Discussion on Health Sustain

General Discussion
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Not sure if its been mentioned yet but has anyone thought about being able to steal the enemy teams globe in lane? Maybe instead of it just timing out it switches to the purple free for all globes for a very short period before disappearing?

This would certainly make it very important to get your globe and really reward winning the lane.
Welcome!

So let's get on the question.Half the playerbase calls for how part of the roster is underwelming, yet you go on HP regen topic?

People wan't Kerrigan, Tyrael, Leoric, Hammer to be viable picks yet we are going into topic where you even tought to remove passive regen?Can I ask do you wan't nobody to play warrior, baecause that's how you get nobody to play warrior.You are concerned about Tyrande owl and Abathur mine dmg not viable, really?A owl build hits hard enough and considering mines are ability that dosen't cost mana is fine trade.If you think aba mines are underweling is because you shouldent nerf the slow in the first place.Really supreised how 1 day whine about them on Twitter lead to that, yet problems that are called out for months even years now, are ignored.
So how about getting back on the real topic.Can people get their favorite heroes viable again?Or do you think that Falstad mage build is now not viable enough and need some tuneing?
06/13/2016 03:40 PMPosted by BlizzCooper
• Regeneration Globes:


with regard to your statement about making them a more meaningful part of the regen process, how about make it so that you can actually pick up enemy health globes, as a denial tactic, but instead of offering regen they deal damage instead, so it is a calculated risk to deny the enemy team their globe but at the same time you have to take a small amount of damage to fulfil this.

06/13/2016 03:40 PMPosted by BlizzCooper
• Healing Fountains:


if you plan on making this particular effect more meaningful, then several things would need to happen from your end, first off they would need to be significantly harder to destroy than they are right now, furthermore they need to also work like malfurion's healing, where there is an burst of instant healing, followed by a heal over time effect, the mana portion of this regen can remain as is, but the health portion needs to be changed imho.

06/13/2016 03:40 PMPosted by BlizzCooper
• Passive Health Regeneration:


with regard to your comments around this topic, my thoughts were "why bother, this is just a bad idea end of story", then i thought about it and came to an interesting conclusion how about giving tanks, (and i mean proper tanks here not bruiser although they will have some passive regen, nowhere near a proper tank), the highest health regen in game and removing it or making it so low on squishy heroes that they need to receive heals from a support or use a well or hearthstone back to heal up and can't rely on the passive regen.
Straight up buffing regen orbs seems a bit anti-fun, I think. Making them absolutely more impactful makes them a bit too win-more or stalematey without really changing the status quo (and it's a pretty big buff to poke heroes). I think there are a lot of other changes that would make laning more dynamic. I have a couple of ideas that, maybe they aren't great or perfect, but hopefully inspire something.

If regen globes became mana dominant, it would essentially provide more ammo to tear eachother down without also building back up. Like...dodgeball (except the balls in the middle respawn...and you have more than 1 HP). Ammo can be wasted in a way than missing health can't and could encourage more skirmishing. Cons: Also buffs strong poke and healers in lane.

They could scale up or down depending on the number of times the globe splits. For example, if globes are more powerful with more heroes receiving the buff, it would empower those who seek to win a lane with sheer numbers as well as roaming gankers. It would also reinforce togetherness with objectives and camps. Alternatively, if it scales down, it could reward outplay potential if you can use that advantage to win against a numbers disadvantage. It could also represent an additional difficulty of amassing your forces in one location. Aside from weakening on other fronts, it becomes logistically harder to sustain. I'm not sure if overwhelming a lane with numbers is currently a weak or strong strategy, so I think either could potentially have merits. And even if they weren't always more impactful than they are now, I think they would be on players' minds more if one of these happened.

And if you really really insist that we need lane dominance to lead to further lane dominance, you could make them carryable. It would be a powerful win-more, since a dominant lane is less likely to have sustained as much damage anyway. So being able to save them for later and stack like 2-3 of them would make them a more long term advantage.

You could make it heal and restore mana balanced to missing%. Tanks who can bodyblock without using much mana or mana-intensive pokers would have stronger lane presence here.

Not totally sure on the fountain front.

I really do like passive regen. I think it can afford to be toned down, but I don't think passive regen is usually the reason why burst is preferable. Attrition is an important tool and I do think it could stand to be stronger. But the problem there is not rooted in any one aspect. But by all means, make it so that only some tanks and a few exceptions have really high passive regen that nullifies out-of-teamfight poke. I don't believe any single mechanic in the game belongs to only one class, but I would believe it if told that too many heroes have much too high sustain right now.

Aaaand I know you didn't want to hear about supports, but just wanted to quickly comment I totally believe supports can be more dynamic and diverse and not just heal without making the game worse.
All I can think about is solo queue. I don't really care what happens on competitive e-sports level or team league, I only care about solo quickmatch, hero league and now solo unranked draft mode. A lot of these changes sound very unhealthy as the higher sustain makes solo experience better, because it means good players who are keen on the power of sustain are able to take advantage of it and move up in MMR and ranks past players who don't. It's another tool that defines skill in this game.

And then there's solo quickmatch, where supports/warriors are very rare, and when you do get a warrior it's often without supports so they feel very weak. It would only be even weaker with sustain being nerfed, and make the game extremely less fun. Especially because of things like Abathur mines, it already feels so bad dealing with them in solo quickmatch and no supports. I think if you're going to nerf sustain, then you need to address the "quirkiness" of quick match and stop making it a feature, and instead give proper team comps of warrior, HEALER (not support), and ranged assassin guaranteed on both teams even if it means longer queues.

Sustain has always been one of my favorite things in games, especially life regeneration. I often made it a point to gear for life regeneration in D2 and D3, as well as other online multiplayer games I've played like League of Legends. Garen was my favorite hero, and Muradin in this game often comes up to me too because of that passive. I also enjoy Johanna for her Laws of Hope for that very reason too, and Diablo for his talent options of sustain. I like the idea of being able to skirmish more regularly and have more action as sustain being higher which means you can fight more. You can take a hit and let mistakes be erased over time, which means it's less punishing for mistakes which subsequently means it's okay to engage more often and have more fun action. Again, this is a solo queue mindset and isn't necessarily what happens in team environments and I'm okay with that. I don't care about the team environments.
TLDR Summary:

Regeneration globes are fine, but are a likely candidate for buffing if other healing is reduced.

Optimal healing fountain use won't change if timers are increased- it'll just lessen available healing for players.

Removing passive regeneration isn't the end of the world- it just makes melee heroes and the ability to hard engage significantly worse (because they'll be half dead before they get to hit something). Expect to see Morales and Malfurion surge in popularity, as they heal poke compositions the best.

Covering things topic by topic.

1. Regeneration Globes:

These are nice, but oftentimes, they're not worth getting unless you have a specific talent that encourages farming them. They're only relevant in lane, when a hero is solo, to recover minimal poke damage taken while clearing a minion wave. They also spawn after completion of mercenary camps in the jungle, but these are often uncontested spawns (because the other team can't safely respond, or they're located securely on your side of the map).

If you want an example of when regeneration globes are of significant importance, check out Lost Cavern- it's the games where there are no other viable sources of healing that it becomes an exclusive resource the team needs to take advantage of.

Believe it or not, globes are currently balanced. We have such an accessibility to healing that they're not required, they're a simple bonus objective in most circumstances. If Blizzard decides to negatively change the output of other healing factors, they need to buff the return and make globes a better source of reliable healing.

2. Healing Foutains

Once again, these are a balanced healing mechanic. Relevant early game fountains can be killed early in a game. Fountain use is best utilized for objective fights, or when your team can't rotate down to cover a lane while a player returns to the hall of storms for healing and/or mana.

Fountain use is indicative of player skill. Existing design has fountains shaped up to have an already impactful timer- one tap prevents usage again for the next 3.5 minion waves, which is significant against a lane bully like Zagara.

It's also important to take note that fountains don't restore health and mana immediately- there's a short period where the timer should hang back, away from combat and the likelihood of death. Getting beaten back and tapping isn't going to save you if you decide to promptly re-engage.

3. Passive Health Regeneration

Removal of passive health regeneration can only be made viable with several mitigating factors: increase in globe sustain, reduced support cooldowns/increased support output, reduction in overall hero burst damage.

This runs the risk of turning the meta too friendly to already powerful ranged poke heroes. The ability to deal damage to a hero from afar is a strong utility- some heroes, like Greymane, rely on poke damage to hard engage an enemy unit. If that damage is made "permanent", it may force some heroes to retreat before an actual commitment to team fight is made.
Like I mentioned earlier and others have suggested, before you look at this topic you need to decided what role a healer and a tank should fill in this game.

I'm all for healers being rebuilt from the ground up, new abilities, new talents. I feel like supports should all sit in between what you have done with Medivh and how the rest of the typical heal bots play, but more towards the utility side. How about talents where you can reposition a teammate or rewind your teams CD's? Lets have no healing heroics but mass CC or have 50% of all damage dealt by your team transferred into healing for x seconds? Just more utility and less raw heal numbers.

I think tanks should be massive HP pools with CC, engage and escape abilities. They should do more or less zero damage but be able to soak up anything. A tank isn't a tank unless they have a reliable engage or disengage ability, I feel these are a requirement.

Once you decide where you want to go with these roles, I think it's easy to decide how to tune the rest of the game around it. Especially regarding environmental heals, self sustain, regen and what to do about burst damage.

Chris.
in my opinion, health sustain is the most potent ability in moba besides long range or free damage.

throughout the game you are looking to get value, and do so safely. to do this you need to be "active," doing damage to something which will result in xp, vision, and map presence for your team.

good players will be seeking to deny your ability to get value while trying to do so themselves, this leads to good players "trading" with each other. the person who has more health sustain can afford to be riskier in their trades, they can even "lose" trades over and over and still end up doing more net damage to their opponent over time because of their sustain, and ultimately get more value.

i think sustain is an integral part of the game, it makes it more fun and leads to different playstyles, but it is unhealthy on certain heros that do lots and lots of damage, for example zeratul.

i think greymane is a properly designed glass cannon melee, unable to sustain but capable of huge bursts. zeratul has similar damage output but has the sustain advantage of regen master, winning trades against zeratul becomes less meaningful because he can stay in strong positions with his stealth and will restore his hp pool for free in a short time.

the incredible sustain is also something that makes muradin an exceptionally strong pick. having your support save mana and not have to hearth before the first objective teamfight is a large advantage, it usually results in your team reaching the objective first, a slight xp and map presence lead, and can lead to 5:4 and 5:3 situations in ladder games, which is how most of HOTS is played.
No input for now other than good job using the community to help with game design and a suggestion to use reddit instead of these forums because these forums suck.
I would like to see the enemy globes move from being the harder to see color they are to a bright red heart.
I like most of your guys ideas of tuning these up some. I think that buffing the Regen globes is a much needed change. In there current state the regen globes are just a very small amount. I think taking them from 6.2% to 12% for health & 8% mana would be a really good change and would make them a lot more meaningful.

With the Healing fountains I think the cooldown at it current duration is good at 90 sec. I feel that the mana increase of 20% to 30% is definitely needed. I guess 120 sec could work but the health fountains can be taken out so easily.

I liked the idea behind of the change where you took 25% health of the healing fountain and made it into a shield that can regen. It does help with people trying to pick off the healing fountains.

I think a better change would reverting the Healing fountains back to 100% health and then giving them a 25% shield in addition to the full 100% health value. I think that would be a much better change, especially if you are going to increase the cooldown of the Healing fountain to 120sec.

Lastly I will just say be careful of modifying the Passive healing for Heroes. This one is going to be tough to change. I get why you would want to do this & what your trying to do, but there is alot to have to think about because the impact of this change would be substantial.
I think different types/sizes of regen globes would be cool. For example

Small health 3% of max health and 1% max mana
Medium health 6% of max health and 3% max mana
Large health 12% of max health and 6% max mana
Small mana 3% of max mana and 1% max health
Medium mana 6% of max mana and 3% max health
Large mana 12% of max mana and 6% max health

How they disperse could be random or set to a pattern.

Another option could be the more minions a hero kills in the wave the larger the globe. This would mean that globes that drop in front of towers are smaller than waves that were actively contested by heroes. This might require a change to when a globe drops. Maybe need to be after the entire wave was cleared or randomize which minion drops it.

You could also keep the globes the same and make it so some waves drop 2 or even 3 globes etc.

_____________________________________

Another cool option might be to store globes. If I'm at 90% health I can store one to use at a later time or maybe share with a more squishy hero. Let them stack up to 5 and maybe allow support to stack up to 10. (to share/support their team more) If stored it only heals one hero (you or the person you shared it with) instead of everyone nearby.
This is great, happy to see developer presence in the forums!

I think the rationale for much of these changes is clear, seeing as the game's meta has drastically shifted towards burst and CC locking. It would do well to have changes making sustained damage more relevant again, and maybe we can finally get back to playing KT or li-ming in HL again (100% instaban in HL games).

I think that sustain and passive regeneration is conceptually fine, with passive regeneration being somewhat negligible in general, and sustain being a situational talent pick that comes at the expense of another talent. However, I do like the idea to scale them down in % so that poke and sustain damage have more of an impact. To balance, health pools should probably be increased across the board by around 20-30% (scale with decrease in sustain), and maybe even more for tanks who currently can be nuked down in 2-3s of hard cc by a competent team with 2+ assassins. Healing as it is now might actually fit into this scheme quite well, making healing more effective than self sustain, but certainly not the only option.

The changes to globes and fountains also seem interesting, but I think you should consider possible repercussions resulting from that change. Currently specialists and mages with very strong wave-clear (KT, Li-ming, Jaina) are somewhat limited in their ability to push due to the need to manage mana. If you significantly increase that, their push potential (particularly in early game) might increase to the point where having one or two of these against a team with none (i'm looking at you qm mm) will inevitably lead to an early level advantage, and a crushing (and all too common) snowball.
I think it could become a fun experimental feature in custom games. Id love to be able to play some "custom stats" custom games during a LAN party! Just to be able to for example: turn off passive hp reg, double dmg, total war (double minion spawns) and just some other fun features in custom lobbys. I wish blizz would send some love to the "custom" games, because tbh its not a very "custom" gamemode atm since there is only the ability to choose map + teams.

Love, ezone
I'm still fairly new to the game, but here's my feedback all the same.

Regen Globes
I like the proposed change to increase the value. Right now they feel largely meaningless. Sure they add up, and there are some quests for them, but the healing feels very...meh, and going for them is often a risk without a reward, and denial is not that big of a deal. Or at least it seems that way. I like them restoring a bit more health and mana so they become a more significant objective if the ebb and flow of a lane. The numbers proposed seem good to me. I'm not big on the timeout reduction, and the range for friendlies seems a bit too short.

I liked the idea another poster had of showing the range on the globes when you pick them up. That would reinforce to players the range at which friendlies get the benefit and maybe wait a second or two before picking up so others can get the benefit. The range indicator helps them know exactly when to grab. This could be as simple as a green circle showing the range of the globe benefits when you touch the globe.

Fountains
I dont' think much is needed with fountains. They seem pretty good as-is, but I like the idea of increasing the mana provided. Increasing the cooldown makes sense if also increasing the value of the regen globes. Your sustain then moves from the fountain to the regen globe and puts greater value on those mini-objectives. So I'm OK with that change to ~120 seconds and more mana restored, so long as the globes also get buffed.

Passive Regen
I'm a bit torn on this. For tanks, this is vital, and often seems like it isn't enough for a tank. For assassins, it's one of those things that helps decide which hero to take. It's part of the pros and cons. Like Greymane & Jaina, who have no sustain, while Illidan has great sustain and Kael can talent into getting some sustain w both mana and health.

As-is the regen doesn't seem like it does a whole lot unless the hero has talents to improve it. When an auto attack early game will do 150 damage and a player has 5hp/s regen, you're looking at 30 seconds to undo a single attack. That's a really long time. It's only when you get things like +100%-300% regen talents that it starts to be noticeable, and even then it's only noticeable when doing light skirmishing. It's meaningless in a team fight when you get bursted down in a few seconds.

I also think mana management and regen is typically more of an issue than health. Most folks can fight as long as they have mana, but the moment that's gone, they become a glorified minion and they have to hearth out. Resource management should be an important skill, but not necessarily to the point where you do very little abilities because you have to conserve for the team fight. Auto attacking in a lane all the time because I have a hero that has mana issues is boring (thanks for the Tyrael mana reductions btw). This is a big reason why I think heroes like Illidan and Sonya are so great - they don't have mana, and they also have sources of health restore. They can just keep going with the occasional fountain tap for health. And they're constantly using abilities, which is fun, unlike a mana-starved hero. Doesn't feel like good balance when you have that, and it doesn't feel fun to play a mana starved hero.

Also, another poster commented about how more sustain may actually be better for the game. I think that's worth trying out. When you have one extreme - no sustain, all damage is permanent, and cc moves and burst is painful because, well, it's permanent. Get hit by a stun and get chunked and you may have to zone out completely. If you go to the other extreme and have more sustain, then its more forgiving. It might be the answer to the cc/burst problem is not less sustain, but more sustain.

Pro matches seem to favor double support a lot as a counter to burst and to win the war of attrition in skirmishes. We might have more interesting and fun matches if the healing power of supports was toned down, support utility turned up, and most heroes had more sustain in general. More fun for the supports, more action for everyone, less punishing CC/burst. And maybe we'll see a bit more hero variety.

Also, with more sustain there's less pressure on supports to be heal bots, which means supports can be more involved and have the heals more for clutch moments rather than their primary function. Support's non-healing functions could be buffed (and the heals possibly nerfed) if there is more sustain across the board.

Conversely, nerfing sustain means more pressure on healers to undo the damage, and more pressure to be heal-bots. And the more they're heal bots the less other support-things they do. And the less fun (and more necessary) it is to play support.

In any case, please make the regen globe and fountain changes and lets see how it goes.
So I personally think that fountains are fine where they are (small mana buff may be nice, but CD and hp healed are fine imo), supports heal entirely too much, tanks aren't tanky enough and distort the meta in unhealthy ways. I agree with the community that the solution is to lower burst damage and burst healing while increasing sustain mechanics for non-supports (like increasing regen-master's hp regen bonus on tanks).

One other thing worth thinking about is that if you do decide to change regen orbs, consider making green orbs (aka orbs spawned from lane minions and merc camps) heal a different amount then the pink orbs that come out of major objectives like garden terror and alters. This will help with some of the potential snowball issues mentioned earlier in the thread (also turn the orbs produced by immortal victory and punisher spawn pink).
I've come from league of legends and usually when these changes roll around its an overall unpleasant experience. That being said damage does often seem highly mitigated by the presence of healing unless dealt in rapid succession.

Not being able to force someone out of lane isn't necessarily a bad thing. Zagara can do this yes but it's an aggravating experience where as if you're going toe to toe with two other laners or in the worst case, pushed behind your gate by their wave clear, you can still do something about it. When you get pushed out of lane you have to spend time going back to your spawn to heal up, since you'll be out of a fountain if you're losing that badly. It's more enjoyable for both parties if players aren't forced out of lane, and they can interact instead of one side being forced to surrender their towers/fort or die.

Games would be decided more by the fights and objectives than by the hero they're laning against. This is a major factor in the outcome of league of legends games and it is not a fun experience.
Interesting topic but i don't know whether I will like the outcome or not. Almost every hero has to undergo changes to be balanced and of course there will be a change in balance between ranged and melee heroes in lane.

To be honest the most boring thing in hots is to walk back to lane from your own base....

What is the new style of gameplay - pick a nova to permanently poke you so you need to constantly back? No fun for me?
What is the new tank role? Even needed? Nearly every tank heavily relies on self sustain.
The supports are already important in hots. I guess this will even make them more important...
One of the most beautiful things about HotS is the shorter games. By removing sustain, we will have to spend more time spent doing things that are less fun, such as going back to the Hall of Storms, and there is less time spent playing the game.

The biggest reasons I love to play HotS is that I don't spend time grinding for gear (WoW, D3) hanging out in my garrison (WoW) and we just get to play the game itself.

If I'm dead because there is no regen, or I have to go back to heal at the Hall of Storms it will increase game times, and decrease the overall fun of the game.

I think the current state of the game is fine, maybe some small tweaks could be useful, but like the saying goes, if it isn't broke, don't fix it.

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