Reddit now do believe in MMR Hell

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even Grubby who was high master in every season, got demotion match to be placed in platinum
Yeah somthing is fishy this season. I hit master in all of the 3 seasons and rank 1 before that now im in diamond 5 cus my placements went afk, afk, leaver, flamer.
I dont mean i never got those before but not in all of my games at least, i still managed to win 3 games out of 10, one with a bot and another with an afk in spawn. Dont know how tge rest of the season will go...

Yeah and also i reached my d5 promo fast then Bliuz gave me a greymane who were silent at draft, his game loaded like a slug then he got disconnected after the loading and never came back so that was fun..
What really needs too happen is a complete reset, every one starts bronze 5, no placments. Yes, it will suck for a month, but it will be better then it is now. Right now a gold player can smurf too 100% win rate over, 50 games, play ai til they have 14 too 5, lose all 10 of thier placments and still get low diamond high plat... that is a joke
If it really takes you hundreds of games to rank up, the odds are you are not as high level player as you thought. Of course I'm not the best person to talk since I know I get placed d3 with 500 points every season and my favored adjustment is over 50 points so I could rank up for while even with ~40% win-rate which is rather ridiculous.

Plenty of the GMs really never deserved that title. By that I mean the early birds who got lucky and got master(which gave them immediate GM) but could never retain that title. In all honesty I really wish they only gave the GM portrait to those who end the season with that rank(heck even I could consider using one and feel like a special snowflake then!).

The rank system does have plenty of problems but as for MMR Hell, that does not exist. That's just what baddies tell themselves thinking they are clearly at least master material if not even pro level. Plenty of Bronze to master/GM challenges have been done live on stream that prove MMR hell not to exist.
It's funny how post like this were downvoted like crazy not long ago, and now it's upvoted. :)

03/23/2017 01:06 PMPosted by TAB
What really needs too happen is a complete reset, every one starts bronze 5, no placments.


If this happen i won't play ranked ever again. How you expect good people to get out of bronze when they will play with other bronze (real ones this time) players?
As long as they use the Win/Loss ratio for MMR, this will keep on.

I wrote it several time in these Forums. It doesn't matter what anyone think, if they downvote or don't agree.

You can't rate a player based on Defeat or Victory. This doesn't exist in Sports. And there's no reason why it should exist in e-sports.

You can't say that a 300 APM, max reaction time, 10 kills, 25 takedowns, 0 death, 120k hero damage, 15k xp contribution guy belongs to the Silver League because his teammates fed and failed.

When you do, then people will complain as stated by the OP.

PS: Here's an example on how you rate a Player:

https://www.profootballfocus.com/draft-ranking-the-top-10-te-draft-prospects/

I understand that Trolls and Devs and Mods don't get that. But how come anyone suggesting that they have even 1 single IQ can't see that is incredible.
03/23/2017 01:09 PMPosted by Paulo
It's funny how post like this were downvoted like crazy not long ago, and now it's upvoted. :)

03/23/2017 01:06 PMPosted by TAB
What really needs too happen is a complete reset, every one starts bronze 5, no placments.


If this happen i won't play ranked ever again. How you expect good people to get out of bronze when they will play with other bronze (real ones this time) players?
the point is that it will remove any earlier mmr boosts. I just finished placments on my main smurf wjth~ 2k hero league games... I went 10-0. Died once, got d3... during those 10 games, eith on my team or the other. 7 players had 10+ deathes, 16 had 5+. All of them were diamond or better. Please tell me, how they belonged in diamond? Had a jaina with 4k hero damage and 11 deaths. Now you can say, maybe they had a bad game, only all of thier deaths were from flat out starting fights(not talking poke with q, but stepping up) always in front of eithet myself(etc) or our anub. After the 3rd time we stopped trying too save her. Only won because, of a late game wipe thanks to qn rng boss tornado that put thier trall and lucio into a boss slam.

I have no doubt half of diamond and plat will be gold or silver if we do a reset.
03/23/2017 01:06 PMPosted by TAB
What really needs too happen is a complete reset, every one starts bronze 5, no placments. Yes, it will suck for a month, but it will be better then it is now. Right now a gold player can smurf too 100% win rate over, 50 games, play ai til they have 14 too 5, lose all 10 of thier placments and still get low diamond high plat... that is a joke


I disagree about a full reset, but placement matches are probably no longer a necessity to populate the brackets. All new HL accounts should definitely start in bronze or silver, or maybe gold if they have exceptionally good records in QM/UD.

Hell, I made it to rank 20 in the preseason back when I had no clue what I was doing in the game (no clue about the meta, absolutely no map awareness, no understanding of what was happening outside of my screen, could barely tell the difference between maps, didn't know the best talents to pick...).

I just kept picking Uther over and over again regardless of my draft position or my groups comp, and quickly went on a massive losing streak until I achieved the rank I probably should have been placed at originally (somewhere in the mid 30s).

When I see some folks in ranked nowadays, I get the feeling I'm playing a game with myself from 2 years ago. New players who placed too high, and bad players on smurf accounts who don't understand they're nowhere near as good as they think they are.

So yes, I agree there should either be a concrete starting point for new accounts in HL or at the very least, a more restrictive ceiling for how high they CAN place. I think any rational person would agree that D3 is *much* too high for a fresh account.
03/23/2017 01:11 PMPosted by nitefox
As long as they use the Win/Loss ratio for MMR, this will keep on.

I wrote it several time in these Forums. It doesn't matter what anyone think, if they downvote or don't agree.

You can't rate a player based on Defeat or Victory. This doesn't exist in Sports. And there's no reason why it should exist in e-sports.

You can't say that a 300 APM, max reaction time, 10 kills, 25 takedowns, 0 death, 120k hero damage, 15k xp contribution guy belongs to the Silver League because his teammates fed and failed.

When you do, then people will complain as stated by the OP.

PS: Here's an example on how you rate a Player:

https://www.profootballfocus.com/draft-ranking-the-top-10-te-draft-prospects/

I understand that Trolls and Devs and Mods don't get that. But how come anyone suggesting that they have even 1 single IQ can't see that is incredible.


Well said, nitefox. I think KiloMeda and MattSax had a lot of great points too!

I have a question for those that are continuing to defend the integrity of the current MMR system (chogosu, DarkAngel, Noir):

If your own personal experience, plus the endless litany of complaints on these forums, plus now additional testimony from GM / Master level players is not enough - then what WOULD it take for you accept the possibility that there are serious flaws with the current system and that an "MMR Hell" is real?

From my perspective, I've played this game for about a year and leveled almost every hero to 5. My MMR is thus pretty low considering I only recently started focusing on improvement and playing heroes I like. However, when I play those few Heroes I excel, and feel like my skill with them is far superior to the players I am matched with.

In Hero League, I've worked my way up from Silver 4 to Silver 1 over the last two seasons, and now I'm trying to get into Gold. However I continue to have the following obstacles:

1. The usual draft trolls, AFK'ers, and crybabies that bring down my win percentage or throw games altogether.
2. Being matched with players with less than 200 games played (likely from the recent WoW crossover initiative), who have no knowledge of meta and the minimum requirements met for even playing in Hero League.
3. Being matched with players who lack basic fundamental knowledge of the game (laning, objectives, hero roles).

In Hero League I have about a 55% win rate, and let's say I am in Silver 1 and actually belong in Gold 1. That means I need to play ~250 games, and deal with all of the above frustration along the way, in order to move up from Silver 1 to Gold 1 where I belong.

Now, I don't exactly have a lot of time to play this game (maybe 2-3 games per day). So it would take me about 3 months to play those 250 games and rank up to where I belong - an amount of time which is The entire ranked season!!!. Isn't that the purpose of the placement games in the first place - to PLACE me in the league where I belong so I can actually enjoy the game?

I understand (and agree!) that if you are truly skilled at this game you will rank up to where you belong, eventually. My argument is simply that with the current system, it is such a painful and arduous process that for someone like me it is almost not worth it.
Want to know why? Because all the people who complain about matchmaking were ignored and critized by the fanbois and are starting to leave. the "you aren't as good as you think you are and I don't see these trolls" are not starting to be more often than not paired with these trolls because all the people who got tired of the matchmaking have left.
03/23/2017 02:19 PMPosted by Orochimaru
I have a question for those that are continuing to defend the integrity of the current MMR system (chogosu, DarkAngel, Noir):

If your own personal experience, plus the endless litany of complaints on these forums, plus now additional testimony from GM / Master level players is not enough - then what WOULD it take for you accept the possibility that there are serious flaws with the current system and that an "MMR Hell" is real?


I'm not defending the system, I think it is garbage. For example hard MMR reset should have happened ages ago but we would also need plenty of other changes to the system to make it good as hard reset as standalone would fix nothing.
It's the MMR Hell concept that I find utterly ridiculous. I have played a silver 4 account to plat 3 and I didn't find it particularly hard(agreement was for 2 full leagues). He was complaining about same thing, about how all the bad players were in his games and AFKS and trolls and all the crap made it impossible to climb. Did I see things like that? Sure, I see that even in high level games at times. It happens in both teams.
Quite frankly at low level games like those it's much much easier to carry. Say "hi" in each draft just to get them to reply so you can check their profiles and start forming decent comps because those people won't know how to. Shot call in game, people usually learn rotations quite fast, tell them who/when to capture those camps. Try to play heroes that can make impact by themselves, preferably don't have to rely too much on others and if possible can do multitude of things. The reason I don't believe in MMR Hell is that I've "tried" it and felt complete BS in reality and on concept level. Most players simply think they are much higher level than they actually are and keep finding excuses for not being able to reach "their" level. For money I could boost your account and I doubt I would have much difficulty doing so as long as you are NA or EU so the ping won't get too crazy.
I wasn't fond of MMR being based off of QM games in the first hero league. So those that tested builds against other players and heroes against other players were punished. But MMR hell does in a form exist.

"Main account" was carried by a Zeratul attacking the enemy core and was placed with similar others to a bronze last season but smurf account is plat 1... Same player different ranking. You can call it the "!@#$ ranks" but it doesn't deny the problem exists. The system has about as much RNG as Guldan's Ult. It can be frustrating and it is possible that a GMaster may never get to GM again in a season based off of RNG just as it is possible to reach it quickly. MMR is #'s based, doesn't mean the peoples intention or emotions will be rational in the duration of your game play.
03/23/2017 01:09 PMPosted by Paulo
It's funny how post like this were downvoted like crazy not long ago, and now it's upvoted. :)

03/23/2017 01:06 PMPosted by TAB
What really needs too happen is a complete reset, every one starts bronze 5, no placments.


If this happen i won't play ranked ever again. How you expect good people to get out of bronze when they will play with other bronze (real ones this time) players?


Good riddance then.

It would be easier to climb out of Bronze than today's MMR hell. At least Bronze is consistently bad. There's more bronze players in the game than Master so the odds of you being the best player in the game are higher than you being the best one in a D3 game.

All the other ranks would finally have meaning. HotS is like the only game of its type where getting Gold is an insult. Or even Diamond isn't that great either. There is no proper climb when the starting place for accounts already at the end of their journey.

Getting Silver should be a proud moment. Hey at least I climbed out of Bronze. Gold same thing. Now it's "Well I got on a losing streak and instead of getting plat or diamond I fell here".
03/23/2017 03:08 PMPosted by Noir
03/23/2017 02:19 PMPosted by Orochimaru
I have a question for those that are continuing to defend the integrity of the current MMR system (chogosu, DarkAngel, Noir):

If your own personal experience, plus the endless litany of complaints on these forums, plus now additional testimony from GM / Master level players is not enough - then what WOULD it take for you accept the possibility that there are serious flaws with the current system and that an "MMR Hell" is real?


I'm not defending the system, I think it is garbage. For example hard MMR reset should have happened ages ago but we would also need plenty of other changes to the system to make it good as hard reset as standalone would fix nothing.
It's the MMR Hell concept that I find utterly ridiculous. I have played a silver 4 account to plat 3 and I didn't find it particularly hard(agreement was for 2 full leagues). He was complaining about same thing, about how all the bad players were in his games and AFKS and trolls and all the crap made it impossible to climb. Did I see things like that? Sure, I see that even in high level games at times. It happens in both teams.
Quite frankly at low level games like those it's much much easier to carry. Say "hi" in each draft just to get them to reply so you can check their profiles and start forming decent comps because those people won't know how to. Shot call in game, people usually learn rotations quite fast, tell them who/when to capture those camps. Try to play heroes that can make impact by themselves, preferably don't have to rely too much on others and if possible can do multitude of things. The reason I don't believe in MMR Hell is that I've "tried" it and felt complete BS in reality and on concept level. Most players simply think they are much higher level than they actually are and keep finding excuses for not being able to reach "their" level. For money I could boost your account and I doubt I would have much difficulty doing so as long as you are NA or EU so the ping won't get too crazy.
Congratulations, you're a MMR hell believer!
I have never been in Platinum though
03/23/2017 12:59 PMPosted by Ljere
even Grubby who was high master in every season, got demotion match to be placed in platinum


Source?
03/23/2017 04:39 PMPosted by Lepo
03/23/2017 12:59 PMPosted by Ljere
even Grubby who was high master in every season, got demotion match to be placed in platinum


Source?


You dont watch grubby do you?
03/23/2017 02:31 PMPosted by Geoxyx
Want to know why? Because all the people who complain about matchmaking were ignored and critized by the fanbois and are starting to leave. the "you aren't as good as you think you are and I don't see these trolls" are not starting to be more often than not paired with these trolls because all the people who got tired of the matchmaking have left.

since alpha mate...since alpha...i played since alpha and saw good feedback being ignored and get full of hate by fanboy..they left and-
the game was shaped by the fanboy with all these useless feedback like "kael skin look bad" instead of real gameplay feedback, because they thought blizz already "perfect"

now, even blizz has already re-arranging the placement for many times in only like..2 years? these fanbois still saying things like "it's not the mmr, it's you"

now i just sit here and see what blizzard gonna do,
for 2 years they developed the game by hearing the fanbois and ignoring the real feedback,
and yesterday i waited for more than 2500 seconds to get a match, no sh*t
anyone even play this game now?
03/23/2017 03:08 PMPosted by Noir
03/23/2017 02:19 PMPosted by Orochimaru
I have a question for those that are continuing to defend the integrity of the current MMR system (chogosu, DarkAngel, Noir):

If your own personal experience, plus the endless litany of complaints on these forums, plus now additional testimony from GM / Master level players is not enough - then what WOULD it take for you accept the possibility that there are serious flaws with the current system and that an "MMR Hell" is real?


The reason I don't believe in MMR Hell is that I've "tried" it and felt complete BS in reality and on concept level. Most players simply think they are much higher level than they actually are and keep finding excuses for not being able to reach "their" level.


Got it - Thank you for your feedback.
Mmr is retarded. I'm glad the players who lucked into the high ranks or grinded hard are not safe from the !@#$ mm we all have been aware of since beginning this game. This will hopefully help blizzard staff get moving on a better system.

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