Daily reminder that Lava Wave sucks

General Discussion
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Are you suggesting taking sulfuras smash over lava wave on Braxis Holdout?


Lava Wave doesn't even really do that much damage to the zerg wave on braxis though. It does do some damage to it sure, but picking an ult to partially cope with a lost objective seems inferior to picking an ult that will help you win said objective in the first place. Ragnaros in his trait form already does huge damage to the zerg wave, you don't need lava wave too.


IMHO, one of the strongest reasons for playing rag is objective denial. Lava wave+MC on a Zerg wave is insanely strong.
04/12/2017 07:36 AMPosted by MiSsLeThaL
The fact I'm gettin' downvoted to oblivin for stating such a simple thing as pref Aegis over Resurrection explains a lot of things.


Most of the forum is bronze-gold. You quoted stats from master league/diamond which are maybe 5% of the population.

The average player will pick resurrection, divine storm, lava wave, mind control etc. because these things work in low rated games with nonexistent meta and hero importance.

Yes, they are incredibly bad against competent enemies but they work in low leagues.
Search for the last few weeks, not just "last 7 days". Lava Wave has better WR in Masters TL/HL. And FAR better WR in every other League TL/HL.
I love lava wave in certain circumstances. When you are up against hard pushing comps or comps that rely on gaining an xp advantage it comepletely cripple their team.
Lava wave is great for pushing with objectives like Angel/Demon or Punisher.

imo its also great on two lane maps due the pure simpleness that you can five man 1 lane and keep the other pushed with a simple click of a button.

Smash then again is far better for cap objectives where one is more often then not out of their lanes and what not.
Completely depend on your team and the enemy team. If they have a really mobile team that can easily escape SS, then don't go for it. Especially if your team lack CC to help you land it.

If you have good CC and the enemy team won't be able to escape it easily, then it is the best choice by far.
Smash is obviously the better ult and I don't even think it depends on the map.

In unorganized, non-competitive play, team fights are what win games in the end. This isn't always the case, but I would say 90% of QM/Unranked/HL games are decided by how the last few team fights go.

Lava Wave will obviously keep you in the game and it's not a bad choice, but if we're comparing the two straight up, Smash is clearly more value.

HOWEVER, that doesn't mean that you lose the game if you pick Lava Wave. People who think this way really need to get over themselves. There are a few characters in the game that legitimately only have one heroic if you're serious about actually competing, but Rag definitely isn't one of them.

Losing games because you're salty Rag picked Lava Wave is incredibly pathetic.

When your hero basically has 3 ultimates (Molten Core), it's really not the end of the world if they pick the slightly less value Lava Wave.
04/12/2017 06:31 AMPosted by DoomHammer
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*facepalm*


Are you suggesting taking sulfuras smash over lava wave on Braxis Holdout?


Lava Wave is an okay-pretty good choice on certain maps. (Braxis, Haunted Mines, Cursed Hollow, etc.)

Sulfurus is a good choice on every map.

Only map where I think you absolutely should just always go Lava Wave is Haunted Mines. Sulfurus doesn't have a ton of value because team fights on that map aren't as valuable.
04/12/2017 07:36 AMPosted by MiSsLeThaL
The fact I'm gettin' downvoted to oblivin for stating such a simple thing as pref Aegis over Resurrection explains a lot of things.


I actually agree with you, but I've seen my fair share of Chogall premades who utilise a Resurrect extremely efficiently on maps such as Dragonshire, where that late game value just goes off the scale.

While a lot of talents are debatable about how useful or vital they are, almost every ult in the game has the situation out there to exist where it will become useful. Not all the time, but enough to actually have players make a choice over it, or to plan for when and where to take it.

Except The Hunt on Illidan, I despise that ult :D
04/12/2017 11:26 PMPosted by Plergoth
I actually agree with you, but I've seen my fair share of Chogall premades who utilise a Resurrect extremely efficiently on maps such as Dragonshire, where that late game value just goes off the scale.


Honestly, late game should never even be a thing vs a CG comp on Dragonshire.

If you aren't utilizing the lack of a 5th body to out-soak and out-rotate them, then something is very wrong with your team.
04/12/2017 11:37 PMPosted by Lifeforms
04/12/2017 11:26 PMPosted by Plergoth
I actually agree with you, but I've seen my fair share of Chogall premades who utilise a Resurrect extremely efficiently on maps such as Dragonshire, where that late game value just goes off the scale.


Honestly, late game should never even be a thing vs a CG comp on Dragonshire.

If you aren't utilizing the lack of a 5th body to out-soak and out-rotate them, then something is very wrong with your team.


You overestimate quick match players' intelligence. People routinely lose vs chogall on Dragon Shire and even Braxxis Holdout despite the other team having one less body to hold the capture point.
People even lose vs Abathur on Braxxis before level 10, because they don't understand they can freely take both capture points due to being one body up at all times.
Don't be so cruel, lava wave is pretty useful on bronze, when ppl have 10 sec to gtfo after Ragnaros shouts: Die insects! and they still die to it XD They also can't soak more than one lane as 5 so lava wave can do the job...

btw I think everyone who downvoted OP is bronze/silver clueless carried ape. A good Ragnaros doesn't need lava to clear minion waves and can triple kill with sulfuras smash.
(I assume you are all that kind of Ragnaros who has 6 stacks of lvl 1 q at lvl 5, when you should already have finished that)

PS: Pls don't tell me lava can kill enemy players, because no one (higher than silver) ever died to lava wave.
04/12/2017 06:28 AMPosted by Werbs
funny with the nerf to sulfuras cool down, Lava wave is now doing better then sulfuras is in every map and skill level.

It has always been the case, even before the nerf Lava Wave was doing better according to HOTSLOGS stats.


Don't be so cruel, lava wave is pretty useful on bronze, when ppl have 10 sec to gtfo after Ragnaros shouts: Die insects! and they still die to it XD They also can't soak more than one lane as 5 so lava wave can do the job...

Lava Wave is not meant to do hero damage. It gives you free XP in a lane which can be great in large maps. It allows you to instantly depush a lane with no effort. Its pretty much like having an Aba or vikings in the game, Rag gets insane XP contrib with Lava Wave.

It also gives you a lot of momentum in defense against Bosses. It will force the ennemy team out giving you precious seconds to DPS the Boss for free, all the while clearing out minions which means all tower/fort damage will focus down the Boss. Great defensive tool.

On Temples it can also be great to force the ennemy team out of the lane, and on top or bot lane it will occasionnaly split the ennemy team in 2 or force them to stack up in the temple area.

And there is always the occasion where you can catch ennemies with it, it is not as uncommon as you think in Master league, when you cast it in the middle of a fight and a lot of !@#$ is going on sometimes players will get caught, and in any case its disrupting effect can cause enough chaos that your team will catch one ennemy trying to run away from it.

If Lava Wave was as bad you think it is, it would not have such a nice win % at all skill levels.
I think at higher levels, sulfuras smash is the better ult ~99% of the time.

Unlike at lower levels, games are largely decided by teamfights. Lava wave has almost no teamfight power except for some cheeky wombos like entomb, and maybe helping depush on some maps.

I find it very hard to pick LW. It undoubtedly has its place in lower levels and may even be better in many cases since they cant hit skillshots.

Also, on some maps like WJ where there are very long lanes, maybe LW has some use. The fact that it is balanced wr suggests there are times to use both, but most of the time sulf smash is better.

I personally never take LW. I like to wreck in teamfights and duels.
04/12/2017 11:37 PMPosted by Lifeforms
Honestly, late game should never even be a thing vs a CG comp on Dragonshire.

If you aren't utilizing the lack of a 5th body to out-soak and out-rotate them, then something is very wrong with your team.


Yep true, I've only seen Cho'gall once or twice in HL this season, but in QM it's a bit more common to have comps for it, and it's always hard to try and explain outsoaking and rotations in Plat half the time let alone in QM ):
04/13/2017 07:17 AMPosted by Flammy
It also gives you a lot of momentum in defense against Bosses. It will force the ennemy team out giving you precious seconds to DPS the Boss for free, all the while clearing out minions which means all tower/fort damage will focus down the Boss. Great defensive tool.

D!!!
What I find interesting about Ragnaros' ultimates is that they are less map dependent and more team dependent, thanks to Molten Core.

For example, while Lava Wave does help on Braxis if your enemy team gets a big zerg wave, it's not going to wipe that wave completely out, and if you're good with your basic abilities and the MC, you can successfully defend a fort against a full wave without even losing front towers.

In general I prefer to reserve a Lava Wave pick for when I want to counter a strong push hero like Abathur or Lost Vikings by sweeping a lane clear of minions so my own dudes can pressure their forts. It's also a good choice when I have some strong CC on my team who can help lock enemy heroes in the path of the wave, for maximum benefit. Then again, that's also a fantastic setup for a Sulphuras Smash if they're all clustered together, like say in a Mosh Pit - and wouldn't require the open lane either.

TL;DR - Which ultimate you choose is up to you. Telling other players they should lock into one choice or the other just because you said so is both childish and silly. Play what you want and get good at that.
It just depends on the map and team comps, which is like pretty much every other ultimate.
Just because most of the time going Sulfurous Smash is the better choice for your team does not mean Lava Wave sucks.

This says more about Sulfurous smash and just how good it is for team fights than any thing about Lava Wave. Even if you do pick Lava Wave it is still an incredible ultimate and won't go to waste. It's just that Rag has such good wave clear in his base kit that often times, you can get away with not taking Lava Wave and still be in a great spot.

It's interesting because Lava Wave can give you more options on how you play with out being so bad it's an auto lose.
I think good players can find the right time and use for both of his ultimates. I think if you refuse to use one completely......you are limiting your personal ability with Rag. I can use either ultimate to devastating effect if used at the right time.

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