectly counters a mill deck, if you happened to have that, or pretty much any other deck for that matter. Every time that an "Academic espionage" card can be played there is always at least one "Augmented elkk" card on the board too. So now not only do you get to draw 2 "The Boomship" cards and play them both for 1 cost next turn (after playing "sprint" of course...) but you also get to play "King Mosh," "Scourgelord Garrosh," or "Grommash Hellscream," in the same turn.
I really can not remember the last time I lost to a rogue that did not shuffle 40 of my class's cards into their deck and then played each of them (legendary cards included) for one mana each, on top of their own cards that cost what they should.
The card would sort of make sense if the cards added cost what they should? but even then, having the deck size go from the starting 30 to 70 is a little hard to fight. Eventually I WILL run out of cards, and my opponent will have a whole new deck to go through while I draw from an empty deck and die.

My real problem with this card is that it reduces the cost of added cards to 1. When new cards are made, or cards are reworked, the cost is the most important part. No one would have a "Devastate" card if it cost (3) or (4) mana to play it. The reason that certain cards work is because of their cost. The reason that the game has strategy is because of card cost. without having to weigh the options of what cards I can play from my hand this turn to synergize well over other cards, or I can play rogue and play "Academic espionage" and not think about it at all, play the combo cards I was going to play, then also throw out some free legendary cards that will not just "tip" the balance of the game but utterly destroy the scale the balance is using.

I guess I am just getting tired of watching a rogue say "I will be your death!" and then seeing my own cards kill me, making me my own death I guess.

I feel like "Academic espionage" should really either not change the cost of the added cards, or be removed entirely. As it stands, adding potentially 30 cards from the opponents class that all cost 1 is too much to handle. play 2 "Augmented elkk" cards and then play an "Academic espionage" card the same turn costing a total of 10 mana and you have instantly added a new deck that costs nothing to field, into your game. Throw in a spell combo with "Preparation," and a coin? 2 new decks in one turn. I cant think of a single thing that could counter that other than the "Skulking Geist" card and even then that is only eliminatng spells, not minions.

Any thoughts?
The data doesn’t support your claim, every deck that consistently runs this card performs very poorly compared to other, more consistent, archetypes.
02/21/2019 10:40 AMPosted by pimpanda
Any thoughts?
I say get over your unlucky loss and let the meme-card alone. So you can sometimes lose to it due to RNG and the Rogue gets some sick cards costing only one mana? So what? As long as Thief Rogue, which is the only deck that regularly runs it, is not running rampant with the highest winrates, I don't care. Which it isn't since Thief Rogue is the worst deck in the game as far as winrates are concerned. "Too strong" indeed.
I think it's fine. It has the potential to be a strong card. Potential. You are trying to make it sound like the rouge is going to get the best possible outcome every time. I've played the card enough to know it's more of a fun card that can sometimes be very powerful. You have to realize a few things.

1) It creates cards from your class, not gives them your cards

2) Has as much potential to give them garbage as it can give them something good. Yeah, it might give them some free legendaries but it can also give them stuff that they won't want to use or doesn't fit what they are doing.

3) Each one played adds ten cards to their deck diluting it. They still have to draw the cards to actually use them. The extra cards can also hurt there chances of playing their combos because you can't play them if you don't draw them.

4) Even if it gives them good cards there is no guarantee that there will be any synergy with them
You pay 4 mana and only get some value from it latter. It's very weak compared to Fal'dorei Strider for example.
While the prospect of getting 1-mana Legendaries is very real and certainly does happen, you can't simply discount the presence of bad or mediocre cards as easily as you did in your OP. While a 1-mana Tirion or Sindragosa is definitely godlike, those situations are not going to happen frequently, and the win/playrate of this deck shows it. Even if you have a series of extremely well-costed minions in your deck, your gameplan can be seriously shafted by drawing something like Moonfire or Totemic Might by contrast. You effectively waste a turn (barring other cards in hand or field) when you draw cards like this, and the tempo loss makes up for at least part of the tempo gain from getting a very under-costed minion later on.

This is also ignoring class synergies that you quite literally can't build or tech for. While cards like Dire Frenzy are fantastic in current Hunter lists and should be even better at 1 mana, you aren't guaranteed to have any Beasts out (unless you protect Elekk or draw something else) and have no way of knowing whether or not you will draw any. In the meantime, it's a dead card. Same can be said about things like Dragon's Fury, for which the "1-cost factor" of your shuffled cards is an active hindrance rather than help.

Another point that others have mentioned (and that I'd like to hit home) is that regardless of the swing-y games that this card CAN produce, those games are objectively irregular enough and unlikely enough that the deck doesn't produce results and still loses a majority of its matchups. It's clunky, slow, inconsistent, isn't polarizing, doesn't represent an overwhelming portion of the meta, and doesn't push any decks/archetypes out of the meta. There are no reasons to nerf it based on historical standards, and the numbers don't support nerfing it either.
The only way Espionage is good is if you have prep into turn 1. That way you might be able to survive against hyper aggro.

It gets progressively worse the later you draw it.
02/21/2019 10:40 AMPosted by pimpanda
Which is true, I guess TECHNICALLY they are and you COULD get 10 of my "Level up!" cards that would do nothing for you without silverhand reruits, but that is not going to happen.


I actually played a game against a Paladin and the first 5 cards I got from AE were Level Up!. The only reason they helped is that you can cast them without Silver Hand Recruits so I could maintain my spectral cutlass.

Is it great some games? yes but most games come down to the other cards in your deck and, in my case, if your opponent is running any weapons tech.

If you think AE is powerful, craft a deck and play it. Then come back and report your results.
AE would be a horrible card if it doesn't reduce the cost of the card. Remember each card draw is a resource. Drawing a useless card is a resource wasted. Would you want 10 random cards added to your deck after you finish building it? Probably only if you are building a fatigue oriented deck you would even consider that.
02/21/2019 10:54 AMPosted by NerevarAgain
The data doesn’t support your claim, every deck that consistently runs this card performs very poorly compared to other, more consistent, archetypes.


Not in wild. There are many high rank decks that are running thief rogue. And while many cards are useless cause of class synergy, you cannot argue that a 1 mana Shudderwock or Arcanite Reaper is a gimmick.

The deck is probably a T1-T2 level deck, running along side pirates, warlocks, priests, and a few other higher level competitors.

AE alone isn't a strong card, but the weapon it buffs and maintains is pretty much that deck's version of Kingsbane.
02/21/2019 10:40 AMPosted by pimpanda
This card, "Academic espionage," is a rogue card that has (4) cost and shuffels 10 cards from your opponents class into your deck that all cost (1).

I will start with the counter arguments, that are exclusivly "The cards that you gat are 'random' so it could be bad." Which is true, I guess TECHNICALLY they are and you COULD get 10 of my "Level up!" cards that would do nothing for you without silverhand reruits, but that is not going to happen. You are going to get a good card in there at least. In my case, lets say your opponent gets a "The Boomship" card and summons 3 of their strongest cards from their hand onto the board for (1) mana. Or they get "Cenarius" and for 1 mana drop a 5/8 and buff every minion you have +2/+2. It just doesnt make sense.

Now that the one argument that stands for the card is out of the way, let me tell you why I believe it needs to be nerfed.

This card is incredibly strong, the ability to take 10 cards from your opponent, sometimes changing a long game that would have ended wil each deck being empty, is too strong. It perfectly counters a mill deck, if you happened to have that, or pretty much any other deck for that matter. Every time that an "Academic espionage" card can be played there is always at least one "Augmented elkk" card on the board too. So now not only do you get to draw 2 "The Boomship" cards and play them both for 1 cost next turn (after playing "sprint" of course...) but you also get to play "King Mosh," "Scourgelord Garrosh," or "Grommash Hellscream," in the same turn.
I really can not remember the last time I lost to a rogue that did not shuffle 40 of my class's cards into their deck and then played each of them (legendary cards included) for one mana each, on top of their own cards that cost what they should.
The card would sort of make sense if the cards added cost what they should? but even then, having the deck size go from the starting 30 to 70 is a little hard to fight. Eventually I WILL run out of cards, and my opponent will have a whole new deck to go through while I draw from an empty deck and die.

My real problem with this card is that it reduces the cost of added cards to 1. When new cards are made, or cards are reworked, the cost is the most important part. No one would have a "Devastate" card if it cost (3) or (4) mana to play it. The reason that certain cards work is because of their cost. The reason that the game has strategy is because of card cost. without having to weigh the options of what cards I can play from my hand this turn to synergize well over other cards, or I can play rogue and play "Academic espionage" and not think about it at all, play the combo cards I was going to play, then also throw out some free legendary cards that will not just "tip" the balance of the game but utterly destroy the scale the balance is using.

I guess I am just getting tired of watching a rogue say "I will be your death!" and then seeing my own cards kill me, making me my own death I guess.

I feel like "Academic espionage" should really either not change the cost of the added cards, or be removed entirely. As it stands, adding potentially 30 cards from the opponents class that all cost 1 is too much to handle. play 2 "Augmented elkk" cards and then play an "Academic espionage" card the same turn costing a total of 10 mana and you have instantly added a new deck that costs nothing to field, into your game. Throw in a spell combo with "Preparation," and a coin? 2 new decks in one turn. I cant think of a single thing that could counter that other than the "Skulking Geist" card and even then that is only eliminatng spells, not minions.

Any thoughts?


Paired with a lifestealing weapon that gains durability with each card played from another class as well as Edwin, I was staring a full board of beasts, Kathrena and a 14/14 Edwin that I had no answer for.

On top of that, you're giving THEM spiders as you draw cards looking for an answer. When it high rolls, it gets crazy.

I've found it to be annoying but not OP. I don't mind burgle rogue because it's what a rogue does.
02/21/2019 10:40 AMPosted by pimpanda

The card would sort of make sense if the cards added cost what they should?
It would be laughably bad in that case.

Having a 40-card deck is worse than having a 30-card deck, in almost all circumstances. This is because you lose consistency. Even if you could create a 40-card deck, it would be a terrible idea if you were trying to be competitive. For example, MtG has no deck size limit (if you can shuffle it), and every single competitive deck in MtG is the minimum 60 cards.

This gets exacerbated when the cards are RANDOM, since they are very unlikely to synergize with the rest of your deck, or with each other.
but even then, having the deck size go from the starting 30 to 70 is a little hard to fight. Eventually I WILL run out of cards, and my opponent will have a whole new deck to go through while I draw from an empty deck and die.
A lot of cards start to look good if you come at them with the assumption that you will draw your entire deck. But that assumption is wrong most of the time. Is your deck actually trying to win? If so, the game should be functonally over before anyone reaches fatigue.

Finally, the results indicate that the deck is just bad against most or all decent decks. It's only played for fun. There is no objective metric that supports the notion of the card being overpowered.
02/21/2019 11:53 AMPosted by Gwyneth
02/21/2019 10:40 AMPosted by pimpanda
This card, "Academic espionage," is a rogue card that has (4) cost and shuffels 10 cards from your opponents class into your deck that all cost (1).

I will start with the counter arguments, that are exclusivly "The cards that you gat are 'random' so it could be bad." Which is true, I guess TECHNICALLY they are and you COULD get 10 of my "Level up!" cards that would do nothing for you without silverhand reruits, but that is not going to happen. You are going to get a good card in there at least. In my case, lets say your opponent gets a "The Boomship" card and summons 3 of their strongest cards from their hand onto the board for (1) mana. Or they get "Cenarius" and for 1 mana drop a 5/8 and buff every minion you have +2/+2. It just doesnt make sense.

Now that the one argument that stands for the card is out of the way, let me tell you why I believe it needs to be nerfed.

This card is incredibly strong, the ability to take 10 cards from your opponent, sometimes changing a long game that would have ended wil each deck being empty, is too strong. It perfectly counters a mill deck, if you happened to have that, or pretty much any other deck for that matter. Every time that an "Academic espionage" card can be played there is always at least one "Augmented elkk" card on the board too. So now not only do you get to draw 2 "The Boomship" cards and play them both for 1 cost next turn (after playing "sprint" of course...) but you also get to play "King Mosh," "Scourgelord Garrosh," or "Grommash Hellscream," in the same turn.
I really can not remember the last time I lost to a rogue that did not shuffle 40 of my class's cards into their deck and then played each of them (legendary cards included) for one mana each, on top of their own cards that cost what they should.
The card would sort of make sense if the cards added cost what they should? but even then, having the deck size go from the starting 30 to 70 is a little hard to fight. Eventually I WILL run out of cards, and my opponent will have a whole new deck to go through while I draw from an empty deck and die.

My real problem with this card is that it reduces the cost of added cards to 1. When new cards are made, or cards are reworked, the cost is the most important part. No one would have a "Devastate" card if it cost (3) or (4) mana to play it. The reason that certain cards work is because of their cost. The reason that the game has strategy is because of card cost. without having to weigh the options of what cards I can play from my hand this turn to synergize well over other cards, or I can play rogue and play "Academic espionage" and not think about it at all, play the combo cards I was going to play, then also throw out some free legendary cards that will not just "tip" the balance of the game but utterly destroy the scale the balance is using.

I guess I am just getting tired of watching a rogue say "I will be your death!" and then seeing my own cards kill me, making me my own death I guess.

I feel like "Academic espionage" should really either not change the cost of the added cards, or be removed entirely. As it stands, adding potentially 30 cards from the opponents class that all cost 1 is too much to handle. play 2 "Augmented elkk" cards and then play an "Academic espionage" card the same turn costing a total of 10 mana and you have instantly added a new deck that costs nothing to field, into your game. Throw in a spell combo with "Preparation," and a coin? 2 new decks in one turn. I cant think of a single thing that could counter that other than the "Skulking Geist" card and even then that is only eliminatng spells, not minions.

Any thoughts?


Paired with a lifestealing weapon that gains durability with each card played from another class as well as Edwin, I was staring a full board of beasts, Kathrena and a 14/14 Edwin that I had no answer for.

On top of that, you're giving THEM spiders as you draw cards looking for an answer. When it high rolls, it gets crazy.

I've found it to be annoying but not OP. I don't mind burgle rogue because it's what a rogue does.


Lol, if you think a 14/14 Edwin is back wait until everyone realizes how broken the rouge totem is when rotation comes and everyone moves away from the old crap. Playing a bad casual rouge deck I was regularly popping out 30/30 edwins without really trying.
02/21/2019 12:04 PMPosted by n25philly
02/21/2019 11:53 AMPosted by Gwyneth
...

Paired with a lifestealing weapon that gains durability with each card played from another class as well as Edwin, I was staring a full board of beasts, Kathrena and a 14/14 Edwin that I had no answer for.

On top of that, you're giving THEM spiders as you draw cards looking for an answer. When it high rolls, it gets crazy.

I've found it to be annoying but not OP. I don't mind burgle rogue because it's what a rogue does.


Lol, if you think a 14/14 Edwin is back wait until everyone realizes how broken the rouge totem is when rotation comes and everyone moves away from the old crap. Playing a bad casual rouge deck I was regularly popping out 30/30 edwins without really trying.


Shark rogue will be the next deck people complain about next expansion.
02/21/2019 11:49 AMPosted by ThinIce
you cannot argue that a 1 mana Shudderwock or Arcanite Reaper is a gimmick.

When that Arcanite Reaper would replace a (likely) 4+ attack weapon with Lifesteal and a built-in way to increase the durability, then yes it is a gimmick at best (and a wasted draw and hand space at worst). And if you play it, then play your second Spectral Cutlass after using the Reaper, Tess will nuke that second Cutlass upon being played.

Getting a weapon from Academic Espionage is generally a very bad result unless that weapon gives you lethal. A lot of what makes Burgle Rogue playable is Spectral Cutlass.
Oh please..

God forbid Rogue from having an actual archetype outside of miracle or relying on 3/4 neutral minions for that tempo deck of the rotation.

Burgle Rogue is High-Risk/High Reward - it crumbles under any consistent pressure, has limited survival tools with Cutlass (Ooze), Ziliax and Vanish and again.. whatever that EA is going to give you if you manage to draw it.

But hey, it's Rogue, let's nerf it to the ground while we have Hunters who can do everything and Priests who could turn their defense into a OTK or generally OTK by resurrecting their minions again and again.
Baku and genn are a thing and this guy is complaining about AE.... LOL!!!!
Let me put it in caps OP PLAY THE DECK YOURSELF AND SEE HOW BROKEN AND POWERFULL IT IS
these cards also buff the weapon and genn synergy, surprised more ppl don't play it
Have you forgotten that you have to play this card on turn 4 with zero tempo gain and give your opponent another turn to claim board advantage? Or play it even later when your opponent has likely already gotten deep into their gameplan while you still haven't even begun yours? Or about the possibility of never drawing any of those shuffled cards until it is too late?

The exception of course is if you played Preperation, but that is more of a testament to Prep's power.

Either way, the deck does not carry Rogue very well.

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