Huge Average MMR difference in QM.

General Discussion
06/21/2017 05:17 AMPosted by chatnick
06/21/2017 04:53 AMPosted by kts

Reason: Unranked modes (QM & unranked) are using so called 'new player protection'.


UD doesn't have that NPP.

According to the lead game designer of this game (Travis) the unranked mode also has new player protection. I personally also thought the new player protection was limited to QM (I dont play unranked mode personally), but based on Travis both QM & unranked modes have this feature. But it is unknown for the community are their counters & limits separate, different or shared or was Travis incorrect:
06/21/2017 04:53 AMPosted by kts
At the moment it seems that for an account to be considered a 'new player account' it needs to have less than ~250 QMs played. Many believed that the 'new player protection' only affected QM mode, but just 1 month ago BlizzTravis confirmed on Reddit that 'new player protection' affects all unranked modes (unknown if the counters & limits are shared between QM & unranked):

BlizzTravis: "That said, for unranked modes, new players are already in their own matchmaking pools. That’s mostly to protect their experience while they’re learning the game."
https://www.reddit.com/r/heroesofthestorm/comments/67acgw/hanamura_and_genji_live_qa/dgp2e78/


Also the active population in different modes can affect matchmaking. During the last Blizzcon the QM was the most played mode and unranked the least played mode. It may be that the queue time active population for unranked is often so small that the matchmaker needs to mix new accounts with veteran accounts more often than in QM. Also one could suspect that the new players focus on QM instead of unranked.

Blizzcon mode distribution graph (note that unranked mode had not existed long at that time, it may have become more popular since):
http://heroes.blizzplanet.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/blizzcon-2016-heroes-state-of-the-game-panel-00027.jpg
https://www.hotslogs.com/Player/Profile?PlayerID=9742487

Check UD and QM match history. NPP clearly doesn't exist.
First off, don't pay too much attention to MMR spread from hotslogs. New players have infamously inaccurate and wildly fluctuating MMR.

Secondly, you'll encounter this problem in pretty much ANY game. You WILL get REALLY bad games once in awhile.

What I don't understand is how people do not get the simple fact that a matchmaker, MATCHES players from the pool of player that are available at the time. It doesn't create the perfect players out of thin air for you to get your perfect game.
06/21/2017 06:49 AMPosted by chatnick
https://www.hotslogs.com/Player/Profile?PlayerID=9742487

Check UD and QM match history. NPP clearly doesn't exist.

New player protection exists. Its a known thing and has also been confirmed several times by Blizzard.

Things are not black and white. The rules how NPP works are more blurry (Blizzard has not shared much info about the rules) and can be affected by several things such as are arranged teams involved, are you queuing during silent hours (low population), are you queuing during hero release weeks (overly large percentage of active population queuing as the new hero -> ignored matchmaking rules) or if someone has been searching over 10 minutes (matchmaker pushes those into games ignoring some matchmaking rules) and so on. The new player protection effects are at least very clear if you only solo queue QMs and have very high MMR.

Also we don't have much information how the NPP works if you play both QM & UD modes. Like said most of us believed it was only for QM until Travis informed last month it was all unranked modes. UD may have different rules (e.g. smaller limits) or the counters may be shared. Also community has no clear view if the limits are changed over time. The limit was something close to ~250 on Dec 2015 when the new matchmaker was introduced. They may have reduced it since. We could speculate that if the limit would have been reduced e.g. to 200 and the QM and UD counter would be shared you would already have passed that limit (you have ~220 QM and UD matches if all have been uploaded). My personal recent experiences come from account that has just passed 150 QMs and is still in the NPP, so it at least seems to be over 150 matches at this point.
06/21/2017 01:32 AMPosted by ClaudeJulien
Case in point:

HotS log MMR is inaccurate. For example it is missing most of my games including various wins and losses meaning that my MMR is way out. Before going on to analyse your match I will just link this.
https://www.hotslogs.com/Player/MatchHistory?PlayerID=8280969
Only 6 of 10 games are listed. Notice the insane MMR differences and gains as a result. On the Blizzard server the average team MMR of some of those matches was much closer than is shown because my MMR is wrong. Also I doubt the accuracy of their MMR algorithm to start with.

As for your game...
Both teams were full of noobs, with exception of you. The highest hero level on the enemy team was 6 and none of them were Mathael. The 2 high MMR players have highest hero levels of 8 and 11 (heroes not used in the match), much lower than yours. It is unlikely they really are that good, which leads me to believe that HotS log is showing their MMR much higher than it actually is, hence the difference is not as extreme as you think and they were appropriate matches.

What you should be complaining is why you were matched with total newbies. I mean literally they all were hero levels 1 and 2 which mean 0-1 game played with the hero. There is no way that will end well against people who have at least played 5-15 games with a hero.

I am guessing parties were involved on both teams? Parties really mess up match making and you can end up in the insane situation that you get matched against a team who's sum account level is lower than yours.

06/21/2017 01:32 AMPosted by ClaudeJulien
Again 1600 MMR, wanted to try Butcher, get matched against a 3500 MMR and two 2700 MMR's.

Skill wise teams are pretty balanced. You are new, but so is their Zagara.

Once again their "high MM"R player appears to be a newbie with account level around 100 and most heroes low level. Almost certain that HotS has inaccurate MMR for them.

06/21/2017 01:32 AMPosted by ClaudeJulien
1600 MMR. Matched against a 2900 and 2700 MMR. Somehow we won this one.

Once again their highest MMR player is a level ~100 newbie. Most heroes have only 1-2 games played in QM. As a guess, another case of HotSlog having wrong MMR. This is evident by how you could win, they enemy team was not as good as hotslog thinks.

In summary, HotS log MMR is trash. Hero league profile ranks are far more accurate indicator of skill, especially with over 50 games in 1 season. Have faith in Blizzard match making as chances are the match is closer than HotS log shows.
06/21/2017 07:31 AMPosted by Volun
First off, don't pay too much attention to MMR spread from hotslogs. New players have infamously inaccurate and wildly fluctuating MMR.

Secondly, you'll encounter this problem in pretty much ANY game. You WILL get REALLY bad games once in awhile.

What I don't understand is how people do not get the simple fact that a matchmaker, MATCHES players from the pool of player that are available at the time. It doesn't create the perfect players out of thin air for you to get your perfect game.


First off, acting smart like you're the only guy that knows MM puts teams together in real time in an online game. That's as low as you can get lmao

I'm sure it sounded nice in your head. But lol

Second, learn how to recognize new players. Newsflash, it's not about MMR but games played.

Now that I've educated you about what is going on, check that match history again and you will see that NPP doesn't exist in UD. Or maybe it does, but it's way under 50 games played, unlike QM.

06/21/2017 07:37 AMPosted by kts
06/21/2017 06:49 AMPosted by chatnick
https://www.hotslogs.com/Player/Profile?PlayerID=9742487

Check UD and QM match history. NPP clearly doesn't exist.

New player protection exists. Its a known thing and has also been confirmed several times by Blizzard.

Things are not black and white. The rules how NPP works are more blurry (Blizzard has not shared much info about the rules) and can be affected by several things such as are arranged teams involved, are you queuing during silent hours (low population), are you queuing during hero release weeks (overly large percentage of active population queuing as the new hero -> ignored matchmaking rules) or if someone has been searching over 10 minutes (matchmaker pushes those into games ignoring some matchmaking rules) and so on. The new player protection effects are at least very clear if you only solo queue QMs and have very high MMR.

Also we don't have much information how the NPP works if you play both QM & UD modes. Like said most of us believed it was only for QM until Travis informed last month it was all unranked modes. UD may have different rules (e.g. smaller limits) or the counters may be shared. Also community has no clear view if the limits are changed over time. The limit was something close to ~250 on Dec 2015 when the new matchmaker was introduced. They may have reduced it since. We could speculate that if the limit would have been reduced e.g. to 200 and the QM and UD counter would be shared you would already have passed that limit (you have ~220 QM and UD matches if all have been uploaded). My personal recent experiences come from account that has just passed 150 QMs and is still in the NPP, so it at least seems to be over 150 matches at this point.


Did you check the link or do you blindly take their word for it? It's not like they've been wrong/lied before.

Queue times are short, usually very close to the estimated time. Especially on non-ghost town hours, and I would never base anything on those hours anyway.

For QM it exists, but it doesn't exist in UD.

I have played 11 QM games before the first UD game. So even if there is any NPP in UD it has to be under that number, which is basically nothing, doesn't exist.

I've played for around ~6 hours of UD starting at ~3 PM. So the "what hours did you play" is immediately thrown out.
06/21/2017 08:28 AMPosted by chatnick
06/21/2017 07:31 AMPosted by Volun
First off, don't pay too much attention to MMR spread from hotslogs. New players have infamously inaccurate and wildly fluctuating MMR.

Secondly, you'll encounter this problem in pretty much ANY game. You WILL get REALLY bad games once in awhile.

What I don't understand is how people do not get the simple fact that a matchmaker, MATCHES players from the pool of player that are available at the time. It doesn't create the perfect players out of thin air for you to get your perfect game.


First off, acting smart like you're the only guy that knows MM puts teams together in real time in an online game. That's as low as you can get lmao

I'm sure it sounded nice in your head. But lol

Second, learn how to recognize new players. Newsflash, it's not about MMR but games played.

Now that I've educated you about what is going on, check that match history again and you will see that NPP doesn't exist in UD. Or maybe it does, but it's way under 50 games played, unlike QM.

06/21/2017 07:37 AMPosted by kts
...
New player protection exists. Its a known thing and has also been confirmed several times by Blizzard.

Things are not black and white. The rules how NPP works are more blurry (Blizzard has not shared much info about the rules) and can be affected by several things such as are arranged teams involved, are you queuing during silent hours (low population), are you queuing during hero release weeks (overly large percentage of active population queuing as the new hero -> ignored matchmaking rules) or if someone has been searching over 10 minutes (matchmaker pushes those into games ignoring some matchmaking rules) and so on. The new player protection effects are at least very clear if you only solo queue QMs and have very high MMR.

Also we don't have much information how the NPP works if you play both QM & UD modes. Like said most of us believed it was only for QM until Travis informed last month it was all unranked modes. UD may have different rules (e.g. smaller limits) or the counters may be shared. Also community has no clear view if the limits are changed over time. The limit was something close to ~250 on Dec 2015 when the new matchmaker was introduced. They may have reduced it since. We could speculate that if the limit would have been reduced e.g. to 200 and the QM and UD counter would be shared you would already have passed that limit (you have ~220 QM and UD matches if all have been uploaded). My personal recent experiences come from account that has just passed 150 QMs and is still in the NPP, so it at least seems to be over 150 matches at this point.


Did you check the link or do you blindly take their word for it? It's not like they've been wrong/lied before.

Queue times are short, usually very close to the estimated time. Especially on non-ghost town hours, and I would never base anything on those hours anyway.

For QM it exists, but it doesn't exist in UD.

I have played 11 QM games before the first UD game. So even if there is any NPP in UD it has to be under that number, which is basically nothing, doesn't exist.

I've played for around ~6 hours of UD starting at ~3 PM. So the "what hours did you play" is immediately thrown out.

You might want to take a bit time and think logically what others are saying before writing, and not immediately start insulting others.

Of course the queue time active player base affects matchmaking. As always matchmaker tries to create teams with similar MMRs with given ruleset. There are lots of rules for example for QM matchmaking (new player protection, melee rules, role rules, hero level rules, howto handle if arranged team chooses team compositions which would not be allowed by the ruleset and so on). The more time passes and suitable teams/opponents are not found it extends search range and after 10 minutes it ignores lots of rules. There are plenty of special situations where matchmaking rules may be ignored. Also the system may have bugs, which may cause the system behaving unintended ways in some situations.

Also you often contradict yourself in your responses. Sometimes you claim that new player protection does not exist at all for any mode based on your own experiences. Sometimes you claim it exists for QM and not for UD - again based on your own experiences. You claim that Blizzard is lying when they have confirmed the existence of the system. You are correct that things are never black and white (even if your own messages seem to often be black and white) but are up to interpretation. Blizzard often e.g. uses "PR language" that skews things when they tell about features, but Travis most of time seems to be very straightforward when answering in Reddit Q&As. Also when answering/writing things on fly people can make mistakes or their messages can become skewed (then again I find this still much better than to pass the message trough PR filters/personnel and it become even more skewed).
What you should be complaining is why you were matched with total newbies.
If you bother reading ANY of his posts that's exactly what he's complaining about.

06/21/2017 08:04 AMPosted by DrSuperGood
Have faith in Blizzard match making as chances are the match is closer than HotS log shows.
That's why they won't make public stats profiles or give any specific info on their actual matchmaking algorithm, right? KEK
06/21/2017 09:25 AMPosted by kts

You might want to take a bit time and think logically what others are saying before writing, and not immediately start insulting others.

Of course the queue time active player base affects matchmaking. As always matchmaker tries to create teams with similar MMRs with given ruleset. There are lots of rules for example for QM matchmaking (new player protection, melee rules, role rules, hero level rules, howto handle if arranged team chooses team compositions which would not be allowed by the ruleset and so on). The more time passes and suitable teams/opponents are not found it extends search range and after 10 minutes it ignores lots of rules. There are plenty of special situations where matchmaking rules may be ignored. Also the system may have bugs, which may cause the system behaving unintended ways in some situations.

Also you often contradict yourself in your responses. Sometimes you claim that new player protection does not exist at all for any mode based on your own experiences. Sometimes you claim it exists for QM and not for UD - again based on your own experiences. You claim that Blizzard is lying when they have confirmed the existence of the system. You are correct that things are never black and white (even if your own messages seem to often be black and white) but are up to interpretation. Blizzard often e.g. uses "PR language" that skews things when they tell about features, but Travis most of time seems to be very straightforward when answering in Reddit Q&As. Also when answering/writing things on fly people can make mistakes or their messages can become skewed (then again I find this still much better than to pass the message trough PR filters/personnel and it become even more skewed).


You should take a bit of time and read my posts more carefully. I never said or implied that NPP doesn't exist in any mode.
I actually wrote it very clearly, the fact that you still didn't take it properly is quite worrisome.

I don't need lectures on how MM works. You're insulting me (as did Volun, it's what he does, trying to look smart everywhere he pops up) by implying that I don't know such a trivial thing.

All the time that you wasted on your long posts and you still haven't seen the proof I've provided.
To me that means we have nothing to talk about.
*quick* match
not *balanced* match
The funniest thing is that I consistently get notices from the game after it ends that says "You have died 0 times, 3 times less than other people at your rank" or "You have 50% more hero damage than other people at your rank" but I keep getting matched with people that can't out-DPS me even when I play Brightwing or Morales.

Blizzard clearly knows that you're better at the game than others at your level yet the better you are, you keep getting matched with worse players just to balance the teams and only win/losses count towards rank.
06/21/2017 11:41 AMPosted by GuruEvi
The funniest thing is that I consistently get notices from the game after it ends that says "You have died 0 times, 3 times less than other people at your rank" or "You have 50% more hero damage than other people at your rank" but I keep getting matched with people that can't out-DPS me even when I play Brightwing or Morales.

Blizzard clearly knows that you're better at the game than others at your level yet the better you are, you keep getting matched with worse players just to balance the teams and only win/losses count towards rank.


If you were amazing you'd be Master
Lets answer Chatnick one more time even if it feels he is flame baiting and derailing the discussion from the original topic.

In the original topic the poster wondered why he experiences large MMR spreads inside both teams in his matches. He had low amount of matches played based on his Hotslogs account and thus the most logical reason for his experiences is simply the 'new player protection - NPP' feature. My original post provides more information about that problem:
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/heroes/topic/20756895903#post-13

06/21/2017 10:50 AMPosted by chatnick

You should take a bit of time and read my posts more carefully. I never said or implied that NPP doesn't exist in any mode.
I actually wrote it very clearly, the fact that you still didn't take it properly is quite worrisome.

Here Chatnick claims that NPP doesn't exist for neither QM nor UD:
06/21/2017 06:49 AMPosted by chatnick
https://www.hotslogs.com/Player/Profile?PlayerID=9742487

Check UD and QM match history. NPP clearly doesn't exist.

--
06/21/2017 10:50 AMPosted by chatnick

I don't need lectures on how MM works. You're insulting me (as did Volun, it's what he does, trying to look smart everywhere he pops up) by implying that I don't know such a trivial thing.

Matchmaking and matchmaking rules are not trivial things. Considerable part of the playerbase does not know basics how matchmaking works in Heroes (for example most posts in this thread did not suspect the most logical reason for the original poster's question - the NPP). It is far from 'personal insult towards Chatnick' to try to explain some special cases which may affect matchmaking and matchmaking rules. On the other hand e.g. following text from Chatnick towards Volyn mostly contains personal insults:
First off, acting smart like you're the only guy that knows MM puts teams together in real time in an online game. That's as low as you can get lmao

I'm sure it sounded nice in your head. But lol

--
06/21/2017 10:50 AMPosted by chatnick

All the time that you wasted on your long posts and you still haven't seen the proof I've provided.
To me that means we have nothing to talk about.

Chatnick has not provided adequate proof that there is no NPP for UD. Chatnick provided a link to his Hotslogs account that had combined 220 QM and unranked matches (I did check it along with data for several matches). In that same message (quote can be found earlier from this message) Chatnick also claimed that new player protection does not exist neither for QM nor UD.

We don't know at the moment how exactly NPP is supposed to work in combination of QM and UD. For example match amount limits for account to be considered 'veteran' may differ. Chatnick may have for example already surpassed the threshold and his account may be considered 'veteran' (or may not). It would be logical to to assume that when the conditions for 'veteran account' are fulfilled in any mode, the account is considered 'veteran' for all modes.

Also we don't know when the NPP implementation for UD happened. For QM there was originally no protection. As time has passed there has been at least two known iterations for adding the system to QM. The latter was Dec 2015 when the new matchmaker was implemented. There was no UD mode back then. UD was added June 2016. It is unknown did they add NPP for UD at the same time.

Many believed for a long time that there was no NPP implementation for UD - as pure speculation: maybe it indeed was the case and it was added later?

At the moment we know that the lead game designer Travis McGeathy has stated month ago on Reddit that the NPP system is for both QM & UD, but did not give any further details. Its existence for QM is obvious based on player experiences. But when was it implemented for UD and how it affects UD is still unknown. We don't know if the smaller UD playerbase affect its implementation (conditions potentially not met and thus some rules ignored) or is its implementation e.g. bugged? There is still not enough information to make claims that "Travis/Blizzard was wrong or lied" like Chatnick did earlier.

Link to the Reddit Q&A:
https://www.reddit.com/r/heroesofthestorm/comments/67acgw/hanamura_and_genji_live_qa/dgp2e78/
Dude, you took what I wrote the wrong way and you base all your nonsense on that.

I have pasted that link and said you should check QM and UD. By checking (which you obviously never did) you would realize that there is a NPP in QM but there is none in UD.

You're just one of those guys that goes to social colleges and likes to write huge paragraphs but in the end you bring nothing valuable.

I provided you the proof. You claiming it isn't adequate despite never looking at it tells me all I need to know. And I should've stopped responding to a guy like you way earlier.

An account with 11 QM and 1 vs AI is considered a veteran account?

Dude, you are the one that contradicts himself, it's very painful to even read your posts.
You also wouldn't say such a comical thing if you bothered to check the evidence presented.

I don't care about your Travis and what he said. I'm telling you what is happening in the reality and I have provided evidence.
His claim is obviously, logically and reasonably concluded not a proof of anything, when it doesn't happen in game.

You can call it lying or whatever, I don't care. I care about exact things.

Let me know when you've checked the evidence for real, and I will know if you did based on what you say, which has to be completely different than what you are spewing now.
If you check the evidence and still decide to keep your head in the sand, I'll know and I will never waste my time on you again lol
Its in the name.

QuickMode's purpose is to be fast. They prioritize speed of the queue above everything else it seems.

The chance of a game getting throw because of skill difference is way less of a factor than a game getting thrown because one team gets a reasonable comp and the other doesn't.

In fact, the queue used to at least match up roles - e.g. if one team has 2 supports, the other team has 2 supports. In the past week or so, i've noticed that isn't even happening consistently.
06/21/2017 10:50 AMPosted by chatnick
06/21/2017 09:25 AMPosted by kts

You might want to take a bit time and think logically what others are saying before writing, and not immediately start insulting others.

Of course the queue time active player base affects matchmaking. As always matchmaker tries to create teams with similar MMRs with given ruleset. There are lots of rules for example for QM matchmaking (new player protection, melee rules, role rules, hero level rules, howto handle if arranged team chooses team compositions which would not be allowed by the ruleset and so on). The more time passes and suitable teams/opponents are not found it extends search range and after 10 minutes it ignores lots of rules. There are plenty of special situations where matchmaking rules may be ignored. Also the system may have bugs, which may cause the system behaving unintended ways in some situations.

Also you often contradict yourself in your responses. Sometimes you claim that new player protection does not exist at all for any mode based on your own experiences. Sometimes you claim it exists for QM and not for UD - again based on your own experiences. You claim that Blizzard is lying when they have confirmed the existence of the system. You are correct that things are never black and white (even if your own messages seem to often be black and white) but are up to interpretation. Blizzard often e.g. uses "PR language" that skews things when they tell about features, but Travis most of time seems to be very straightforward when answering in Reddit Q&As. Also when answering/writing things on fly people can make mistakes or their messages can become skewed (then again I find this still much better than to pass the message trough PR filters/personnel and it become even more skewed).


You should take a bit of time and read my posts more carefully. I never said or implied that NPP doesn't exist in any mode.
I actually wrote it very clearly, the fact that you still didn't take it properly is quite worrisome.

I don't need lectures on how MM works. You're insulting me (as did Volun, it's what he does, trying to look smart everywhere he pops up) by implying that I don't know such a trivial thing.

All the time that you wasted on your long posts and you still haven't seen the proof I've provided.
To me that means we have nothing to talk about.


People can read your posts just fine lol. It's why you always get contradicted because you aren't smart enough to write let alone make a coherent argument. At the end of the day, most of what you said doesn't make sense. Fact is you can complain all you want, the matchmaker will totally screw up sometimes, and that will happen no matter what game you play.
06/21/2017 02:13 PMPosted by Volun
the matchmaker will totally screw up sometimes, and that will happen no matter what game you play.
And by sometimes you mean about 80% of matches.

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