Braxis Holdout Feedback

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Visually great, concept-wise it's great. But oh my god the points, can you *please* make it so 1 point gains zerg at a slower rate? Because it is NOT fun to play a tense back-and-forth game, only to have it suddenly turn into an 100% vs 30% zerg wave.

Please have both sides gain zerg slowly, and reduce the impact of the zerg wave. Right now, if you don't have an ideal comp, absolutely everything gets tossed to the side just to hold those two points. Toss in a long-range portal Medivh, or a Nova who is playing *in just a certain way,* and it stops being fun.
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Changes:
For one I'd have 3 points. A central point that charges at a medium speed, and 1 point on the top and bottom that together charge as fast as the one middle point.

This means you can all in for the middle, or split for top and bot and have the same point generation - meaning there are more opportunities for teams to either stack or split as a strategy.

I'd also decrease point generation speeds, and decrease zerg effectiveness.
i kinda like the way the map plays...

at some point you're forced to split if you want the zerg rush :p so many possible scenarios (more then with the temples)

if only infernal shrines was more like this map instead of CC reliant (clump minions together and hit them with CC and repeat untill you get it)
The zergs in the map just fill to damn fast I think in general takes only 30sec. Also if the team is wiped that means enemy team can cap zergs to 100% without any of them even respawning. And not to mention it only takes two zerg rushes to have core totally exposed.
My personal take on the map:

1) Remove boss. There's simply no need.
2) Add forts to mid for each team. No 'lane' or minion waves here, just a forward position from which each team can work towards objectives, regardless of how far back their lanes are pushed.
3) Slow down the objectives. On most maps a team wipe at level 20+ basically means the game is lost. The speed of objective captures on this map means that a team wipe at level 7 guarantees a huge zerg wave against you, from which recovery will be very difficult.
4) Change merc camps from offensive to defensive! Have a merc camp that doesn't push down the lane, but instead fortifies a fort, keep, or even the core. I know this is a 'unique' idea, but mercs are overkill for this map. The boss, if not removed, could be changed to basically another fort - doesn't advance, but once captured he heads to a missing fort/keep location and takes it place. If no forts are missing, then he simply reinforces one with repairs/rebuilding towers, perhaps. There doesn't really need to be a benefit to getting mercs if you're already dominating the game. Zerg waves are enough.
5) As a way to slow down objectives, progress could be halted by enemy presence (like on sky temple). Can still be 'captured' and used without an ally present, but skirmishes on the objective would negate its progress right away.
6) To help with 5, larger objective areas would also be nice. Right now you can't really fight over an objective unless you are melee.
This map is crazy for snowballing, beyond that of Mines. We ever wreck face, or get wrecked. There's just no way after losing <30% to 100% that you can make up the 2/3 level XP gain the winning team has over you by the time the next objective comes up.
At least make it so you have to stand on the point to generate zerg. If they have the point, they just have to camp near it and nuke you when you try to grab it back. You have to stand still for a few seconds on a tiny pad. Gank city. And after the first good enemy wave, your next health fountain is a hike away, so if you want to go and come back, the pool is already full.

Has yet to be a game in this where I've been in front, or behind, and it's swung the other way. You get behind, that's it.
Simple fixes:
*Make it slower to fill the zerg swarm, right now it's too damn fast;
*Make 100% for both teams holdings together, simillar to Haunted Mines worked, example:
-blue team capped 40% and lost the objective; red team cap until 60%, than the zerg swarm are released for both teams.
-or make the same, but the zerg swarm wont release if it doesn't get to 100%, so you will ned to wait for the objective to "spawn" again (simillar to Garden of Terror);
-Reduce the impact of the zerg swarm, right now, they are too strong;
-remove mercs and boss when the objective is released, like Dragon Shire, Garden of Terror, and such. Don't know why the new maps with "enemies spawn objectives" doesn't remove the mercs anymore;
It's funny because they removed Haunted Mines due to being snowbally game where you almost couldn't catch up, while this game is 90% same mechanics (2 lanes, objective swarm/boss push the lane), and has the same snowball problems. The only difference between both is the way you get the objective, nothing else.

I find Haunted Mines much better concept-wise due to 2 simple facts: you could play the strategy of pushing instead of getting skulls and golem, which gave you some opportunities in late game if you struggled on objectives. In Braxis capturing the spots are the only thing to do, no other options, objective spots are so close to lanes that you can't avoid them.
And second: Haunted Mines gave much more play headroom in the mines entries and in the mines themselves, you are not restricted to lanes/mid camp teamfights all time like you are in Braxis.
09/21/2016 01:16 AMPosted by Nyumus
Simple fixes:
*Make it slower to fill the zerg swarm, right now it's too damn fast;

I agree. I think this is the biggest problem.

*Make 100% for both teams holdings together, simillar to Haunted Mines worked, example:
-blue team capped 40% and lost the objective; red team cap until 60%, than the zerg swarm are released for both teams.

Ehhh... I don't know about this. If one team got it to above 50% then all they could just focus on pushing/holding one beacon instead of finishing the objective. I think it makes sense needing to get to 100%.

-or make the same, but the zerg swarm wont release if it doesn't get to 100%, so you will ned to wait for the objective to "spawn" again (simillar to Garden of Terror);

So the beacons are only active for a window of time? Maybe.


-Reduce the impact of the zerg swarm, right now, they are too strong;

I've seen teams obliterate 100% zerg swarms. You can definitely draft the right AOE characters to mess them up and severely reduce their impact so I only somewhat agree that they're too strong. I think the Ultralisks are the main culprits with how problematic the zerg swarms can be. They're tanky as hell.


-remove mercs and boss when the objective is released, like Dragon Shire, Garden of Terror, and such. Don't know why the new maps with "enemies spawn objectives" doesn't remove the mercs anymore;

They are removed aren't they? Its only Infernal Shrines where the mercs stay up after an objective boss monster is released.
We're not quite hitting the results we were aiming for with Braxis Holdout. In an upcoming patch, we'll be reducing the strength of the Swarm in early-game and mid-game. We'll also be increasing the strength of the Swarm in late-game.

Hopefully the pushing power of the swarm will feel more manageable after the update.
I just made a post of this but ill do it here because everyone else is:
this maps is almost the same as haunted mines, just like everyone has noticed, but I think everyone has forgotten how to approach a map of this type. first lets examine the BG event. its a swarm of zerg and it pushes. for this reason people say its like haunted mines. in HM the best strategy for winning in my experience is slowing down the golem on defense. the golem is like peristalsis; its going to make a net forward movement so your only hope is to slow it down or "constipate" it. after we think about this we move to the lane aspect. the problem I often see is that teams will want to group together to win (its the "current meta" after all right?). the problem is we have 2 lanes. that means if you are roaming together since obj #1 you are missing 1/2 potential experience while leaving the other obj zone defenseless. all I can see as a viable option is to gain an early lead then use it as a cushion to roam together and gank to make up for lost exp. this either requires some team coordinated effort to gain exp(?) or a nice 3-2 split or 2-1-2 split where 1 is a roamer like nova/zera/dehaka/falstad/aba. ive lost to this formation just about every game ive lost. mostly the difference when running this strategy is whearther or not you know when to retreat. its a small map so retreat early and often and youll win.
the siege camp needs to be buffed. the goliath and raven one is much stronger in lane
I find this map to be very similar to battle field of eternity though. The big difference is that on BoE it is way easier to win "half the objective, so the immortal loses its shields and dies fast. The issue is that once a team caps the beacons, it is hard for the other team to get them back.

Also similar to BoE is the fact that as a two lane map losing a fort or keep is a big deal. That is why you can't afford to have the early game objective be so strong. One Sylvanas push can be an easy GG right off the bat. But we'll see what happens when they reduce the early game zerg's power.
From a draft mode perspective I think they'd be too weak if you nerfed them early. Especially with all the run around to benny hill while the teams trade points.

QM of course you can't play the map with your picks, but I'm not sure if you can balance qm and draft with this map.
Nerfing early swarms seems weird to me. It's already possible to stop an entire swarm with a single AoE hero without even losing a fort. In games where most of the team defends, even the large swarm can be stopped without it so much as taking out the wall.

Objectives need to matter, and particularly on a map where split pushing is so ineffective.
09/22/2016 11:23 AMPosted by Trikslyr
We're not quite hitting the results we were aiming for with Braxis Holdout. In an upcoming patch, we'll be reducing the strength of the Swarm in early-game and mid-game. We'll also be increasing the strength of the Swarm in late-game.

Hopefully the pushing power of the swarm will feel more manageable after the update.


DId you read the posts? Your solution won't help the current problem. It will only prolong the games...

Not to mention that global prsence heroes ( dehaka/ falstad) heroes got such an advantage on this map that it is not healthy at all.
I think the main problem is timing. The second objective (both capturing it and then the zerg swarm itself) typically happens while the team that won the first objective has level 10 but the team that didn't doesn't. So winning the first objective almost guarantees winning the second.
I'm all for balance changes but isn't the definition of a "swarm" supposed to be unmanageable? I hope it isn't reduced to just an inconvenience.
09/23/2016 01:33 AMPosted by zlajo
09/22/2016 11:23 AMPosted by Trikslyr
We're not quite hitting the results we were aiming for with Braxis Holdout. In an upcoming patch, we'll be reducing the strength of the Swarm in early-game and mid-game. We'll also be increasing the strength of the Swarm in late-game.

Hopefully the pushing power of the swarm will feel more manageable after the update.


DId you read the posts? Your solution won't help the current problem. It will only prolong the games...

Not to mention that global prsence heroes ( dehaka/ falstad) heroes got such an advantage on this map that it is not healthy at all.
It will help a bit. For the sole reason that the ones who win the first wave now will get less of an advantage and thus less experience, so they won't be 2 levels higher then the other team by the next objective.

However, I do think this is not the final solution. It may help, but it will only help a really tiny bit.
So after this they need to come up with more. But it's a start.

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