Mechathun = playing a single player game

Play Mode Discussion
02/12/2019 11:47 AMPosted by TheDarkArmy
Seems this forum is full of cry babies. Complaining about a strategy that requires someone to correctly play all of their deck cards.


It doesn't really require that much effort. Even the pro players have said the deck is on auto pilot. All you need to do is mostly make sure you have just enough life at the end for the bloom.
Again, you are a cry baby. Many broken decks can win by turn 6 or less, and you are complaining about a deck that can only win by turn 30 with no broken cards.

What I mean by a broken card is that it allows someone to destroy the other person using some special effect or infinite loop that occurs in 6 turns.

You make it seem like before this strategy, everyone had to play all 30 cards and whoever had the best cards wins the game.

This never happened, I remember complaining about mage's and shaman's infinite loop turns that occurred before 30 cards are played and make a turn take 10 minutes and continued even AFTER the rope started which should have limited the actual time of play.

There is always going to be a style of play or deck that beats you. If you don't like it, uninstall. You can't dictate what others like to play just because you don't like their style of play.

02/12/2019 12:14 PMPosted by First123
02/12/2019 11:47 AMPosted by TheDarkArmy
a strategy that requires someone to correctly play all of their deck cards.


Combo/otk decks actually requires less "correctly play all of their deck cards", since their finishing combo is already decided.

While another deck has to play all 30 of their cards correctly, a combo/otk deck only need to play correctly 30-n cards, with n being their finishing combo

Now some might say "well they have to play those 30-n cards MORE correctly". That's not really true either. Most combo/otk are running removals, card draw, and heals/armor/stalls. Most of these effects are instant and only last one turn.

So you basically make one decision about them: "do I play this now or later", but that's a decision that applies to basically every card in the game. But for otk/combo, they have to consider one less thing when asking that question: whether they can afford running out of steam. By its nature, otk decks don't have to worry about running out of steam. Mecha'thun even relies on you running out of cards and minions

Another consideration otk/combo decks don't have to worry so much about is "will this survive to give me value". A lot of minions in the game need to survive multiple turns to get value, and each turn a minion is alive you have to make decisions on how it would attack, or whethr you might want to buff it.

With most removals, heals, and card draw, their effect is instant or near-instant (what happens to the gnomish engineer afterwards is mostly irrelevant as the value - the card draw - is already done)
Also, the win % are not that high for this deck anyway. Yes it might piss you off when someone pulls this off to win, but I have 1 of these decks and lost 5 times in a row before I finally was able to win using the ability.

There are many ways to win before someone can play all 30 cards, especially with aggro.

If you keep seeing or losing to these types of decks, then you need to design a better deck to counter it, because you are making it seem like everyone is playing it now, which is not true, I have not seem a single one doing it this morning against me.

The most fun I had today was a Mage deck I designed especially to counter another mage or priest and I was able to beat a priest using the fine tuned abilities I put in the deck.

There is no way to have 1 deck that is going to beat everyone else but you can make a deck to counter someone you don't like.
02/12/2019 12:23 PMPosted by TheDarkArmy
Again, you are a cry baby. Many broken decks can win by turn 6 or less, and you are complaining about a deck that can only win by turn 30 with no broken cards.

What I mean by a broken card is that it allows someone to destroy the other person using some special effect or infinite loop that occurs in 6 turns.

You make it seem like before this strategy, everyone had to play all 30 cards and whoever had the best cards wins the game.

This never happened, I remember complaining about mage's and shaman's infinite loop turns that occurred before 30 cards are played and make a turn take 10 minutes and continued even AFTER the rope started which should have limited the actual time of play.

There is always going to be a style of play or deck that beats you. If you don't like it, uninstall. You can't dictate what others like to play just because you don't like their style of play.

02/12/2019 12:14 PMPosted by First123
...

Combo/otk decks actually requires less "correctly play all of their deck cards", since their finishing combo is already decided.

While another deck has to play all 30 of their cards correctly, a combo/otk deck only need to play correctly 30-n cards, with n being their finishing combo

Now some might say "well they have to play those 30-n cards MORE correctly". That's not really true either. Most combo/otk are running removals, card draw, and heals/armor/stalls. Most of these effects are instant and only last one turn.

So you basically make one decision about them: "do I play this now or later", but that's a decision that applies to basically every card in the game. But for otk/combo, they have to consider one less thing when asking that question: whether they can afford running out of steam. By its nature, otk decks don't have to worry about running out of steam. Mecha'thun even relies on you running out of cards and minions

Another consideration otk/combo decks don't have to worry so much about is "will this survive to give me value". A lot of minions in the game need to survive multiple turns to get value, and each turn a minion is alive you have to make decisions on how it would attack, or whethr you might want to buff it.

With most removals, heals, and card draw, their effect is instant or near-instant (what happens to the gnomish engineer afterwards is mostly irrelevant as the value - the card draw - is already done)


You guys ever hear that saying, 'Throw a rock into a pack of dogs, and the one that yelps is the one that's hit'?

No? Eh, maybe it's just an Arkansas thing. Or an old-guy thing.

Anyway, I always think of that when I see one of these salty responses on the forum.

The OP criticizing OTK decks was the rock being thrown. And Dark Army calling everyone who agreed with the OP a bunch of cry babies is the OTK dog yelping.

Obviously, criticism of his deck choice stings a little. Wonder why that is?

P.S. No, I do not condone throwing rocks at dogs. Don't do it. It's a d--k move.
02/11/2019 10:44 PMPosted by Pumaster
And OH MY GAWD I rushed up to rank 11 (couldn't beat 19 since I've come back, until I went net deck). Crafting a single card allowed me to go combo. I made plenty of perfectly fine decks that got annihilated by all sorts of combo trash. And even STILL, at rank 11, I'm finding positively HORRIBLE players, making all sorts of mistakes, and still their deck synergy is so strong I cannot beat them.

It would be one thing if the game had some fun with crafting decks, because playing them is stagnant and non-interactive. But you can't even experiment, save making slight modifications to the pre-built decks you mentioned.

This game went from chess to checkers.
I see this statement fairly often. I get the idea that people who say it don't really play a lot of chess.

In chess, it pays to play dynamically. If your opponent castles on the opposite side of your king, are you going to sit there and only try to defend for 30 turns, then lose, then complain that there was no way to "defend" against your opponent's brainless strategy? Or are you going to realize that this specific game situation almost always requires setting up your pieces so that they can ALSO attack when the opportunity presents itself?

Fatigue decks have very little capacity to play dynamically (though there are certainly exceptions to this). Some OTK decks also lack this, but not nearly as often. Maly Druid is incredibly dynamic, as are many builds of Inner Fire Priest.

Games between an OTK deck and any other deck that actively tries to win the game are often very dynamic and skill-intensive, on both sides. This varies depending on the specific OTK deck, but Shudderwock Shaman was skill-intensive, as was Maly/Togwaggle Druid. Freeze Mage doesn't exist anymore, but it was long recognized as having a very high skill ceiling.

Games between OTK and fatigue decks, of course, are absurdly boring. I'll grant that. Either the fatigue deck has a one-card answer to shut down the OTK, or they don't have any way to win (or they don't draw it). The gameplay is terrible, on both sides. But that is just as much the fault of the fatigue deck as of the OTK deck.

If we want to stop the above dynamic, the control tools need to get worse, so that strategies dependent on board control (after turn 6) can be viable. That naturally slows down OTK, because OTK now has to devote more slots to defense. (It also makes OTK less popular as a whole.) This should give many control decks a window where they can actually try to win. Especially if they can establish a couple threats and follow them up with, say, Zihi.

Of course, the above also requires cultivating an environment that rewards dynamic control decks that don't just intend to let their opponent draw and play as many cards as they want. Anything like Odd Warrior is simply not good gameplay.

...Finally, if you are rank 11, and can't progress, you are making mistakes. Either in deck construction or play, but almost certainly in your play. Instead of focusing on the mistakes your opponents make and insulting them to try to feel better, focus on your own play. Or try to figure out which cards aren't pulling as much weight in your metagame, and replace them.
02/12/2019 12:54 PMPosted by Streak
You guys ever hear that saying, 'Throw a rock into a pack of dogs, and the one that yelps is the one that's hit'?

No? Eh, maybe it's just an Arkansas thing. Or an old-guy thing.

Anyway, I always think of that when I see one of these salty responses on the forum.

The OP criticizing OTK decks was the rock being thrown. And Dark Army calling everyone who agreed with the OP a bunch of cry babies is the OTK dog yelping.

Obviously, criticism of his deck choice stings a little. Wonder why that is?


Funny thing is, I wasn't even agreeing with the OP or complaining about OTKs, but he somehow quoted my post and railed on about crybabies. If he bothered to read my other post before that, I was pointing out that there actually are counter plays to OTK/combos, just that they're niche tech cards normally not run and normally kinda useless against anything else.

In other words, I wasn't even throwing rocks at any dogs, to put in your analogy. It's more like he's inventing something to be outraged about (or should I say... he's being a crybaby ;p)
02/12/2019 12:54 PMPosted by Streak
02/12/2019 12:23 PMPosted by TheDarkArmy
Again, you are a cry baby. Many broken decks can win by turn 6 or less, and you are complaining about a deck that can only win by turn 30 with no broken cards.

What I mean by a broken card is that it allows someone to destroy the other person using some special effect or infinite loop that occurs in 6 turns.

You make it seem like before this strategy, everyone had to play all 30 cards and whoever had the best cards wins the game.

This never happened, I remember complaining about mage's and shaman's infinite loop turns that occurred before 30 cards are played and make a turn take 10 minutes and continued even AFTER the rope started which should have limited the actual time of play.

There is always going to be a style of play or deck that beats you. If you don't like it, uninstall. You can't dictate what others like to play just because you don't like their style of play.

...


You guys ever hear that saying, 'Throw a rock into a pack of dogs, and the one that yelps is the one that's hit'?

No? Eh, maybe it's just an Arkansas thing. Or an old-guy thing.

Anyway, I always think of that when I see one of these salty responses on the forum.

The OP criticizing OTK decks was the rock being thrown. And Dark Army calling everyone who agreed with the OP a bunch of cry babies is the OTK dog yelping.

Obviously, criticism of his deck choice stings a little. Wonder why that is?

P.S. No, I do not condone throwing rocks at dogs. Don't do it. It's a d--k move.


Or the no-proactive-win-condition dog got hit by a OTK rock, and this thread is the yelping.
02/12/2019 12:28 PMPosted by TheDarkArmy
Also, the win % are not that high for this deck anyway. Yes it might piss you off when someone pulls this off to win, but I have 1 of these decks and lost 5 times in a row before I finally was able to win using the ability.

There are many ways to win before someone can play all 30 cards, especially with aggro.

If you keep seeing or losing to these types of decks, then you need to design a better deck to counter it, because you are making it seem like everyone is playing it now, which is not true, I have not seem a single one doing it this morning against me.

The most fun I had today was a Mage deck I designed especially to counter another mage or priest and I was able to beat a priest using the fine tuned abilities I put in the deck.

There is no way to have 1 deck that is going to beat everyone else but you can make a deck to counter someone you don't like.


Win rates on Ladder are for the most part only barely useful for gauging how good a deck is. You can never tell what class you will get paired against and you will not know what their deck does or what it contains. There are to many random factors extra that go into it that win rates. Most of that information is known at the competitive level. Tournament play is where you can see exactly how well a deck performs because most of the random variables are removed. In tournament play the OTK decks have proven they are top tier.
It sux, and it isn't always easy but you can defeat Mecathun decks. I have defeated them.. I have defeated warlocks using seals, and paladins using horsemen. they all suck coz they can wipe us out with one final card, if all conditions, or combos are met.. defeating them is difficult, but not impossible..

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