Huge Average MMR difference in QM.

General Discussion
Why I am matched against teams with 500-600 average MMR difference? Is the player base so low right now that you have to resort to this? Not very fun when I've been stuck in bronze mmr for weeks because I get matched with clowns.

Case in point:
https://www.hotslogs.com/Player/MatchSummaryContainer?ReplayID=113774020

I'm 1600 mmr in this game. Matched against two 3400's. Let's not mention we have Abathur and Azmodan in Braxis. Their team has over 600 average mmr more than our team.

https://www.hotslogs.com/Player/MatchSummaryContainer?ReplayID=113888090

Again 1600 MMR, wanted to try Butcher, get matched against a 3500 MMR and two 2700 MMR's.

https://www.hotslogs.com/Player/MatchSummaryContainer?ReplayID=114408285

1600 MMR. Matched against a 2900 and 2700 MMR. Somehow we won this one.

This is just 3 examples I managed to find after checking my HOTSlog because of extreme frustration. I know 25 games are a small sample, I only started posting my replays yesterday but I have over 100 games played.

If you check the stats you can see that for most of these games I managed to pull my own weight, often being held back by REALLY bad players. Is this the infamous forced 50% win rate?
A little MMR variation between the players is not the end of the world. Hotslogs is/can be really inaccurate so there is that. Do you really look up all the players MMR after each game to see if it was a "fair" match? o.O
QM is an unbalanced mode anyway because of random map and hero composition so i guess this little MMR difference is only a small piece of the cake. In QM people do a lot of stupid stuff and try new things out so you should really not care that much about what MMR other players have in QM. It's not representative..

Everybody looses some games because of bad teammates, this is just normal when you play a team game with new random strangers from the internet every match.
Chances are always bigger that the enemy team will have more of them because you are always 20% of your team. You can make a difference and abuse the bad players of the enemy team! Just because your team members look really bad to you doesn't mean you should be placed higher automatically so you are not "held back". You can't judge a players skill overall by looking at him in one QM game.

Focus on your self and how you can be better instead of looking up everyones hotslogs mmr..
06/21/2017 01:54 AMPosted by Creeper
A little MMR variation between the players is not the end of the world.


Getting matched against players nearly 2000 MMR higher than me, you call that a "little MMR variation"?

06/21/2017 01:54 AMPosted by Creeper
Do you really look up all the players MMR after each game to see if it was a "fair" match? o.O


No, I started checking HOTslog only a few days ago after a series of defeats, where I felt I was being matched with mediocre teammates against what seemed like competent enemies.

06/21/2017 01:54 AMPosted by Creeper
Focus on your self and how you can be better instead of looking up everyones hotslogs mmr..


This really doesn't bring anything to the conversation, I'm trying to understand why Matchmaker would allow such a disparity. I remember those specific matches and they were not good or fun games in any way.
Getting matched against players nearly 2000 MMR higher than me, you call that a "little MMR variation"?


Again, MMR is not accurate on hotslogs.
The team average MMR should be the same. It's not you vs. a player with 2000 more mmr. Maybe this guy with a much higher mmr was queuing with a really low mmr friend?
It's QM. The MMR is all over the place because the queue is quick.

HL queue takes so much longer because it's trying to find more equal MMR.
06/21/2017 02:19 AMPosted by Creeper
Getting matched against players nearly 2000 MMR higher than me, you call that a "little MMR variation"?


Again, MMR is not accurate on hotslogs.
The team average MMR should be the same. It's not you vs. a player with 2000 more mmr. Maybe this guy with a much higher mmr was queuing with a really low mmr friend?


From what I understand the site is reliable enough for MMR purposes. I take it you didn't really check the replays? There is a 600 average MMR difference between both teams in the first replay. I don't consider "the same" or fair in anyway.
06/21/2017 02:25 AMPosted by PlatinumPOS
It's QM. The MMR is all over the place because the queue is quick.

HL queue takes so much longer because it's trying to find more equal MMR.


And how is one supposed to get enough experience with heroes to participate in HL when you get these lopsided, frustrating matches? And by the way, the queue is not quick, even for QM. I consistently wait over 250s to get these terrible matches. And now that I think about it most of them aren't really "matches" after all. Always a stomp on one side or another, so I guess we should call it "long stomp".
Team average is roughly the same most of the time, but the individual MMR difference is huge.

I'm regularly matched with people that have 500+ MMR less than I have.

And from my experience hotslogs is pretty accurate. I upload all replays and I study them on hotslogs. Almost always the obvious potato in the team is the lowest MMR guy.

Which is exactly why I'm looking for full party play, it's not worth to tolerate this MM.
06/21/2017 02:31 AMPosted by ClaudeJulien
06/21/2017 02:25 AMPosted by PlatinumPOS
It's QM. The MMR is all over the place because the queue is quick.

HL queue takes so much longer because it's trying to find more equal MMR.


And how is one supposed to get enough experience with heroes to participate in HL when you get these lopsided, frustrating matches? And by the way, the queue is not quick, even for QM. I consistently wait over 250s to get these terrible matches. And now that I think about it most of them aren't really "matches" after all. Always a stomp on one side or another, so I guess we should call it "long stomp".
You get experience whether you win or lose . . . in all game modes. I'm surprised if you haven't noticed this.

If you're talking about actual, real experience though, many people would say that losses give you the best. You can learn a lot more from your losses than your wins.

And perhaps you're playing at weird times? My QM queue is always pretty . . . quick.
600 (inaccurate) MMR difference between the two teams is nothing i would complain about.
It's also in this games nature that games snowball fast if the winning team is playing smart enough to not let a comeback happen. It happens in professional games too, team A stomps team B in game one but in game two it's the other way around (because different map/heroes/strategy). This just means that it hasn't necessarily something to do with the difference in player skill (mmr)
What's really the definition of a stomp/loopsided match? It's obvious when it's extreme but at one point you can't really tell if it was a stomp or not.

You could play unranked draft (it has less requirements i think than HL) to practice for HL. I would recommend playing QM with friends/premades.
06/21/2017 02:47 AMPosted by chatnick
I'm regularly matched with people that have 500+ MMR less than I have.


Same here. There just aren't enough people in the system to queue with. At a certain point you just gotta queue with friends (or go play another game).
06/21/2017 02:48 AMPosted by PlatinumPOS
06/21/2017 02:31 AMPosted by ClaudeJulien
...

And how is one supposed to get enough experience with heroes to participate in HL when you get these lopsided, frustrating matches? And by the way, the queue is not quick, even for QM. I consistently wait over 250s to get these terrible matches. And now that I think about it most of them aren't really "matches" after all. Always a stomp on one side or another, so I guess we should call it "long stomp".
You get experience whether you win or lose . . . in all game modes. I'm surprised if you haven't noticed this.

If you're talking about actual, real experience though, many people would say that losses give you the best. You can learn a lot more from your losses than your wins.

And perhaps you're playing at weird times? My QM queue is always pretty . . . quick.


You get zero experience from a stomp like what most games are in QM. None at all. One game I was trying to learn the butcher, got matched against people 2k MMR higher than me... against a comp that countered me. An utter stomp that lasted 15 mins and where you don't even reach level 20. You don't learn much from that.
06/21/2017 01:32 AMPosted by ClaudeJulien
Why I am matched against teams with 500-600 average MMR difference? Is the player base so low right now that you have to resort to this? Not very fun when I've been stuck in bronze mmr for weeks because I get matched with clowns.

Case in point:
https://www.hotslogs.com/Player/MatchSummaryContainer?ReplayID=113774020

Reason: Unranked modes (QM & unranked) are using so called 'new player protection'.

'New player protection' means that accounts with low amount of matches are mainly matched with/against each others and not with/against veteran accounts. Similarly veteran accounts are mainly matched with/against each others. When teams consisting both new accounts and veteran accounts play, they may be matched either with/against 'new accounts' pool or 'veteran accounts' pool.

High MMR accounts are a minority amongst 'new player accounts'. Most of the time when the matchmaker tries to find a team for them, it fails to find enough other high MMR accounts. As result high MMR accounts most of time play with teams that have huge MMR spreads until they leave the 'new player protection'

--

At the moment it seems that for an account to be considered a 'new player account' it needs to have less than ~250 QMs played. Many believed that the 'new player protection' only affected QM mode, but just 1 month ago BlizzTravis confirmed on Reddit that 'new player protection' affects all unranked modes (unknown if the counters & limits are shared between QM & unranked):

BlizzTravis: "That said, for unranked modes, new players are already in their own matchmaking pools. That’s mostly to protect their experience while they’re learning the game."
https://www.reddit.com/r/heroesofthestorm/comments/67acgw/hanamura_and_genji_live_qa/dgp2e78/

--

Some history (note that unranked mode also has new player protection, but unknown if its counters & limits are shared with QM counters & limits) :

Originally there was no 'beginner protection' in QM mode. Then Blizzard implemented it due people complaining that beginners are matched with veteran accounts. In the first iteration it was supposedly active for first ~100 QM matches. When Blizzard implemented the current matchmaker in December 2015 the 'beginner protection' was seemingly extended to first ~250 QM matches (this is based on player experiences). It is unknown has this amount since been reduced, but for example one of my accounts has currently ~153 QMs (3k to 3.5k MMR range - gone through several season soft resets) and is still in 'beginner protection' (when I play solo with this accounts I am matched with/against new player accounts, but when I am in arranged team with veteran accounts I am matched with/against veteran accounts). Also it seems that the 'beginner protection' does not consider matches played in other modes than QM (counters & limits may or may not be shared with unranked mode).
Match making is one problem, but I'd think you take the time to review the replay and treat this as a lesson on how to improve your game.

You always want to play against better competition to improve, and that is why pro-gamers move to Korea or play on Korean servers so they can get beat and learn from them.
06/21/2017 04:53 AMPosted by kts
06/21/2017 01:32 AMPosted by ClaudeJulien
Why I am matched against teams with 500-600 average MMR difference? Is the player base so low right now that you have to resort to this? Not very fun when I've been stuck in bronze mmr for weeks because I get matched with clowns.

Case in point:
https://www.hotslogs.com/Player/MatchSummaryContainer?ReplayID=113774020

Reason: Unranked modes (QM & unranked) are using so called 'new player protection'.

'New player protection' means that accounts with low amount of matches are mainly matched with/against each others and not with/against veteran accounts. Similarly veteran accounts are mainly matched with/against each others. When teams consisting both new accounts and veteran accounts play, they may be matched either with/against 'new accounts' pool or 'veteran accounts' pool.

High MMR accounts are a minority amongst 'new player accounts'. Most of the time when the matchmaker tries to find a team for them, it fails to find enough other high MMR accounts. As result high MMR accounts most of time play with teams that have huge MMR spreads until they leave the 'new player protection'

--

At the moment it seems that for an account to be considered a 'new player account' it needs to have less than ~250 QMs played. Many believed that the 'new player protection' only affected QM mode, but just 1 month ago BlizzTravis confirmed on Reddit that 'new player protection' affects all unranked modes (unknown if the counters & limits are shared between QM & unranked):

BlizzTravis: "That said, for unranked modes, new players are already in their own matchmaking pools. That’s mostly to protect their experience while they’re learning the game."
https://www.reddit.com/r/heroesofthestorm/comments/67acgw/hanamura_and_genji_live_qa/dgp2e78/

--

Some history (note that unranked mode also has new player protection, but unknown if its counters & limits are shared with QM counters & limits) :

Originally there was no 'beginner protection' in QM mode. Then Blizzard implemented it due people complaining that beginners are matched with veteran accounts. In the first iteration it was supposedly active for first ~100 QM matches. When Blizzard implemented the current matchmaker in December 2015 the 'beginner protection' was seemingly extended to first ~250 QM matches (this is based on player experiences). It is unknown has this amount since been reduced, but for example one of my accounts has currently ~153 QMs (3k to 3.5k MMR range - gone through several season soft resets) and is still in 'beginner protection' (when I play solo with this accounts I am matched with/against new player accounts, but when I am in arranged team with veteran accounts I am matched with/against veteran accounts). Also it seems that the 'beginner protection' does not consider matches played in other modes than QM (counters & limits may or may not be shared with unranked mode).


It's doing an awful job then. How are they protecting new players by matching them with people 2k mmr higher than them? Just trash.

06/21/2017 05:00 AMPosted by Xres
Match making is one problem, but I'd think you take the time to review the replay and treat this as a lesson on how to improve your game.

You always want to play against better competition to improve, and that is why pro-gamers move to Korea or play on Korean servers so they can get beat and learn from them.


I don't learn anything from watching our 12 death Johanna diving the enemy team another time. I don't mind playing against better opponents but at least give me competent team mates and not put me against people 2k mmr higher than me.
06/21/2017 04:53 AMPosted by kts

Reason: Unranked modes (QM & unranked) are using so called 'new player protection'.


UD doesn't have that NPP.
I'm assuming you upload pretty quickly after games? That game was uploaded at 9am UTC which is about 5 am EST I believe. Assuming you are on NA that's probably the biggest reason you're getting weird games. There aren't enough people playing to match closely.

Edit: I don't know how to watch the replays but I guarantee you there's something you could learn to do better while playing Abathur.
OP is correct in suspecting something fishy is going on. A lot of people I talk to are experiencing the fishiness, but prefer not to rock the boat, because every time someone crawls out of the bushes saying "you just suck, git good". And unless you're a streamer who records all your matches, it's very hard to prove that you're not simply "that bad".

This is not helping us addressing this issue at all. The issue that HotS matchmaking is broken, especially for veteran players with thousands of games on record.

What exactly is broken? Who the heck knows, it's closed source, no one knows for sure what code precisely is happening there.

All I know it's not fair that every time I win a few matches, I get matched with complete noobs with less than 100 games played, Russians (no offense, but there seems to be a trend there in the EU zone...), AFKers and flamers.

Please, I challenge you to show me a replay of someone soloing, carrying a team of complete noobs to victory, when communication isn't an option due to tilted flamers, language barrier etc. Pinging doesn't work, no one listens to it, and ping battles ensue where people abuse the ping to annoy you, so you have to mute it...

Show me these master players who can go solo against a team of "normal" silver or gold players. I've watched YT streams and Twitch for years, not found a single one. All I see are carefully selected with proper teams, everyone has a basic understanding of the game. This is not the HotS I and many others experience on the daily.

So, OP, you are perfectly justified in using HotsLogs to get behind what's happening. Statistics are your friend. If you've any chance to succeed in this, learn all the features of HotsLogs and get the little app that uploads your games automatically.

For example, you can find which heroes and builds you've the highest WR with on any given map, in any given comp. ONLY play those champs with high win rates. DON'T pick for the team, be selfish. These nabs don't know wth they're doing anyway.

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