Can we have somebody with mana burn spell?

General Discussion
07/19/2017 02:01 PMPosted by Dreadnought
Im not entirely convinced that mana burn is "Unfun" unlike with the consensus of reddit and the forums.

This is probably a good opportunity to talk about what's meant by "unfun".

For starters, every negative effect you can be hit by in the game has an "unfun" component to it. It's not inherently fun to be stunned, slowed, silenced, or hooked, either. So why do we allow it? Because it can be really satisfying to do those things to other players, and creates lots of fun tools and opportunities for gameplay & counterplay. I think that's essentially what you're getting at with your post, and it's a totally valid argument.

However, any time we consider adding a new mechanic ("tool") to the game, we have to ask ourselves a very important question - Does the fun we're getting from adding this outweigh the frustration or "unfun" it causes?

And that, for me, is where Mana Burn falls short. If tuned fairly, it wouldn't be able to take a very large amount of mana in a single hit, so its impact is small. If its impact is small, it doesn't feel very rewarding to use. If it doesn't feel rewarding to use, then it's taking gameplay away from the enemy in exchange for only a mildly exciting outcome from the attacker's perspective. So at that point is it really adding more fun than it's taking away?

I'd say if anything we're excited to add more types of tools and counterplay to the game, but in this particular case I just don't think we'd get enough of a gameplay win to justify the downsides.

07/19/2017 02:49 PMPosted by PlatinumPOS
It works in an RTS like Warcraft 3 or Starcraft because draining one or a few units of mana is only hindering part of your entire force (which includes the rest of your army, buildings, worker units, economy, etc). Kael'thas siphoning mana from single units in WC3 is a lot different than Kael'thas siphoning mana from 1 hero in HotS. In HotS, that 1 hero is all somebody has.

This is a very good explanation of the issue. It's not like Mana Burn as a mechanic is bad in all games everywhere. It's just not a good fit for this game specifically.
i hear what your saying matt but i feel like that is a similar argument against poison(somthing already implemented). dont get me wrong i have nothing against poison but when you first poison somone it doesnt really feel like it does a whole lot in the beginning
the satisfation is when you see your poison spread around even if it doesnt look like much right now but eventually the people with poison on them are having a real problem staying alive.
manaburn could be fun like this, i think, if implemented in a similar way. its not about seeing results right now its about continuing to attack and seeing the enemy all out of mana eventually that really satisfies you
i think the biggest problem is that if you introduce mana burn you will need more ways to get mana return, and right now to only real person able to do that is malf
07/19/2017 04:21 PMPosted by Teeki
manaburn could be fun like this, i think, if implemented in a similar way. its not about seeing results right now its about continuing to attack and seeing the enemy all out of mana eventually that really satisfies you
i think the biggest problem is that if you introduce mana burn you will need more ways to get mana return, and right now to only real person able to do that is malf


Manaburn as effectively a DoT with some sort of condition (similar to, say, Azmodan's laser) might be interesting.

I'd say if anything we're excited to add more types of tools and counterplay to the game, but in this particular case I just don't think we'd get enough of a gameplay win to justify the downsides.


I look at something like mana burn and see it as a tool to help a team delay to the late game where their overall comp can carry them but I certainly understand why this isn't the way you would look to expand on those options.
i feel mana burn is just another way to indirectly nerf mages, as they would be hit the hardest by it, kael already has mana problems, while some people forget genji even has mana.
07/19/2017 01:14 PMPosted by MattVi
Some other people have already touched on this, but I think Mana Burn would be very problematic in our game. It's basically a very unresponsive Silence (as it can take several uses to eliminate the target's mana pool), that lasts an impractically long time (likely 30+ seconds).

The result is that it feels extremely punishing for the enemy, and even the person doing the burning doesn't feel like they had a big impact most of the time. I greatly prefer Silence to accomplish that goal because it's really sharp and reliable (the moment I hit you, you're locked out of spells), but also not punishing beyond that initial window (after a few seconds of Silence I can play my hero again) - at least assuming you weren't killed during that time.

There is ONE way I could see it work out, though; give Baal his Mana Rift as a heroic and make it a skill-shot that would burn a % of CURRENT mana pool and deal damage (or any other negative effect) based on the amount of the mana burned, or mana missing after the burn.
The reason why I could see it work in this case is because:
- Since it's a heroic, it's powerful effect can be justified, and can have a longer CD.
- In case there are not enough heroes with a mana pool on the enemy team, you simply pick the other heroic.
- Since it's a skill-shot, it can be dodged, so it has some counter-play.
- Because it burns a % of current mana, it is going to be REALLY hard to get the enemy mana to 0 and therefore ruin their fun completely, while giving the enemy chance of using their abilities first and therefore having less mana burned away from them (more counter-play).
- Since it has another negative effect tied to it, the power of the ability doesn't have to entirely depend on the mana burning, meaning that the mana burn can still be left relatively weak, while making up for it with other effects.

Also, do you have any plans on introducing some other anti-mage mechanics (like pausing/slowing CDs, a curse that will deal damage to the caster for every ability cast, and stunning mana regeneration in case burning it is too much, etc)?
This is a very good explanation of the issue. It's not like Mana Burn as a mechanic is bad in all games everywhere. It's just not a good fit for this game specifically.


To be fair, neither is 4 healthbars, gimped stealth or hypermobility, but they're here.

I play heroes for the crazy mechanics not "allowed" in other MOBAs.

Mana Burn could still be implemented on a support to slow up other supports, BUT, heal reduction the same thing in a sense.
Maybe a few more healing counters to ease the double or triple support/sustain comp agony?
You'd force more mana out of supports and have appropriate counterplay other than "we'd better match their sustain".
you could apply the same treatment they did to W3 Demon hunter : burn 1 to get 2 damage done. it was initially 100/200/300 mana burn for 100/200/300 damage but it was too strong so they nerf it to 50/100/150 mana burnt for 100/200/300 damage....less mana burn but for each, more damage. it wouldnt feel too op
Pretty sure manaburn (as others said) is balls hard to balance around at this stage of the game.

Its also (in my view) one of the lamest type of game mechanics right after RNG for crit/dodge. All you do is screw someone over which cant be avoided and if its turned into a skillshot the balance issue comes back in again for how does one make it feel rewarding enough without blowing it to sky high OP levels?

Also stop comparing a MobA with RTS since those have quite distinctive differences from one another on how they are played next to the fact they are two seperate bloody genre's.
I don't know if anyone touched on it yet since I only skimmed the thread, but in addition to the problem of it being unsatisfying until the enemy has no mana, and then not having much payoff (while being incredibly aggravating to play against) when you get them to the 0 mana state...

Well, you have heroes that don't *have* mana to begin with. And then you have heroes that do, but hardly rely on it to be useful. So that hero could end up with a skill that just doesn't do anything half the time. And that would be no fun at all for the user now, would it?
I think blizz can do better than simple "mana burn".

For example, an ability that makes the hero take X% health damage where X% is the mana it spends for the duration.

Or an ability that increases the mana cost of abilities for X seconds.

Or an ability that causes temporal mana burn, but gives it back, working as a semi-silence.

That would be more fun than plain mana burn, imo.
Pretty sure manaburn (as others said) is balls hard to balance around at this stage of the game.

Also stop comparing a MobA with RTS since those have quite distinctive differences from one another on how they are played next to the fact they are two seperate bloody genre's.


new mechanics of gameplay are always hard to balance but if it diversify the gameplay and allow for new strategies then I think the risk is worth.

beside nobody compare Moba and RTS. they just trying new mechanism to be incorporate to new characters so they don't feel the same "copy paste" hero but just different aesthetic . it might have to be changed a lit bit to rightly fit into the dynamism already in place but it's an interesting concept to think about.

a hero getting manaburn would be antimage and be less effective against those who don't need mana and it should be fine as blizzard is actually putting some warriors into specific counter position without any lore reason, like tyrael and anubarak as mage counter (due to natural spell armor) and arthas as AA/melee counter. That is also why drafting has become increasingly more important than before when the armor system wasn't present and where the hero rooster was more restraining team comp. it's like tychus losing lots of value against a strong bursty poky team...
Main problem with mana burn is that there are a ton of heroes which do not use mana. A more appropriate form would be a debuff which slows down enemy skill cooldown/recharge rates. This could be very powerful on some heroes which rely on skill spam like Illidan and Cho Gall while being weaker on heroes that rely of bursting with skills.
For those of you that want a mana burn hero let me introduce you to:

Tracer
Zarya
Auriel
Chen
Dva
Sonya
Samuro
Illidan
Probius yes he has mana but he regens it enough to make "Mana steal" useless
The Lost Vikings.
Cho/Gall

All heroes that would 1v1 your mana steal hero and mercilessly kill him/her.
Just 1 on team is a counter, a 5 man team of these and suddenly mana killer is a wasted hero, its 4v5.

Mana stealer becomes undraftable unless he is next to last pick or last pick, or a quick match troll pick because he could wind up against a comp where he just does noting. Talk about unfun....

Granted mana based heroes are about 85% of the hero pool, but making a hero that only works 85% of the time relegates him to a niche hero out of the gate.

Do we really want more niche heroes
In wow we used to have this and thats what I spent half of my time doing on my priest in BGs.. burning down Paladin mana pools because they had an infinite amount of it and the battle wouldn't end till the paladin was OOM.

This game.. hmm .. mana is too much of a precious resource to make a hero almost non-existent like that.

I also enjoyed mage stealing buffs off of everyone.. "Is that your Hand of Freedom???? Not anymore! mwhaa hahahaha" fun times.
Mana Burning has always been brought up throughout the game, it's great that we now have actual insight from a blizzard game designer to quote the next time this topic resurfaces!

I wonder if there's still potential for Mana Burn/Siphon Mana to make it into the game in the forms of silence though? I feel like this is more important for Illidan, because they really focused on his martial skills but not his magical skills; Immolation is only a talent, and Metamorphosis increases his attack speed rather than giving him a ranged chaos attack. Perhaps give him an active talent at level 20 similar to Blades of Azzinoth (16) where he gains a stack every time he hits an enemy hero with Dive, up to three stacks. At full stacks, he can cast Mana Burn to deal damage to an enemy hero and silence them.

Necessary? Of course not. But it would be great thematically.
07/19/2017 01:14 PMPosted by MattVi
Some other people have already touched on this, but I think Mana Burn would be very problematic in our game. It's basically a very unresponsive Silence (as it can take several uses to eliminate the target's mana pool), that lasts an impractically long time (likely 30+ seconds).

The result is that it feels extremely punishing for the enemy, and even the person doing the burning doesn't feel like they had a big impact most of the time. I greatly prefer Silence to accomplish that goal because it's really sharp and reliable (the moment I hit you, you're locked out of spells), but also not punishing beyond that initial window (after a few seconds of Silence I can play my hero again) - at least assuming you weren't killed during that time.

\
For trying to push boundaries in the Moba genre with heroes like Murky, Cho'gall, Abathur, Ragnaros, Tracer, etc etc I am completely shocked how scared the dev team is to touch mana burn. It's true that it's not a fun mechanic in other mobas but same would be said if you ported say, Tracer, over to LoL, she wouldn't be fun to play against but yet you guys found a way to make her work here.

Mana burn is an essential ability in the other mobas but the problem is that a lot of heroes have it which can turn into a cheesy and frustrating tactic to deal with. The nice thing about HotS is there are 10+ heroes that have literally no mana and won't be affected by it, PLUS there is Malfurion which can hard counter the ability. The key with making it work in HotS is to limit it to one hero and make it part of their gimmick while also making the ability fit HotS fast play style, not turning it into some 30 second DoT to mana like you were talking about.

Mana burn isn't a silence since you can still cast abilities with it. Please don't completely write off a major moba mechanic just because it's annoying in the other mobas and has no relation to HotS heroes or kits since there are far more counters in HotS for it than LoL/DotA.

07/19/2017 03:22 PMPosted by MattVi
07/19/2017 02:49 PMPosted by PlatinumPOS
It works in an RTS like Warcraft 3 or Starcraft because draining one or a few units of mana is only hindering part of your entire force (which includes the rest of your army, buildings, worker units, economy, etc). Kael'thas siphoning mana from single units in WC3 is a lot different than Kael'thas siphoning mana from 1 hero in HotS. In HotS, that 1 hero is all somebody has.

This is a very good explanation of the issue. It's not like Mana Burn as a mechanic is bad in all games everywhere. It's just not a good fit for this game specifically.


Again, I'm shocked to see this because I feel like HotS is the one game where it would work because of how many counters there are to the ability.. Draft Dva, Murky, Illidan, Auriel, and Gul'dan (or swap Gul and Murky for Chogall) and mana burn doesn't even work against the team. It sounds like a poor excuse to avoid an ability that is very controversial. You say that the ability would have to be either very weak, making it feel useless, or insanely OP to make it feel impactful but frustrating, where's the middle ground? You're a developer and shouldn't be looking at it so black and white. Make it a impactful heroic so it can't be spammed but yet feels sastifying when denying their ETC or ZJ from doing their ult last second. There are so many ways it can be added without it becoming frustrating or feeling unimpactful, as long as it's tied to only one hero so the ability can be countered in draft and kept in control via balance tweaks.
...However, any time we consider adding a new mechanic ("tool") to the game, we have to ask ourselves a very important question - Does the fun we're getting from adding this outweigh the frustration or "unfun" it causes?

And that, for me, is where Mana Burn falls short. If tuned fairly, it wouldn't be able to take a very large amount of mana in a single hit, so its impact is small. If its impact is small, it doesn't feel very rewarding to use. If it doesn't feel rewarding to use, then it's taking gameplay away from the enemy in exchange for only a mildly exciting outcome from the attacker's perspective. So at that point is it really adding more fun than it's taking away?

I'd say if anything we're excited to add more types of tools and counterplay to the game, but in this particular case I just don't think we'd get enough of a gameplay win to justify the downsides.

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Other MOBA/Browlers have think about the mana burn mechanisms and achieved to implement it fairly enough.
1- Mechanism based on opponent mana burst usage in a specify window of time/ area
* Like healing, CD refreshing, poisoning base on mana burst usage
2 - Mechanism based on temporary impact
* Like the target got a mana debuff/buff for a short duration and short area, and get back to initial state when the debuff/buff goes away
You can't put a mana burn in this game when the mana sistem is not balanced at all, with heroes that have mana but could pretty much don't have a mana bar like Tychus, Malthael, Probius, Raynor, Brightwing, etc. and heroes that actually can burn the mana bar really fast, like Kael'thas, Tyrande, Li-ming(this one not so much, but still can), Tyrael.

Of course, you can say that there is also heroes with high mobility and low mobility, or heroes with high and low HP, but that is something you can compensate with other heroes, the mana issues are something you can't compensate cause only Malfurion has Innervate, and, honestly, if he did not, no one will even notice or complain about.
Not having pick and play diversity hurts the game far more, then a less then ideal solution, when you're being locked into a build that is still going to be there.

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