Assassins Have the Most Impact

General Discussion
06/21/2016 09:16 AMPosted by Maiwa
Wizz mains warrior.


Is that why his dominant role is Assassin with 42% and when he plays Warrior it is most often Sonya? Even if that were the case, he would be one player out of the 200 on that list.
06/21/2016 08:07 AMPosted by LyraSona
They read replay files just like the uploader app from logs (which I know you detest but fortunately detesting something doesn't make it ban worthy).


3rd party programs that "help" your game (i.e. seeing so-called MMRs and making decisions based on that) are banned. Blizzard will NEVER give you such approvals. You are cheating.


Uh, if you are so inclined, you can just go to hotslogs and search everyone's name during loading screen. So an app that does just that for you, is not cheating. The ones he speaks of read the same data as hotslogs and simply provide it in a neat and tidy tab. It doesn't "hack" the game, or "exploit" any code. It's all freely available and not against ToS.

If those were bannable, then looking at hotslogs would be bannable as well; seeing as they are the exact same thing, one is just quicker.
06/21/2016 08:07 AMPosted by LyraSona
...

3rd party programs that "help" your game (i.e. seeing so-called MMRs and making decisions based on that) are banned. Blizzard will NEVER give you such approvals. You are cheating.


Uh, if you are so inclined, you can just go to hotslogs and search everyone's name during loading screen. So an app that does just that for you, is not cheating. The ones he speaks of read the same data as hotslogs and simply provide it in a neat and tidy tab. It doesn't "hack" the game, or "exploit" any code. It's all freely available and not against ToS.

If those were bannable, then looking at hotslogs would be bannable as well; seeing as they are the exact same thing, one is just quicker.


I agree that it sounds really unlikely that anyone would get banned over this (though it's probably still a violation of the TOS, as that thing is impossibly broad)

But your analogy makes no sense. If using a blink-stalker blink bot would be punishable, then blinking your stalkers manually would be punishable as well, as it's the exact same thing, only faster.
06/21/2016 08:07 AMPosted by LyraSona
They read replay files just like the uploader app from logs (which I know you detest but fortunately detesting something doesn't make it ban worthy).


3rd party programs that "help" your game (i.e. seeing so-called MMRs and making decisions based on that) are banned. Blizzard will NEVER give you such approvals. You are cheating.


what's your gearscore?
I think its a case of mistaken statistics.

typical: 1 sup, 1 warrior, 3 dps.
pretty standard: 1 sup, 2 war, 2 dps.
seen often: 2 sup, 1 war, 2 dps.

Notice a trend? The commonality of assassins means there are going to be many many more of them in games.

hero league:
33 assassins in the top 50
15 warriors.

Hmm. Odd. Looking at the above, with the dps outweighing warriors 3 to 1, or 2 to 1 in a lot of the cases these numbers are actually incredibly accurate.

So to summarize: there are more assassins in the top ranking because there are more assassins in the 5 man comps than warriors.

Not to mention the majority of the assassin mains have warrior as their second most common pick.

Strange.
06/21/2016 07:59 AMPosted by Facequad
Nah the Tank has the most impact, when you have a good one YOU KNOW, When you have a bad one YOU KNOW.


Tanks need a good team to be effective. In lower ranks whenever I tank, ppl don't follow up on damaga or engage fights on their own. I started to refuse playing warriors lately even if I was the last to pick. It's an unrewarding role if your team can't play. As assassin you can at least do some damage on your own.
06/21/2016 07:51 AMPosted by Animus
If you want to be impactful in your games and you want to climb, play Assassins, or at the very least, the damage dealing oriented Warriors and Specialists.
I don't disagree here, but I will say that at middling levels the Warrior role becomes more important than elsewhere. This is because (most) people in Plat and lower have poor positioning, and the game tends to be more about who gets punished for being out of place. Having a stronger player who can recognize someone out of position and react in time to save them can be a big help.

In Diamond+ though, I agree that Assassins and high damage/playmaker Heroes hold the majority of the impact. They know not to face-check, they don't burn their Ults for no reason, and rotate in a way that facilitates ganks. For a great example, look at game 5 of Tempest v MVP Black. Their Greymane carried that game on his shoulders. Fantastic Support allowed him to do it, but it was still a carry.
06/21/2016 09:42 AMPosted by LordShoe
So to summarize: there are more assassins in the top ranking because there are more assassins in the 5 man comps than warriors.


There are 31 players in the top 200 that main Warriors. There are 34 players in the top 200 that main Supports. I think everyone can agree (other than the loonies) that Supports have the lowest impact and yet they are right there with Warriors. They also show up in the same relative numbers per game, typically 1, sometimes 2.

It is no surprise there are more Assassin mains up there just based on team comp, that is true. However, only 15.5% play Warriors as mains. 17% main Supports. The remaining 67.5% play damage dealers. Then you have to consider some of those players have a tendency to pick Sonya, Diablo, and Artanis, who are traditionally not tanks and have solid damage and ganking abilities, aligning them more closely with damage dealers than tanks.
I would argue the case that in bronze having a specialist like sylvanas, zagara or xul can win you a lot of games. Both these heroes have great push but also do assasin like damage.
06/21/2016 10:18 AMPosted by jawsofwar
I would argue the case that in bronze having a specialist like sylvanas, zagara or xul can win you a lot of games. Both these heroes have great push but also do assasin like damage.


Specialist are great at the lowest ranks, but the big thing about this is IF YOU ARE BETTER than your competition.

A player playing a specialist in a bracket he is far better than, will have damage comparable to Assasins in the game. The big thing specialist allow is for you to push advantages.

one thing I notice in high MMR games vs low ones is players push advantages and know when to leave. In low MMR games we can take out 3 players and sit around. Playing a specialist lets you push your advantage even with less than 4. Zag and xul can put pressure on lanes solo.

In high MMR games the team will push together or rotate and let the specialist take top fort while they grab mid, so Assasins are usually a bit more useful since the specialist role can get redundant.

Also above plat, specialist begin to rarely out damage Assasins outside of specific circumstances.
06/21/2016 10:29 AMPosted by Skeems
one thing I notice in high MMR games vs low ones is players push advantages and know when to leave.
The knowing when to leave is the key part. Soaking a lane to get an XP advantage is great. Dying and giving them the XP to close that gap, not so much.
06/21/2016 08:13 AMPosted by LyraSona
06/21/2016 08:09 AMPosted by Facequad
...

Have you seriously ever played a blizzard game?


something being okay in WoW =/= being okay in HotS


Hate to break it to you but if it's not attempting to modify game files, packets or generally doing something bad , blizz actually tends to encourage using things like this . Getting a guesstimate of someone's hotslogs mmr displayed on your loading screen is neither accurate nor an advantage and is so simple to use that anyone can do it, if blizz didn't want it there they would fix the coding on replays so you couldn't do it, kappa ?
I don't agree. Bad warriors can make you lose the game. Sometime they are overextending or they don't protect teamates. So if you're a good warrior you can change the game a lot, more than some assassins who never focus the right target.

Good supports are importants too. We just tend to forget about them since they are alway in the back and in the shadow.
06/21/2016 11:19 AMPosted by Draco
So if you're a good warrior you can change the game a lot, more than some assassins who never focus the right target.


If you're focusing the wrong target as an Assassin, you're not going anywhere fast. This is a conversation about people looking to influence their MMR to the greatest degree and climb ranks. You do that by playing well, so what you're talking about is moot.

It doesn't matter if you disagree because we have the numbers to prove it now, not to mention logically it makes the most sense. Tanks require follow up. Assassins do better with it, but can make plays happen without it.
It's too bad it ends up that way since my two most played types are warriors and specialists, and not the more assassin type specs either.

I'm one of the oddballs that find DPSing boring, but it sounds like if I look at wanting to play again I need to got either assassins, Sonya or Sylvanas/Xul.

Kind of a shame, but is it pretty much that way for all MOBAs?
06/21/2016 11:45 AMPosted by Starbreaker
It's too bad it ends up that way since my two most played types are warriors and specialists, and not the more assassin type specs either.

I'm one of the oddballs that find DPSing boring, but it sounds like if I look at wanting to play again I need to got either assassins, Sonya or Sylvanas/Xul.

Kind of a shame, but is it pretty much that way for all MOBAs?


Once you are at a rank that portrays your skill, you probabaly won't see a big enough impact playing Assasin vs your preferences. Your other teammates playing Assasins will be just as good as you if you played them.

This is for moving up in rank. Grand masters are better than the genral population so they are always pushing their ranks.

Animus is referring to play making ability. Basically it's your ability to showcase superior skill regardless of allies or opponents. Assasins do this best but some other heroes can also.

This does not say that you can't move up with other roles. For best results Assasins are the way to bump up ranks unless you have particularly weak Assasin play(a bucket I think I fit in)
06/21/2016 11:30 AMPosted by Animus
If you're focusing the wrong target as an Assassin, you're not going anywhere fast
Obvious. Was pointing out that others classes are impactful too.

06/21/2016 11:30 AMPosted by Animus
This is a conversation about people looking to influence their MMR to the greatest degree and climb ranks.
And so is my conversation

06/21/2016 11:30 AMPosted by Animus
It doesn't matter if you disagree
Yes it matter. Otherwise no point in talking.

06/21/2016 11:30 AMPosted by Animus
we have the numbers to prove it now
Your numbers are not credible

06/21/2016 11:30 AMPosted by Animus
Tanks require follow up


And assassins need warriors to tank for them. And supports to keep them alive.
06/21/2016 12:17 PMPosted by Draco
And assassins need warriors to tank for them. And supports to keep them alive.


You're missing the point. A Tank sitting in a bush who knows an enemy is rotating and will pass that bush alone cannot kill that enemy before it either A) gets help or B) runs away or C) forces the tank to run away.

If you revise this scenario and put a KT in that bush he either A) lands his skillshots and blows the target up by himself or B) misses the skillshots and probably dies.

So, if we can rule out B because we are assuming you are skilled enough to warrant picking a high kill potential hero, you are more impactful than any tank can hope to be. This is obviously just one scenario.

Let's say we're talking about a teamfight. The tank might set the play up, but what does he do when his team doesn't react? He dies.

Ok, now let's say the tank peels for his KT preventing him from dying. Pretty high impact, right? Wrong, because the KT can now stand there doing nothing and the peel was worthless. Ask yourself why you peel. To save higher value targets than yourself, right? Right.

Now let's look at a scenario where everyone is doing everything right. Who matters the most? Well, everyone does. Everyone is doing everything right so everyone has the same amount of impact. However, as we all know, this never happens outside of top level games, and even then players make mistakes.

So, if you're looking at solo Q and trying to rank up, all you can really count on is your own ability. As a tank, you might do great things for your team, but if you aren't eliminating heroes, you aren't as impactful as the players on your team who are eliminating them, with or without your help.
06/21/2016 12:27 PMPosted by Animus
if you aren't eliminating heroes, you aren't as impactful as the players on your team


Killing is obviously important, but it won't happen if your assassins die instantly without the warrior or without the supports. Which is the point of team game, everyone is important, and assassins are not more impactful than others.

Even in some scenario, if assassins kill some players and/or force ennemy team to retreat, it's not going to win the game if all of your lanes are awful and you need to back up to alway defend. Specialists are important too.

Obviously if you're a crazy good assassin who fit in most comp, yea you will win. But same for a very good Johanna or Muradin. Or Karazim or Rehgar. We tend to forget the support who keep you alive even with the crazy damage and while ennemies keep chasing them.

We alway see the cool assassins first in fight and not so much the heals, unless it's like Rehgar ultimate.
Play without a tank to block hits for you or without a healer to help keep you alive before talking about "impact." This is as idiotic as saying that healers and tanks in WoW aren't "impactful." Now, many healers are weak at this point, that's true, but something like pre-patch Rehgar was DEFINITELY impactful.

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