Tyrael/Kerrigan changes on ptr...

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Are complete crap. The main build with each hero has now become weaker while the other neglected talents are still going to be looked over due to the other actually viable ones. Removing a talent with a 65% pickrate and giving no meaningful compensation is incredibly short sighted and reminds me of the days when they nerfed bfb/envenom and then realized that Kerrigan players relied on these. Really disappointed with this patch, looks like I will be waiting another year or two for the heroes I love to get some real love.
Kerrigan's main build got way stronger. (She honestly got buffed overall anyway)

Siphoning Impact was really only good on chain-kills anyway. Her shield talents got consolidated. The reduction on Chain Kill is really not that bad. (And the base mana cost got reduced anyway, so she's really not going to be running out of mana)

That's beyond the fact that she just got a fairly significant health buff and her auto-attack damage is now decent.

The Queen's Rush buff is pretty nice too (and you can actually get that talent).

Tyrael... I need to try out to see. The buffs on his lesser used talents are actually pretty significant, though.
Siphoning impact was definitely good at chains kills, but the q effect along with battle momentum is what gave Kerrigan the ability to win some 1v1s. This completely kills that aspect. Also queens rush is still a crap talent and double strike/q range are definitely the go-tos.

The main point of this update was to give Kerrigan more build diversity, that goal has failed completely.
07/05/2016 11:08 AMPosted by Aldrius
Kerrigan's main build got way stronger. (She honestly got buffed overall anyway)


Arguable.

Siphoning Impact got nerfed pretty hard. Yes, it's main effect was chaining off of Infernal Shrines minions, but it's now a whole lot weaker in a teamfight in any other situation.

Clean Kill change is a double edged sword. The damage increase is nice, the mana cost sucks. Especially if you wanted to do the aforementioned SI chaining. Kerrigan has always been fairly mana intensive when played aggressively (I.e. With BM on 7) now she has a mana cost for her Q spamming on top of her standard mana hungry combo.

That's about it for changes to her main build.

13 was typically Eviscerate at higher skill levels (Which was unchanged)

16 was typically Aggressive Defence/Essence for Essence (Which were unchanged)

20 was typically Bolt of the Storm/Omegastorm (Which were unchanged.

So... She got, more health, more AA damage and a bit more damage from Clean Kill but lost teamfight sustain and had her mana management worsened.

Will have to see how it plays out before I make a final judgement, hopefully that base health will help even out the loss of in-fight SI (Essentially, it's an extra 353 health at level 20. Which is how much a single SI proc gives currently at 20. So if you only Ravage once in a fight on a target that doesn't die you're breaking even)
The main point of this update was to give Kerrigan more build diversity, that goal has failed completely.


I think it definitely helped. You're less reliant on Clean Kill for the mana aspect, Siphoning Impact isn't as mandatory with the health buff. You can build for her shield a little more easily. The radius increase on her W is actually kind of tempting at 7 I think.

I'm not sure why Double Strike is at 13 honestly. Doesn't seem to fit the theme of the tier (mobility). Probably need to move it down to 7 or something. Maybe swap it with Adaptability.

So... She got, more health, more AA damage and a bit more damage from Clean Kill but lost teamfight sustain and had her mana management worsened.


I don't think her mana management is worsened at all with the Ravage buff. Ravage will now cost 10 mana if you're landing your ravage kills. That's really nothing. And Assimilation Mastery is a super attractive pick now for mana/health sustain.
@Aldrius that 10 mana per q is huge. On maps like spider/shrines that really hurts her ability to wave clear and for one of the most mana hungry characters in the game 10 mana can be the difference from a full combo to none.
07/05/2016 11:38 AMPosted by Decoy
@Aldrius that 10 mana per q is huge. On maps like spider/shrines that really hurts her ability to wave clear and for one of the most mana hungry characters in the game 10 mana can be the difference from a full combo to none.

I'm pretty sure they don't want Kerrigan to full wipe a minion wave instantly with no resource expenditure. Up to you on whether or not you agree.
She hasn't been that mana hungry since her rework, though. She's only gonna run out of mana if people are careless with their casting.

Honestly, getting totally free instantaneous wave clear like she had was kind of unfeasible as a game mechanic.

It'll still be strong, just not totally unlimited. I'm a bit concerned that the 40 mana cost is still too high (I know I'm talking out of both sides of my mouth a little bit :P).

I kind of think with the change to Siphoning they could just combine it with Clean Kill and that'd open up some more talent diversity for her.
I think at this point siphoning could be baseline and it would be perfectly balanced. This would at least open up the level 1 talent tier for some more choices. As it is though they really dropped the ball in regards to potential for talents. Why are there no talents to reward hitting multiple heroes with your combo? Or talents that try to emphasize different uses of your skills in different orders? Also why does overdrive still cost mana when charactes like Chromie get a much better version for free?

Chromies talent = 10 second duration, 20% damage increase no mana cost increase

Kerrigans overdrive = 25% damage, 40% mana cost increase, 5 second duration

As for wave clear there are so many characters that instantly delete waves I dont see this as an issue. Kerrigan still had to use her e to get the minions weak enough to one hit q so there was some mana being used.
Sry, but this is a nerf. I dont understand it.
I'm not really a Kerrigan expert, but when I played her I felt way too squishy for being a melee assassin and I felt like her AA didn't hit hard enough, both of these things got buffed, Psionic Pulse is also looking pretty nice now.
I don't really see Q costing 10 mana being a problem, especially since they buffed regen globes like they said they were thinking about, also you can always just take Assimilation Mastery if you feel like you need some extra mana you know.
she doesnt gain 10% hp on q anymore unless she kills the target with it. This is an insane nerf to her combat sustain.
Makes her 1v1 so much weaker. The additional hp is worth less than 10% heal for every q.
Kerrigan still had to use her e to get the minions weak enough to one hit q so there was some mana being used.


She pretty much one-shots ranged minions when her ravage is boosted. This was nerfed because of it's power on Infernal Shrines anyway.

The whole 'people delete waves instantly' thing is also INSANELY overblown.

I think at this point siphoning could be baseline and it would be perfectly balanced.


No way it should be baseline. Just make it a part of Clean Kill. That`d also free up talent space, but you`d have to invest to boost Ravage`s power.
After thinking about it, really the only problem I have with the Siphoning Impact change is that it doesn't do double healing vs heroes to even it out.
again: it heals zero right now. Zero heal against heroes, unless you land the killing blow with ravage. She has so much less sustain after this change unless she is standing inside minion waves.
Honestly, using Ravage when you're not going to land a kill is kind of a waste anyway. You take so much damage diving a hero with it that it's only really useful if you're gonna be able to chain it almost immediately.

10% of Kerrigan's health is really not that much in a vacuum.
07/05/2016 01:53 PMPosted by Aldrius
Honestly, using Ravage when you're not going to land a kill is kind of a waste anyway.


Depends on the situation.

Leaving your Ravage ONLY for KB's really limits your potential as Kerrigan. Sometimes it's really good to use it early to reposition, for example, in order to get a better combo off.

Ideally, yeah, you never need to use Ravage for anything other than KB's and the 10% healing from Siphoning Impact means nothing. However, that's never always the case.

There's a reason why Eviscerate is such a popular talent at high level. It's not because she needs to land KB's with Ravage at that distance (Though it does help with that). But because being able to jump on the right target to position for her heavily position dependent combo is key to doing well - Regardless of if that Ravage killed a target or not.

07/05/2016 01:53 PMPosted by Aldrius
10% of Kerrigan's health is really not that much in a vacuum.


However, it's all she's got.

She's not Thrall and doesn't fart out huge healing just for using her abilities.

All she has is 20% of her hero damage as shields and this 10% max health heal on Ravage to keep her alive.

Also unlike Thrall, she can't sit at range and still contribute. She is a pure melee hero, with close ranged abilities and pretty much no presence at range. So she needs all the sustain she can get (Again, unless you have the perfect scenario where all you need to do is go in, W>E and then clean up with a Q every time)
I haven't had the chance to test out the Kerrigan changes on PTR yet but from what I've read it seems Q build is no longer the thing to go for but to Talent around W. She was only really good on Infernal Shrines and now that she doesn't get 100% mana refunded on kill anymore she kind of became useless in that regard. It will still be okay for wave clear but other than that she won't be able to sustain that playstyle for very long.
I don't think Kerrigan should be played around trying to sustain through fights (in the frontline especially) so I don't see the siphoning impact change as being that bad. If all was going decently you should have been at full health when you jumped in to engage on the backline or did the follow-up CC on the front line so that first Q shouldn't have mattered too much. You would then probably be able to get in 2 or maybe 3 Qs for an average team fight, one of which would probably be a KB anyway. Your extra starting health and the extra shields (however small) you get from the extra auto damage should ALMOST make-up for the loss on siphoning impact.

The way sexier and (in my opinion) more effective way to play Kerrigan (on Tomb of Spider Queen or Dragon Shire, not IS) is to build to be able to completely take a squishy out of a fight. This will usually be a kill on a Squishy or will at least force a D-Shield or Ancestral.

Damage on W--->Envenom--->Momentum--->Maelstrom--->Range on Q--->EfE----> situational, but usually Bolt.

If you are patient when to jump on the backline, this build is really effective (thank you Jhow and Equinox!)
07/05/2016 01:04 PMPosted by Aldrius
She pretty much one-shots ranged minions when her ravage is boosted. This was nerfed because of it's power on Infernal Shrines anyway.


Yes... so let's disturb her entire viability as a melee assassin and limit her capability to 1v1 with other heroes, because it's very powerful on Infernal Shrines...

That makes sense.

Just like "Hmm, no one seems to like Tyrael's trait and the general consensus seems that we should move away from the kamikaze attitude his trait and kit encourages. ... Let's buff it and encourage it further..."

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