Can we have somebody with mana burn spell?

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07/19/2017 01:38 PMPosted by Dreadnought
Some other people have already touched on this, but I think Mana Burn would be very problematic...


Is it because there is a lack of mana regeneration opportunities as well? There are very few instances i the game that a hero can give another hero mana regen.

*Malfurion - most obvious example, yet gives no special benifits to anyone besides KT who can increase his own mana pool. He also has Serenity (level 20 tranquility upgrade) but that has never been viable at high levels and the pro scene.

*Stukov - One Good Spread...(level 4) only gives mana if you spread it well, making many other situations useless which doesnt help when it is still overwhelmingly out competed by Vigorous Reuptake

*Medivh - Arcane Brilliance (level 20) its level 20, its decent, but that comes into play WAY late in the game, and while medivh's level 20 talent diversity is decent (unlike the rest of his extremely 1-directional kit) its hard for arcane to compete with the most dominant medivh's cheat.

Ok I may have sidetracked but why is the team so reserved in giving hero to Ally mana benifits?

There are even very few options for Hero to Self options, if there were more options out there would Hero to enemy (mana drains) options more likely exist?


Why would you add/change current things that are not needed as is just so you can add a mechanic to counter it?
^ That's exactly what I was wondering.
It becomes a mandatory pick to make the opponent's abilities feel useless.
Not to mention mana burn itself would be useless in the majority of situations, and in the ones where it'd be strong it'd completely negate your opponent's ability to do anything at all.
That's sounds like a recipe for boredom.

Instead of mana burn, I think I'd rather see a debuff put on the opponent.
It would likely last longer than silence, but instead of disabling the enemy's ability to use spells, it would add a risk to doing so. Such as each time you use an ability you take damage, or maybe abilities have longer cooldowns if used during that time.
This would have an element of choice for the opponent, unlike silence, but the higher duration would allow allies to push into enemies and pressure them to take risks where silence only really offers a short window to capitalize and brutalize someone.
07/19/2017 01:44 PMPosted by JRDruchii
07/19/2017 01:14 PMPosted by MattVi
Some other people have already touched on this, but I think Mana Burn would be very problematic in our game. It's basically a very unresponsive Silence (as it can take several uses to eliminate the target's mana pool), that lasts an impractically long time (likely 30+ seconds).

The result is that it feels extremely punishing for the enemy, and even the person doing the burning doesn't feel like they had a big impact most of the time. I greatly prefer Silence to accomplish that goal because it's really sharp and reliable (the moment I hit you, you're locked out of spells), but also not punishing beyond that initial window (after a few seconds of Silence I can play my hero again) - at least assuming you weren't killed during that time.


IDK, Mana burn targets mana management in a way that silience doesn't. Though mana management hasn't been a valued part of this game in a good while. Took me a month to realize Genji even has mana...

Yup, that was what I thought in the start of the idea. That mana management and and abillities that would have impact on it are almost non existent at the moment. Its one variable that havent been touched yet.

On the other hand I agree with the developer and others that it can go wierd and annoying really fast. Maybe some future mage character can be bit mana hungry and can have abillity to drain some mana from oponent and empower own spells while spending the mana stolen.
07/19/2017 01:46 PMPosted by DaelinT
Why would you add/change current things that are not needed as is just so you can add a mechanic to counter it?


Because its more tools to use.

I think people forget that a game merely provides tools, its the players that create the strategy and meta with the tools, and more tools means more ways to play the game, for the developer to come up with new ideas, for example, gul'dans rather weak talent path life steal could have a mana burn component to it, right now its not possible and adding a silence would be quite insane, but having more tools to use can open for more creativity for a developer to create different, interesting talents/heroes and for players to have additional ways to deal with enemy heroes.

Im not entirely convinced that mana burn is "Unfun" unlike with the consensus of reddit and the forums. The problem with bad mana burn mechanics is the lack of counterplay and even using the tool itself, as with in dota and most point and click abilities tend to have little individual play and counterplay and relies on the larger picture to be fun. In heroes you can individualize heroes, specc them into a unique way and there are options to improve existing abilities, like Gul'Dan you can simply run away to break the channel, but Gul'Dan can improve the range of it as an option, now do you have to have someone that can outrange that like genji or zeratul? or break it with a silence/stun?

I think mana burn can be a good thing as a tool that is better at long term fights compared to silence and can get auto attack heroes back into the meta as auto attack heroes like sgt hammer, raynor and zul'jin do not rely heavily on mana dependent abilities, but silences tend to kill them all the same as silence is bursty in nature, not long term.
Mana Burn would either be useless or completely stupid for all the wrong reasons.

For "Mana Burn" to be good, the fight either needs to last a long time, where you burn their resources and win the war of attrition, or if your opponent was already low on Mana and you prevent them from casting spells.

The point of Mana Burn is to deny enemies from casting spells. Not every Hero has Mana as well. Silence is a much more reliable way of countering spells from ever happening.

If fights don't last long enough, then Mana Burn is worthless. Great, you burned this hero's mana by 50%. He/She can still do his/her things. Whoops, you just wasted your skill.
07/19/2017 01:33 PMPosted by noname
And that's Blizzard for you... "Let's not punish players too much, let's hold them by their hands, protect them cherish them"...

Mana burn would be a great asset if they implement it correctly. Especially in the actual Meta where you can even get 2 supports.

A Hero with Mana Burn could punish an enemy support like Morales or Lucio.

They can give it to a Hero with utility mechanics like Medivh. Not really a specialist, not really a support, and tricky to play.

And it would definitely bring so much more diversity in the actual Meta which is only based on globals, stuns and supports.

------- Glad that a Blue responded and told himself what I would have mentioned anyway, which is: Blizzard is always shy to implement interesting drastic abilities.

And yet, they manage to put the most punishing "stealth" mechanic in any MOBA. Go figure.


Back in alpha I said that blizzard is taking a huge gamble with the "we're gonna make everybody feel special and make a pseudo-not-competitive-but-still-is game".
Only one character in DotA 2 has mana break and that's Anti-Mage, a hero that is incredibly difficult to play and often requires a 4 protect 1 setup where 3 supports and a strong midlaner buy enough time for him to get fat.

The mana break alone isn't enough to actually burn an excessive amount of mana: Anti-Mage is an incredibly fragile melee hero who needs to auto attack his opponents to burn mana -- the only time mana break becomes a threat is when AM farms enough gold to buy manta style which gives him 2 illusions which also benefit from mana break.

This mechanic would not work in HotS due to the fact that it is a different game and playstyle.

A talent like AM's ultimate "mana void" would be far more interesting -- a spell that damages the opponent 0.8 HP for every 1 mana missing and also does the same amount of damage in a small AoE around the target. Very high cooldown.
07/19/2017 01:14 PMPosted by MattVi
Some other people have already touched on this, but I think Mana Burn would be very problematic in our game. It's basically a very unresponsive Silence (as it can take several uses to eliminate the target's mana pool), that lasts an impractically long time (likely 30+ seconds).

The result is that it feels extremely punishing for the enemy, and even the person doing the burning doesn't feel like they had a big impact most of the time. I greatly prefer Silence to accomplish that goal because it's really sharp and reliable (the moment I hit you, you're locked out of spells), but also not punishing beyond that initial window (after a few seconds of Silence I can play my hero again) - at least assuming you weren't killed during that time.

I'm glad you guys are still against mana burn as a skill and talent. It definitely wouldn't be a fun mechanic and possibly too punishing against certain heroes as there isn't much defense against it.

With that said, there seems to be a lot of cool variety and ways Blizzard is bringing life into heroes from throughout their franchise and the important part is they're all unique, but there's heroes that are just born with attacking mana in their lore. I would be afraid if the only way we can represent that is through +magic armor or silence.

Has Blizzard looked at other ways into attacking mana? I feel there should be more variety that can lead to more exciting interactions between heroes.

i.e: a wc3 spellbreaker could reduce enemy mana pool by a percent with each attack for a small duration. The defender would feel the effects through the fight as spells would feel like they cost more but the reality would be they just have less mana to work with. This wouldn't have the downside mana burn as the defense doesn't require high number of mana regen but instead prevent the attacker from additional applications of debuff... either though finishing the fight before stacks get out of control, reducing the attack speed or having someone peel the attacker, a protection status to clear the debuff and so on. It could feel like the "executioner" talent for mana. It would be nice having multiple methods to fight healers or mages than just picking up a dive comp or cc comp and deleting them before anyone can respond.
07/19/2017 02:01 PMPosted by Dreadnought

Im not entirely convinced that mana burn is "Unfun" unlike with the consensus of reddit and the forums. The problem with bad mana burn mechanics is the lack of counterplay and even using the tool itself, as with in dota and most point and click abilities tend to have little individual play and counterplay and relies on the larger picture to be fun.


I very much agree with this but I'm worried its been written off as a tool in an effort to keep the game simple and streamline. The dev response was pretty telling in that expanding the tool box avalible to players doesn't appear to be valued over the overall 'short and sweet' MOBA experience hots delivers.

What about something that might increase current CDs of an enemy hero? Or something that targets the cd of short cd abilities making anything less than a 6sec cd add 6 sec to its current cd timer? Anything to help broaden the approach.
The idea is good but unfortunately because mana regeneration is barely non-existent, Blizzard would have to do another over-haul of the game. The heroes that depend on mana would become irrelevant and characters like Uther and Kharazim who require managing of their mana even more and would just become purposeless and would only be able to follow the mana regen build at all times as long as that particular hero would be in the game and even then, they would get burned as soon as their mana would come back as the CD would probably be shorter than any heroes ability to regenerate their mana.
07/19/2017 01:19 PMPosted by OrangeJuice
I quit WoW pvp because back when I played wow priests had an ability called Mana burn and it had no cooldown, only a 1 sec cast time.

The only way to avoid Mana burn was to hump pillars like crazy and it ruined the game for me.
I also quit playing WoW because of stuff like this. Their whole arena system (when it was introduced, anyway) was a lopsided disaster. It heavily favored some classes while making others almost entirely obsolete for competitive PvP. Really destroyed the fun in that game for me.
07/19/2017 02:42 PMPosted by PlatinumPOS
07/19/2017 01:19 PMPosted by OrangeJuice
I quit WoW pvp because back when I played wow priests had an ability called Mana burn and it had no cooldown, only a 1 sec cast time.

The only way to avoid Mana burn was to hump pillars like crazy and it ruined the game for me.
I also quit playing WoW because of stuff like this. Their whole arena system (when it was introduced, anyway) was a lopsided disaster. It heavily favored some classes while making others almost entirely obsolete for competitive PvP. Really destroyed the fun in that game for me.


Well WoW Arena was...weird and new, a competitive PvP system in an MMORPG (stress RPG part) was unheard of at the time, and you thought new 2014-2017 blizzard was slow? back then they were SUPER SLOW at changing anything as its generally blizzard's policy of "it will fix itself, if not will fix it...2 years down the line!"

Also the introduction of arena was great, and only the faults really started coming out near the end of the expansion when it really was getting figured out.
Forgot to add to my previous post:

Mana burn is a bad thing in PvP games like this. It works in an RTS like Warcraft 3 or Starcraft because draining one or a few units of mana is only hindering part of your entire force (which includes the rest of your army, buildings, worker units, economy, etc). Kael'thas siphoning mana from single units in WC3 is a lot different than Kael'thas siphoning mana from 1 hero in HotS. In HotS, that 1 hero is all somebody has.
Well, perhaps instead there could eventually be a hero with a Mana Steal mechanic? I think that could be pretty cool. A hero who has extreme Mana costs and sustains by stealing Mana from others
07/19/2017 02:52 PMPosted by HailFall
Well, perhaps instead there could eventually be a hero with a Mana Steal mechanic? I think that could be pretty cool. A hero who has extreme Mana costs and sustains by stealing Mana from others
This is exactly how Kael'thas worked in WC3, and they didn't include it in this game likely for the reasons I mentioned in the post above yours.
07/19/2017 02:52 PMPosted by HailFall
Well, perhaps instead there could eventually be a hero with a Mana Steal mechanic? I think that could be pretty cool. A hero who has extreme Mana costs and sustains by stealing Mana from others


Lol gul'dan does this by stealing health from himself or others O.o
Some time ago I made a hero concept about a discipline priest, based on the classic WoW priests. Basically, I think mana burn can work on a hero like that - who is all around centered on countering spellcasters and supporting allies. Here, I appreciate thoughts on the idea: https://us.battle.net/forums/en/heroes/topic/20755716618#post-1
The possibilities are huge and with some interesting talents, I think Mana burn can be an interesting spell.
I guess there's also the possibility of anti-mana... something like Overload in Heathstone that you afflict on your opponent.
It'd work by blocking mana of the target from the lower end of the mana pool rather than removing from the top like mana burn does, giving them a smaller pool to work with. But once it dissipates they have that mana available to them.
This is different from mana burn because blizzard can separately tweak the time before it starts dissipating, and the rate at which it does, thus the downtime or need for mana healing abilities, afflicted by it.
This also means it can accumulate much faster and still be fair, removing the need for extended battles before any result.
In a sense this is a silence that takes longer to build up, but can be allowed to last longer as a result.

I picture the rates like Kerrigan's shields where it can build up kind of quickly, but after a short time (3-4 seconds?) not having it reapplied it drops off very quickly. This means that using an escape ability to get out of range can be worthwhile for getting you back into the fight faster, unlike with standard mana burn.

Though I still prefer the debuffs I mentioned earlier I think.
It doesn't have a place in this game. Very few heroes have reliable tools to counter that, such as a talent option for tangibly heightened regen.

I agree with the blue in that silence is better, and it ends up being more tactical.
07/19/2017 03:13 PMPosted by Eninya
I agree with the blue in that silence is better, and it ends up being more tactical.

But not more strategic.

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