Ragnaros Nerf Ideas

General Discussion
12/16/2016 12:19 PMPosted by Dreadspectre
I'm still amused at Lava Wave complaints. Getting exp from lanes is not a new thing, Azmo can do it to an extent.


I'm with you on dodging lava wave in most circumstances (not at enemy core with no warning though). If it kills you you deserve to die. Lava Wave negates all the work any spec has done all game with a press of the button. And he can do it twice at level 20. Why even take a keep? Cats don't mean anything against him. That's the problem with it (and the XP icing on the cake). If anyone else got a talent that said "kill all minions in a lane from anywhere on the map and all enemy mercs in that lane take half damage" you'd say that was OP. And that wouldn't even include any hero damage.
12/16/2016 12:19 PMPosted by Dreadspectre
I'm still amused at Lava Wave complaints. Getting exp from lanes is not a new thing, Azmo can do it to an extent.

[/quote]

Azmo General can be countered, you can kill it easily and also it doesn't depush a lane completely (and that is why it is not on a 100 sec cooldown). Also you get your bonus exp only after he killed all the enemy minions (that takes a while, even more time to counter it), not almost immediately after you cast it like in Ragnaros ultimate case.
12/16/2016 12:19 PMPosted by Dreadspectre
I'm still amused at Lava Wave complaints. Getting exp from lanes is not a new thing, Azmo can do it to an extent.


[quote]Azmo General can be countered, you can kill it easily and also it doesn't depush a lane completely (and that is why it is not on a 100 sec cooldown). Also you get your bonus exp only after he killed all the enemy minions (that takes a while, even more time to counter it), not almost immediately after you cast it like in Ragnaros ultimate case.


I was referring to the fact that he can Globe an adjacent lane with Pool, one shot the clump and get exp for the team off it.
12/16/2016 12:37 PMPosted by Dreadspectre

I was referring to the fact that he can Globe an adjacent lane with Pool, one shot the clump and get exp for the team off it.


He has to be somewhat near a wave to do that, has to use his ult + Q, and he can't do that to 2 or 3 waves at once. Azmo is completely obsolete vs Rag, and if Rag is available you'd never pick Azmo.
12/16/2016 12:46 PMPosted by bauxite
12/16/2016 12:37 PMPosted by Dreadspectre

I was referring to the fact that he can Globe an adjacent lane with Pool, one shot the clump and get exp for the team off it.


He has to be somewhat near a wave to do that, has to use his ult + Q, and he can't do that to 2 or 3 waves at once. Azmo is completely obsolete vs Rag, and if Rag is available you'd never pick Azmo.


Uhh...sure I would. Because Azmo's ult and Q wouldn't be worthless outside of lanes like Rag's Lava would be.

Also Azmo could safely Pool/Q Rag in Core mode and pretty much cut his duration in half easily by himself.
way too much!

Just nerf his dmg a little, he's easy to kill
12/16/2016 08:53 AMPosted by bauxite
1) Ragnaros can be killed while he's using his trait on a fort. Also, his health in fort-form should be at the same percentage as normal Rag when he jumped on the fort. Likewise, if enemy heroes damage him while he is on the fort, he should have the same percent health when he gets off the fort.

2) 3-5 second delay after casting Lava Wave. As of now it starts at the core immediately after casting, which means heroes hear the enemy core are being hit by it as the audio warning is playing.

3) Rag has to be near the core to cast Lava Wave. That's where it starts right?

4) As an alternative to 3, or along with it, Rag should have to channel the entire time Lava Wave is going. Put him in stasis underground (like his lvl 20 talent) while he's channeling. He can cancel it of course and then the lava wave stops.

5) Maybe make Lava Wave the first friendly-fire ability. Any unit from either team caught in the wave takes the damage.

6) He is too tanky, reduce his health. I bet you can play him as a solo warrior if you take all the healing talents. A solo warrior who can depush a lane with a click and hop on a fort to double his health pool.

Do some of those and we'll see if he needs numbers tweaks later.

Wow you really want him to be completely useless huh?
I'm glad you are not working at Blizzard and I hope they don't take note from this lol.
Do not lower the xp the minions are worth just because lava wave killed them. The last thing I need is trigger happy rag players denying their own team xp by reducing their value >.>
12/16/2016 08:53 AMPosted by bauxite
3) Rag has to be near the core to cast Lava Wave. That's where it starts right?


someone let the nova players know that they need to go to space to use Precision Strike, because thats where it starts, right? :D
12/16/2016 12:16 PMPosted by bauxite
Sigh, almost all my suggestions have to do with nerfing Lava Wave. You know what his other heroic is at for win rate? 54%. Take lava wave away completely and that's where he's at. The other 2 changes I suggested (lower his health somewhat, make him killable in trait form) are fairly minor. Hell, what I suggested might put him at exactly 50%, oh the humanity!


No they are not all changes to Lava Wave. In fact, judging by your original post, I'm convinced you are either trolling or lack knowledge and are spouting random nerfs simply because you dislike his current state
If you really are just lacking knowledge, here's a few things to address your original points:

12/16/2016 08:53 AMPosted by bauxite
1) Ragnaros can be killed while he's using his trait on a fort. Also, his health in fort-form should be at the same percentage as normal Rag when he jumped on the fort. Likewise, if enemy heroes damage him while he is on the fort, he should have the same percent health when he gets off the fort.


You have a nerf to his Trait. This will destroy his trait and completely discourage its use. He goes down extremely quickly with a lot of focus since his Trait HP burns down quickly as well on top of the focused damage.

You want him to get killed for real on his trait? On top of his trait basically having lowered health AND uptime because not being at full HP will cause his trait to lose a ton of health? On top of him possibly being basically dead if he cancels early because of the big HP burn he has in Molten Core?! Or straight up dead if he stays in full duration?!

That's not a nerf to Lava Wave, that's gutting his trait COMPLETELY!

12/16/2016 08:53 AMPosted by bauxite
5) Maybe make Lava Wave the first friendly-fire ability. Any unit from either team caught in the wave takes the damage.


Friendly fire on Lava Wave?! You mean you WANT a troll on the team to completely wipe his own team while they are focused on defending and give the enemy a free win during a push?! This will turn Ragnaros into an extremely high ban-rate hero not because of his power, but because of the potential for a troll to lose the game for you completely
That alone destroys Lava Wave's usefulness, throw on the other changes you suggested and it completely guts it
Let's also not forget it killing friendly mercs and minions essentially destroying the entire point of it

12/16/2016 08:53 AMPosted by bauxite
6) He is too tanky, reduce his health. I bet you can play him as a solo warrior if you take all the healing talents. A solo warrior who can depush a lane with a click and hop on a fort to double his health pool.


He has far less HP than any Warrior in the game. His HP is actually on par with pre-rework Butcher and after like 2 weeks of sheep complaining how he could be a solo warrior because of his healing and damage reduction talents people quickly realized how that wasn't possible

And if HP is a problem have you taken a look at Azmodan Nazeebo or Gul'dan? The 3 of them can get MASSIVE HP as RANGED heroes who specialize in massive AoE damage and self sustain depending on talents taken

12/16/2016 08:53 AMPosted by bauxite
2) 3-5 second delay after casting Lava Wave. As of now it starts at the core immediately after casting, which means heroes hear the enemy core are being hit by it as the audio warning is playing.


This is the only somewhat sensible (if unnecessary) nerf listed. As it stands, Lava Wave's only use is clearing waves and possibly helping defend as a last-ditch effort to keep the enemy away
That nerf completely removes that last part and lava wave's damage is not the reason it is so strong. The only reason it is strong is because of its wave clear and xp gain. Even with said xp gain, Azmodan can accomplish similar feats by just Globing a wave across the map while he soaks another lane
[quote="207508188080"]1) Ragnaros can be killed while
I'm glad you are not working at Blizzard and I hope they don't take note from this lol.


Are you guys just trolls? If he didn't have lava wave at all he'd be overtuned (Smash 54% HL winrate). Almost everything I suggest has to do with lava wave. Having to be at core to cast it? How much do you think that would cost his win rate? Not much? A 10 second channel while in stasis for what that ult does? That would really make him useless? Give me a break.

Why is it you think he should be unkillable in trait form? Why does he have a health pool at all? Really should just have a timer because it takes most of the timer to eat his new hp pool and then he pops out all shiny and new.
12/16/2016 01:18 PMPosted by bauxite
Are you guys just trolls?


Maybe others are, maybe they aren't but I've addressed your points already on why they would be bad nerfs

12/16/2016 01:18 PMPosted by bauxite
Almost everything I suggest has to do with lava wave.


2/6 of your suggestions are not related to Lava Wave. Both of these would greatly destroy his viability

12/16/2016 01:18 PMPosted by bauxite
Why is it you think he should be unkillable in trait form?


He is not unkillable in trait form. He dies extremely quickly when focused and is affected by %HP damage like Giant killer and such

No, your suggestions are not making trait for easier to kill, your suggestions are making him extremely easy to kill. If he is killable on trait form then he's done. Trait form is completely destroyed

12/16/2016 01:18 PMPosted by bauxite
Why does he have a health pool at all?


Because then there is actually counterplay and he is able to be quickly brought out of it

12/16/2016 01:18 PMPosted by bauxite
A 10 second channel while in stasis for what that ult does?


In that time I'll just dunk 2 waves as Azmodan for almost the same effect. In the hero spotlight, they made it clear that that heroic is intended to be a splitpush assistance tool

12/16/2016 01:18 PMPosted by bauxite
Having to be at core to cast it? How much do you think that would cost his win rate?


His winrate? Maybe not much
That heroic's winrate? Massive. A part of its strength is to be able to fire it on the move and quickly defend or push while elsewhere

Maybe he needs tuning later, but currently those nerfs suggested aren't going to balance him. Those just destroy his quality of life and throw on unnecessary clunkiness
To WutsKraken

Yes, the trait change does not have to do with lava wave as I already mentioned. However, I see it as a minor nerf. Rags generally use the trait to interrupt objectives (ToD, DS, IS, etc) when they have no fear of taking damage. Other times I've seen it used say on top fort while mid fort is being attacked. That's unaffected. Now if a Rag jumps on a fort by himself with no teammates around and gets killed on it, why should be pop out, then use E and get away? Or if he defends a fort with it with some teammates around he'll have to choose when it's not safe to stay. Right now it's like a Muradin ult on steroids. A Rag player would have to weigh the risks in scenarios like those. Would not cause a huge drop in win rate in my opinion.

The friendly fire idea was just spit-balling (hence the word "maybe"). And you scream how this would wipe your own team, but probably also in the same breath you're telling everyone on the other team they have all day to dodge it and should l2p.

Rag has over 4800 health at level 20, only warriors & Azmo (no heal talents, doesn't have good AA) have more. Anub has less, Sonya barely more. I don't think any other assassins are even close. Nazeebo needs a trait and a talent to get there. Combine this with his great sustain talents and you have a very tanky bruiser.

I've seen lava wave team wipes when the other team was about to win, no warning, boom dead at the enemy core. Yeah, that's fun and not broken. Any other hero have a "wipe other team now because they're about to win" button?
well the only input i can really add to this is to prevent him from acing the entire enemy team at his base they should make the damage build up the farther it is down the lane

so it will do a smaller amount near his inhib but if he is winning he can deal more damage with it to their end

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/heroes/topic/20752536611
to avoid things like this

i really think they should remove the damage to minions though because its making him better than actual specialist classes in wave clearing
Even if the other team let you run around wherever you wanted, you wouldn't kill 2 or 3 waves with Azmo in 10 seconds. But we could reduce the channel to 5 seconds or something and see how that goes if that makes you happy.

What games are you playing where you can get Rags out of a fort quickly? Everyone on the team would have to focus him and for what? He'll just pop out and you're still fighting him. I'd rather just have him in there and dodge his slower attacks and kill his teammates than waste 8 seconds/cooldowns/mana when he'll be out in 18 anyway.
12/16/2016 01:46 PMPosted by bauxite
Yes, the trait change does not have to do with lava wave as I already mentioned. However, I see it as a minor nerf. Rags generally use the trait to interrupt objectives (ToD, DS, IS, etc) when they have no fear of taking damage. Other times I've seen it used say on top fort while mid fort is being attacked. That's unaffected. Now if a Rag jumps on a fort by himself with no teammates around and gets killed on it, why should be pop out, then use E and get away? Or if he defends a fort with it with some teammates around he'll have to choose when it's not safe to stay. Right now it's like a Muradin ult on steroids. A Rag player would have to weigh the risks in scenarios like those. Would not cause a huge drop in win rate in my opinion.


I have to disagree with this. Muradin is mobile whereas Ragnaros is stationary. Additionally, if a Ragnaros is stupid enough to try to defend 1v5 on a fort then he will fall out of his trait extremely quickly. CC and 5 players will make short work of him when he's out
Maybe a range nerf would be okay, but painting a huge target on Ragnaros when he's supposed to be at his greatest power is not the answer. Believe it or not, he's very vulnerable on a fort if the enemy is pushing with a boss or some other big objective because he cannot stun the boss and his boss damage in Molten Core is not very high.
Making him killable on that fort will probably drop his winrate massively because as I emphasized before, that HP burn keeps Molten Core in check, with that hp burn plus making him killable, plus reducing his HP based on current HP, using Molten Core may as well be committing suicide.
In compensation he would need more HP and get rid of that HP burn. But that would probably make it too hard to bring him down. Overall, making him killable on a fort is NOT the answer

12/16/2016 01:55 PMPosted by bauxite
What games are you playing where you can get Rags out of a fort quickly? Everyone on the team would have to focus him and for what?


What games have I been in where a Ragnaros goes down quick? When I've played with or as a Tychus who just mows him down while we take care of the enemy team or a Butcher since Butcher can flank Ragnaros and heal off of him. Let's also not forget Butcher's extremely strong Single Target damage
My personal record for bringing down a Ragnaros out of his fort is literally 3 seconds

12/16/2016 01:46 PMPosted by bauxite
The friendly fire idea was just spit-balling (hence the word "maybe"). And you scream how this would wipe your own team, but probably also in the same breath you're telling everyone on the other team they have all day to dodge it and should l2p.


Never did I once say the enemy should l2p to get outta the wave.
Wiping his own team aside, killing his own minions, punisher, boss, mercs, etc kinda ruins the point of Lava Wave. In some cases, it will be extremely detrimental and may even help an enemy push if there are bosses and mercs coming since his own mercs will take more damage from a wave as they move away from it in a straight line while enemy mercs will take less by moving towards it.
Again, the griefing potential of killing his own team and/or assisting an enemy push is there and stupid
This is like saying a Gazlowe bomb should be friendly fire because at lvl 20 the area covers an entire lane and can cause Gazlowe to single-handedly wipe the enemy and forces the enemy team to get out or die
His team should not be forced to have to play around a FRIENDLY ability possibly killing them

12/16/2016 01:46 PMPosted by bauxite
I've seen lava wave team wipes when the other team was about to win, no warning, boom dead at the enemy core. Yeah, that's fun and not broken.


That is the only potentially devastating part of Lava Wave that honestly lacks counterplay and again the only somewhat sensible nerf I see from what you posted

12/16/2016 01:46 PMPosted by bauxite
Rag has over 4800 health at level 20, only warriors & Azmo (no heal talents, doesn't have good AA) have more. Anub has less, Sonya barely more. I don't think any other assassins are even close. Nazeebo needs a trait and a talent to get there. Combine this with his great sustain talents and you have a very tanky bruiser.


I'm gonna agree that Ragnaros is a pretty decently durable assassin, but your numbers are off and exaggerated:

Ragnaros has exactly 4605 HP at lvl 20. He has 2 situational healing talents: Catching Fire at lvl 4 for Regen Globes and Cauterize Wounds at lvl 13 which gives him a HoT for hitting heroes. Plus, Ragnaros has 0 CC and very minor mobility. I think having HP is fair, especially since thematically he is the strongest elemental lord

Reworked Butcher has 4705 HP at lvl 20

Anubarak has 4882 HP at lvl 20

Sonya has 5182 HP at lvl 20

Greymane comes close at 4518 HP at lvl 20 and he has the benefit of a ranged form albiet no sustain

Nazeebo's has 3592 HP at lvl 20. HP gain is now his trait, no need to talent into it. Big Voodoo just makes it easier and is his most picked level 4 talent.
Stacking up to 4605 requires him to kill about 127 minions with Big Voodoo. Very easy to do in the course of the game for me as a Nazeebo player

Azmodan has 6004 HP at lvl 20 and DOES have heal talents:
Gluttony at lvl 4: All will Burn heals for 20% of damage dealt
Gluttonous Ward at lvl 7: 10 second ward that heals 3% of HP and Mana every second
Sin for Sin at level 16: Activate to deal 10% of an enemy hero's HP and heal Azmodan for twice that amount
His All Will Burn damage is again, devastating if he can just channel the entire time

12/16/2016 01:55 PMPosted by bauxite
Even if the other team let you run around wherever you wanted, you wouldn't kill 2 or 3 waves with Azmo in 10 seconds. But we could reduce the channel to 5 seconds or something and see how that goes if that makes you happy.


It takes way more than 5 seconds for the wave to get to the enemy core. On some maps, it won't even make it out of his base in 5 seconds so I disagree with the channel time

Also, depends when are you gonna start that 10 second timer?
Globe of Annihilation is on a 10 second CD. So that means boom, 1 wave dead, 10 seconds later, boom another wave dead using 2 charges of his 20 second Black Pool charge timer
3 waves is not doable for Azmodan admittedly, but the Cooldown of his Black Pool/Globe of Annihilation combo is off CD a lot faster than Lava Wave
Lave Wave shouldn't be granting XP imo unless he's near the minions when they die. The ability is already strong enough as a general wave clear tool, it shouldn't also give him the ability to soak XP globally.
1) Halve exp gained from Lava Wave. I would hesitate removing it altogether- it may have the side effect of denying your team experience overall.

2) Damage ramp-up at the beginning. Keep the cast instant but make it so if the enemy is at your core they won't be insta-gibbed.

3) Change the level 20 heroic to something else other than getting an extra charge. You are either casting it on cooldown and thus all the talent does is give you a free cast the moment you hit 20, or you are sitting on it constantly.
I've played against him a bit and while he can be annoying, most of his damage is quite easily dodged. If you can't avoid Lava Wave, then you're blind/deaf (no worries, most people I meet never look at the minimap and are surprised by this coming at them from miles away).

That said, Lunara destroys him. I thought she would, tried it and she can just kite him for days and put heavy damage on him while dodging anything he throws at her.
My initial assessment is that Lave Wave is going to need some sort of nerf. I wouldn't change too much else to start with because it is hard to say whether his base kit is a bit too strong without normalizing Lava Wave. I suspect that some numbers can be lowered a bit, but nothing drastic.

The problem is that Lava Wave is just does too much and has no counter play. I see people saying that "you should just dodge otherwise you deserve to die." This largely misses the point, but even on its own terms; it is wrong. Having to split the lane can cause awkward team separation giving the advantage to Rags team regardless of whether it hits a hero. Add to that the multiple wave clear, exp, merc camp shut downs, and global use, and what you have is an extremely versatile ultimate. Alot of specialists viability relies on the split attention that teams have to give in order to clear the waves that they build up. The cooldown is going to have to be brought up, and possible have a ramp up in terms of damage where it doesn't reach its full potential until after it exits your own base in order to avoid core team wipes

The reason I argue that his base kit shouldn't be touched is that Rags team often enjoys a significant exp and positioning bonus as a result of Lava Wave. So its hard to say if his base kit abilities are are strong, or just enjoying a level advantage. Pointing to a 55% Sulfaras win rage as opposed to 65% Lava Wave isn't a good comparison because anyone semi experienced is taking Lava Wave, so usually the less meta inclined, and often sub par, players are taking Sulfaras, as indicated by a less than 25% pick rate of Sulfaras over Lava; which will naturally result in a lower winrate for that ultimate.....though note it is still well above 50%.

Overall love the design of a well rounded assassin (though I think he should be classified as a Warrior) who lacks CC, but he brings just a bit too much to the table at the moment. Obviously giving it a bit of time to get a good idea of what needs to be done is prudent, but I think anyone with a finger on the pulse of the meta knows that changes are inevitable...which I should say is going to be natural when you make a character that is significantly different to more standard herores. One parting suggestion that I have seen nowhere else: consider raising his mana costs rather than bringing down the damage, making constant ability use more punishing might be a viable route.

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