Zag

General Discussion
Does anyone not notice she has battle momentum baked into her auto attacks, or is that just me?
She seems rather awkward now. The change to her Q means she no longer self-roots herself so it's a good change. Yet she feels a lot weaker in actual fights because hydras damage and the AA damage were reduced significantly. The AA quest talent is really weird given she has low damage now and no extra range available making it seem really bad talent, yet the other options feel really uninteresting also. I also don't understand the infestation aura on level 1, why does it even have option to turn off when you got nothing to gain by that. It seems like devs want to turn Zag very much from PvP orientation to PvE overall and I'm not really fan of the changes as a lot of the talents seem redundant to the point that there is either one real option again or the choice doesn't even matter.
07/05/2016 03:21 PMPosted by Strahd
Does anyone not notice she has battle momentum baked into her auto attacks, or is that just me?


Well she has BM on creep if you take the nydus. I don't think she was supposed to have basic battle momentum anymore...?
07/05/2016 04:01 PMPosted by Noir
Well she has BM on creep if you take the nydus. I don't think she was supposed to have basic battle momentum anymore...?


Unless bugged.

On a note- Nydus appears much stronger to the typical utility mod it used to bring. Now it serves alot multi-tools for her, team fighting, sustain including the many field jumps you're able to get on the field to before. Hyped ^.
blizzard is trying to make a useless ult viable by changing her almost completely, thats pretty much the new zag.
07/05/2016 05:31 PMPosted by Tiallia
blizzard is trying to make a useless ult viable by changing her almost completely, thats pretty much the new zag.


did you read the developers comments? they wanted her to be less of a mess and more of a summoner/lane bully/scout. and they are doing this to make her fit that role like shes supposed to. her ult played a part in how they were going to arrive at that but they didnt make her based solely off of it
07/05/2016 05:43 PMPosted by Teeki
07/05/2016 05:31 PMPosted by Tiallia
blizzard is trying to make a useless ult viable by changing her almost completely, thats pretty much the new zag.


did you read the developers comments? they wanted her to be less of a mess and more of a summoner/lane bully/scout. and they are doing this to make her fit that role like shes supposed to. her ult played a part in how they were going to arrive at that but they didnt make her based solely off of it

I haven't played on the PTR yet, but my friend who plays a lot of Zag has and she's reported having trouble dealing with ETC 1v1 in lane.

Let that sink in for a bit. Zagara loses to ETC in lane. As it turns out, losing health regen on creep was a pretty big !@#$ing deal.
07/05/2016 05:46 PMPosted by Arachnofiend
Let that sink in for a bit. Zagara loses to ETC in lane. As it turns out, losing health regen on creep was a pretty big !@#$ing deal.


I didn't mind the lost of Incubation as much, just no Reconstitution anymore does pain me when it did alot of the health regen, saves me a trip or two back to hearthstone. It's about the range/speed to harass other players but its difficult to establish her lane bully presence with nerfed player damage (AA+Hunter) without any consistent healing to back up.
why does it even have option to turn off when you got nothing to gain by that.


1) 'soaking' a lane doesn't mean you have to push it as hard as possible. At some phases or maps, zag isn't going to want to push her lane out because she'll either be vulnerable to ganks, and thus unable to safely stay in xp range. Turning off the aura allows zag to sit back and not auto push the lane out.

2) stalling the lane for specific moments of time, such as defending against a wave of mercs or map monsters. If the aura is on, the wave may push out too soon and not be in the right position to better contribute to defending that point.

3) minions dealing more damage means zag is dealing less. In earlier parts of the game (where she's not going to be hard pushing) it can be better to just toggle it off so she can milk more points.
Nydus canal is now very strong. It gives her battle momentum with 1 full second cooldown per attack.

At lvl 16 you can have hydras out 100% of the time, or even have like 7 mutalisks going under certain circumstances.
Another rework that was not necessary. She plays completely different now. Her Banelings are single shots now - I wonder why. And they turned her mainly into an AA hero with stuff to boost her AA. I thought, AA should be buffed for assassin heroes who need it, not for specialists.

Her main problem before was her hunter killer. That thing was still too strong in early game and was a main reason why she was such a strong lane bully. The rest of her kit of was totally fine.

Now they removed her creep talent build and completely reworked her. Strong focus on Nydus, too. And this buff with ranged minions near her... why? What's the deal here? The Infest talent before was just fine.
Having tried her a few times now, I approve of MOST of the changes. I'll try to be thorough, skip to Conclusion if you don't want to read it all.

Creep changes:
    Awesome. It hurts to lose the regeneration, but in exchange, she gets infinitely better spread in the early game, which benefits her team greatly in terms of overall vision. The only thing I'd change is the increased cooldowns, that is an unnecessary change IMO that only hinders the character.

Baneling changes:
    This is by far the worst part of the changes. There is no way you can tell me that she's better off with single-burst banelings. I'd rather have my targetable barrage of four banelings back, to be honest. This change utterly ruined one of her best abilities for pushing a lane or providing zoning pressure in a team fight. Most of the talent changes are bad ones, too. Baneling Massacre was rendered half as effective as it was. Centrifugal Hooks is gone (denying her any sort of long-range zoning). All in all, this is a terrible change.

Hunter Killer changes:
    I'm actually pretty fond of these changes. HK needed a nerf due to its early-game pressure on squishy heroes, which made her too good as a bully. And most of the talents here are pretty reasonable. If I had one complaint, it's that most of the talents are on the same tier, making HK significantly weaker throughout the game than it'd be if you could pick more than one of these talents. So that's a bit of a bummer.

Infested Drop changes:
    Mostly talent changes here, but worth mentioning. Bile Drop is easy to complete, but honestly doesn't feel like it's worth selecting. Despite being a 150% increase in damage and a 20% larger radius, this talent just doesn't feel as impactful as it should.

Nydus Network changes:
    Love it. I'm not too fond of the creep requirement, but the fact that you can essentially be anywhere you want on the map in quick fashion is a handy tool. It encourages Zagara players to roam more, planting creep everywhere (which is good because a lot of poor Zag players forgot to spread creep like they should) so they can network all over the map. I used it on Infernal Shrines to have quick access to every merc camp AND all three shrines. This will be VERY effective for larger maps.

Devouring Maw changes:
    I'm not sure why this ability was changed at all. It looks like you've nerfed it for no real reason whatsoever, except to try and make Nydus Network look better. Which is a terrible reason to change an ult that already works.

Other Talent changes:
  • Envenomed Spines should be reverted, as the change to it is absolutely terrible.
  • Medusa Blades was buffed nicely.
  • Serrated Spines (the new talent) feels like it's not nearly strong enough to justify its selection, because by the time you've built up enough damage to make it worth mentioning, the game's nearly over.
  • I actually love Infest in its new form because it's easy for Zagara to deal siege effectively, meaning it's basically free damage every time she gets in a lane. No clue why you'd every want to toggle it off, though, since it costs no mana....so I'm not sure why you bothered making it a toggle at all.
  • Why did you strip EVERY single self-sustain that Zagara had? I was cool with losing the built-in sustain from Creep. I'm not cool with losing both Reconstitution and also Rapid Incubation.
  • Perhaps the second largest complaint I have is here: Zagara originally had 4-5 talents per tier, and what you've done has stripped her down to three talents per tier for essentially no real reason. Why? Why would you REDUCE the number of choices we get? That is a terrible decision. Give her back some of the talents she lost to keep her at four choices per tier. There's no reason to reduce the number of valid selections she has through artificial means, especially when many other heroes all get four or even five talent selections per tier.

Conclusion (TL;DR):
    Zagara has been pretty definitely nerfed.

    1) She's lost all forms of self-sustain.
    2) A lot of talents were removed for seemingly no reason except to limit her to three per tier.
    3) Her Baneling Barrage is significantly less effective as a zoning and laning tool.
    4) Her most used ult (Maw) was nerfed mostly to help make Nydus look better.

    While there are a number of positive changes in this patch that I like very much, the nerfs are very disappointing and I'm afraid that they will reduce the character's effectiveness overall. I used to play Zagara quite a lot before the patch....now I'm not sure if I'll play her much, if at all.
07/05/2016 05:46 PMPosted by Arachnofiend
07/05/2016 05:43 PMPosted by Teeki
...

did you read the developers comments? they wanted her to be less of a mess and more of a summoner/lane bully/scout. and they are doing this to make her fit that role like shes supposed to. her ult played a part in how they were going to arrive at that but they didnt make her based solely off of it

I haven't played on the PTR yet, but my friend who plays a lot of Zag has and she's reported having trouble dealing with ETC 1v1 in lane.

Let that sink in for a bit. Zagara loses to ETC in lane. As it turns out, losing health regen on creep was a pretty big !@#$ing deal.


Your friend needs to get out of the wood league first, then discuss hero balance.
Zagara is fine. The main problem is that her playstyle is vastly changed now, and people can't cope with change that fast, so it is understandable that there is going to be a lot of QQ over the next few weeks about it.

We can expect post Nova-rework levels of QQ.

In my opinion, Zagara is incredibly better and more diverse now.

The main issue Zagara had, was that she was very easy to play effectively. Just assigning mutalisks on an enemy doesn't take much skill.

She lost her sustain, but got better baseline creep, which gives her the 20% improved range baseline. That means, that if you are skilled in placing creep and kiting, you won't get hurt so much, so it is the same like having the sustain. It just takes more skill, which of course the playerbase doesn't have in adequate supply, hence the QQs.

Her talents are all pretty good, and i like her diversity, she can be build in many different ways and playstyles now.

I will make a detailed post about her builds soonish.
The AA quest talent is really weird given she has low damage now and no extra range available making it seem really bad talent...


She gets a 20 percent range bonus now baked into the creep ability.
so i stopped reading because it seems people are commenting without actually getting some time in. if you want to know how she is, go play her. but honestly, she is better in all ways. yes all.
1. her push is harder and better. took some getting used to using the new banalings but if your quick you can shoot them in a spread and cover a large area. its nice. along with stronger pushing options. she can now destroy a lane if left unchecked.
2. on paper it might seem like her damage is lower, but i can easily top hero damage. the quest that adds .3 damage per hit on a hero is insane and will likey be nerfed a bit. with the range on creep you can poke with almost no chance of getting killed... on creep that is. and sure, no more double HK. thats fine. take the cooldown skill at 16 and you can poop a hydra every 6 seconds. dont even care i cant have two at one time. every 6 seconds having one to sick on someone will quickly add up and be a very good way of running off people trying to kill you.
3. the new nydus is awesome imo. love the lvl 20 for it. 40% run speed on creep. i have fantastic creep spread on maps. so ill be running all over the map with zero issues (not to mention canals) and i love it. it gives you a very viable option over maw (which i do still think is the better choice most often). Large maps though? nydus could create nightmares. jumping from one side of the map to the other. pushing a lane, then coming right back to the action. say on eternal shrines?
So go play her. it is a complete and total buff. wouldnt say op, but in good hands she is going to be even better than before.
07/05/2016 01:00 PMPosted by Cougar7
Actually, considering the infest talent on level 1 and the minion damage buff against structures, a zag left alone will probably push a lane harder than anyone.


This is irrelevant. A Zagara NOW can push a lane harder than anyone, if she's left uncontested.

This is all the result of infest having a less than 1% competitive pick rate. Nobody knows that you can heal minions with it. Nobody knows that archers become stronger than hydralisks in siege damage. Nobody knows that Corpse Feeders can soak up cannon fire better than skeletons. Nobody knows that broodlings could tear a keep down on their own if you summoned 3 waves on a single lane. And it seems only the smallest fraction of people realise that catapults get x5 damage with the current infest, making Zagara better at Core-Cracking than any hero in the game.

The changes are ridiculous to the extreme. Her teamfight power has been reduced, her global play has been increased to superfluity, and her baseline siege strength has been improved, at the cost of removing her high ceiling potential power when you do things exactly right.

You think it's easy to set up a 3 broodling wave and emerge just in time to amplify catapults while the enemy waveclear is somewhere else? That requires practice, coordination with your team, and the element of surprise. Now, sure, she'll be able to break a fort or two if left alone and throw Maw at people in teamfights. But the potential is gone, and the fact that minions are so much stronger on their own means that an Assassin or Warrior can be used to escort them anyway without sacrificing teamfight strength. Hell, Catapults dont even need to be escorted to the core anymore, theyll deal Core damage on their own.

Blizzard is confusing redundancy for power. I really hope they'll abandon this ploy and let Zagara stay as she is.
Zagara is really good now, with tons of viable builds to try.

The main problem with her, and the reason all the no-skill crybabies QQ, is that her skill floor just went up a lot.

With current Zagara, it is extremely easy to bully people out of a lane early game, and to contribute to teamfights late game. It takes 0 skill.

This Zagara, has better potential, people need to play with her more to realize this.

The problem is, she now takes skill. She is not nearly as forgiving as previous Zagara, and to get the most out of her, you have to up your game.

This is Greymane's Incediary Elixir change v 2.0 . Tons of QQ over nothing.
07/05/2016 11:06 PMPosted by CriticKitten
Having tried her a few times now, I approve of MOST of the changes.

07/05/2016 11:06 PMPosted by CriticKitten
I used to play Zagara quite a lot before the patch....now I'm not sure if I'll play her much, if at all.

So you approve of the most of the changes which have made one of your favorite characters unplayable in your eyes? mmmKay.
07/05/2016 12:34 PMPosted by Lionslicer
Didn't have time to read patch notes is she buffed or nerfed same?

Zagara got the Sylvanas treatment, and just like Sylvanas, we'll probably see her pick rate go down.

I hardly play Sylvanas now, who used to be my favorite character, and I foresee myself doing the same with Zagara.

Join the Conversation

Return to Forum