My Dude Chen Needs Some Love!

General Discussion
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The thing is, Brewmaster's balance is already so strong for sustain healing. I dont see why I would ever want extra healing on drinking over BMB unless it gets very major buffs which then just makes it a better talent.
However, I still don't understand is why you removed the old Elemental Conduit Talent with the passive Storm-Earth-Fire Pandas. [...] Is there any chance we might see the talent coming back in a weaker form?

The main reason we changed Elemental Conduit is because it was visually spammy and very passive - it just kind of happened. We felt like it'd be more exciting if that panda power was concentrated into a bigger moment.

One thing to consider is that we also increased his overall damage, especially by giving him reliable access to a damage talent at Level 4. At this point I don't think he's necessarily lacking in bruiser power even without the old Conduit, and the new Conduit lets him do things to backline squishies that couldn't be shown on daytime TV.

07/14/2017 10:34 PMPosted by HansBro
Varian has a talent that gives him the option to do more damage to and burst enemy bubbles and I would like to see that on other heroes as well.

We also like this effect and want to try adding it to more heroes.
I don't think we'd want to go back to 3 straight tiers of Regen talents, but I believe there's room to buff Freshest Ingredients and that might help to get back some more of that Regen style you're looking for.


You did the community actually a big favor by nerfing the regen-build. Most people were even not aware that Chen had three builds before the rework hit him and they still don't realize that your rework offers at least three playstyles (Regen, Bruiser with Accumulating Flame and Deadly Strike, Keg/Throw Support for Executioner Talents) and many flexible choices. While some talents are hit or miss like Pressure Point (you don't feel the effect because we are all used to do the ability-rotation) it was one crazy good rework for him.

07/14/2017 11:14 PMPosted by MattVi
Oh for sure, we definitely didn't balance Refreshing Elixir on regen alone. The idea was that you could be with an Uther or something, and get huge burst heals when drinking. We felt like if you communicated with your support to heal you when you drink, it'd make for a really fun interaction.

I think we underestimated how tricky it would be to get reliable value, and that led us to undertune the talent. This is just me thinking out loud and not necessarily a change we'll make, but I wonder if it'd be more competitive if it was 40/80 or 30/90.


I think 30/90 would be a fine choice because even when it becomes OP for the moment, it would at least open a completely new and different playstyle for both Chen and the healer because it requires coordination from both the team and the enemies to get the effective or to stop Chen. You still can nerf it with the next patch if it becomes too strong.
07/13/2017 02:52 PMPosted by MattVi
I'd be curious how you all feel about Deadly Strike from that perspective. It basically means you can keep jumping around even if you can't drink - you're just unable to do your full combo until you drink again.


It's great for that - the problem is that Deadly Strike often can't be picked because it competes with 2 of his most powerful talents:

Ring of Fire is what makes Chen one of the best sololaners in the game, it allows you to win almost every 1v1 and pretty much doubles his waveclear and DPS against structures / mercs, which is why it's my go-to.
The W quest (forgot its name) is what gives Chen his lategame power, turning him from a good but risky meelee fighter to a long-ranged CC god who can keep an entire team permaslowed from half a screen away due to the synergy with Another Round on 16, which is why it is by far the most popular pick overall in HL.

Deadly Strike on its own is great, but compared to these 2 it kinda doesn't compete. It is a decent solution for too many interrupts on the other team, but that is mostly a QM issue - in Draft, I normally just wouldn't pick Chen at all if I feel I need Deadly Strike for the cost reduction.

Oh for sure, we definitely didn't balance Refreshing Elixir on regen alone. The idea was that you could be with an Uther or something, and get huge burst heals when drinking. We felt like if you communicated with your support to heal you when you drink, it'd make for a really fun interaction.

I think we underestimated how tricky it would be to get reliable value, and that led us to undertune the talent. This is just me thinking out loud and not necessarily a change we'll make, but I wonder if it'd be more competitive if it was 40/80 or 30/90.


The problem here is that your idea and actual gameplay don't really go along.

See, Chen is almost exclusively taken to win a sololane - that means, you don't have a support during laning.
In teamfights, the role of Chen is the bruiser who DOESN'T NEED MUCH SUPPORT to do his job, so your support can focus on keeping the squishies alive instead, and he's the guy who DOESN'T NEED OUT-OF-COMBAT HEALS because of his own sustain.
If a Chen needs heals in a teamfight, it's always in one situation: When his drinking got interrupted and he's getting focused, which means you don't get the boosted healing rate!
Refreshing Elixir is a niche talent, it's insane if you have weird comps like a solo-tank Chen with multiple supports or something like that... but it is pretty bad in normal gameplay because of this anti-synergy with his role and playstyle.
07/14/2017 11:14 PMPosted by MattVi
Oh for sure, we definitely didn't balance Refreshing Elixir on regen alone. The idea was that you could be with an Uther or something, and get huge burst heals when drinking. We felt like if you communicated with your support to heal you when you drink, it'd make for a really fun interaction.


What about making refreshing elixir a reward for the globe quest? And moving down Stormstout secret recipe to that tier instead and then balance it properly so it doesnt get out of hand? This would add a cool aspect to chens DK build imo.
Here's an idea. What about giving Chen a weaker version of Brewmaster Balance baseline, such as a small amount of Regen and 10% movement speed, but keep the lv 7 talent the same? The idea being to help give Chen more diversity to his lv7 talent tier, as it is a little one-sided at the moment.

Any opinions?
Just my input of an idea I thought of that would help Chen with stuns:
What if Chen needed to be hit by multiple stuns to actually get stunned. I'm not sure what a suitable number of stuns would be for him to be able to absorb but it would be pretty neat and thematic for Chen. For example Chen could be able to ignore 1 stun while drinking, meaning he would need at least 2 stuns to actually stun him. There could even be some type of animation showing that Chen has received a stun already.
For a different approach you could make it that that the shields over time Chen gets while drinking is decreased when he gets hit by a stun, but doesn't actually stun him. It would still add counter play but wouldn't completely ruin him if he gets stunned.
Hey I just wanted to pop in with a comment regarding Enough to Share.

I've been using this as a go-to at 16 with push comps, and it amounts to a scary strong power spike for early keep/core pressure in combo with certain other heroes. I really hope that Blizz devs keep this talent.

In fact I don't think Chen really needs any changes personally. At least not major ones. Refreshing elixir is a never-take talent so that could be moved or replaced with something useful, but other than that, I now and have always felt that Chen is in a good spot.

For reference, I have a ~57% WR with Chen over 2k+ games as that hero.
07/15/2017 07:13 AMPosted by Nerthan
Just my input of an idea I thought of that would help Chen with stuns:
What if Chen needed to be hit by multiple stuns to actually get stunned.


I can tell you right now that this would be a nightmare for QM, like Valeera it is. It's fine to get hit by stuns, most players simply have no feeling when they should not drink and when it's the right timing. Everything comes down if you know the cooldowns of the enemies and how far you can go when they team up against you.
Let Chen move SLOWLY and drunkenly while drinking. That buff alone would let him move out of some skillshots and be a hilarious/awesome buff that I don't think would be too powerful.
I'm casual player (play QMs mostly) and i'm from europe but this thread is gold and i just had to participate.
I've had some pretty hard time playing Chen lately because of stukov, Alarak and other new heroes and I just love the 0,5sek unstoppable idea. I don't think it would make Chen godlike, his shield still could be countered but at least he could drink long enough to gain some brew.

But it seems that is no longer an option to buff him this way.

Actually, I think the problem could kinda be solved if new heroes had no riddiculus amount of silences and stuns (like stukov). More players would have play them, the meta would have change and there would be much more situations when Chen is viable.
I think Chen should be unstoppable after self stop drinking

Drinking should gives shield straight away

This makes high level play to burn opponent's spell cooldown

Like Chen is unstoppable after self cancel drinking for 0.5s
I just want to add that Chen is coming back into meta a little bit. I watched a video by Nubkeks where he talked about the tier list and explained why all of the heroes are good or bad in the meta but he couldn't explain why he has been seeing more Chen. Also Chen has been in some pro matches. It might be because of a cheesy fast push strategy where he's there mainly to tank towers and an early boss for a fast win.

But although he fits into a very narrow niche, I still think it is a good idea to buff hes trait in a way that doesn't really raise hes power level much, but rather makes him playable more often.

The non stationary channel D seems reasonable for every level of play. Still probably not gonna fist pick him then but he wouldn't be such a rare sight.
I'm at work now but I'll have some input later about the playstyle behind refreshing Elixir and some feedback
I think Chen need some talent rebalancing, buff some weak and unpopular and nerf some overpicked talents.
The thing that bother me the most it is his Keg Smash and Breath of Fire. I think Chen really needs to have a reason to not always use Breath of Fire after Keg Toss, he needs to be able to combo it other way. This is what I also don't like about Kerrigan, you almost always forced to do combo 99% of the time. Alarak is much superior because any of his ability are useful in or out of combo.
My suggestion is to change the way these two abilities work:

Breath of Fire - Instead of X initial damage, now deals X initial damage and X damage over 2 seconds. Hitting a brew soaked target increases duration by 3 seconds.

Keg Smash - Added Functionality: Hitting an enemy on fire increases the slow to X and duration by X seconds.

I don't think giving him unstoppable is a good decision, I think it is better to allow him to slowly move while drinking, at 40% speed for example, this way only stuns and silences will be able to interrupt his drinking, but knockbacks and displacements don't. Maybe you will need to reduce his HP a bit to compensate this buff. I am pretty sure this change will make him more flexible and fun to play.
I dig this thread, very much. I'm a long time Chen favorite (mine is 55), and while i miss his old tanky self, I do enjoy his current bruiser iteration as well.

For the most part I agree his drinking and vulnerability to stuns is not what makes Chen lag behind. While difficult (extremely) to master, the art of when and how to draft Chen, and when to draw deep from the keg is really what Chen is all about.

Rather i think what impedes him, especially as more speedy and controlling types of heroes crowd the Nexus, is his rhythm. Again, as a longtime Chen fan, his rhythm is part of his charm, and i don't want it to go away. However, the talent that almost always feel mandatory to counterbalance his stop, drink, and roll style - Brewmaster's Balance - is still sitting there at level 7, mocking every time you try to choose something else. Its a struggle to play a smooth Chen game without it. With out BMB, Chen gets caught up and beat down much more easily, and i think this is what makes him feel like a tough sell even to those of us Chen Veterans who are comfortable playing around his trait's weakness to interrupts.

My dream is for BMB to be baseline, OR for that tier to be what separates "Tank Chen" from "Bruiser Chen." That would obviously entail a big rework again, and i know thats probably not in the cards for the big guy. But BMB baseline would make this hero feel soooooooooo so much smoother and faster, not to mention it could open up that tier for an extra option.

As a bonus treat, i think this talent would also feel a lot smoother if the range for double bonus were between 45-55, landing spot on 50 consistently is pretty tough in the thick of things, even for those of us with hundreds of Chen games.

I think this change alone would make Chen feel a lot more competitive, but i love the hints at other Chen tweaks too.
I am going to say this now. Keg Toss is garbage.

People kep saying how good a talent it is but the UTILITY of the ability changes completely.

Keg is an INSTANT 25% slow on the enemy and instant soak.

Keg toss is a 0.5 second delayed slow and soak. This completely messes up his rotation. He could cast flame before it even lands, losing his ignite. It happens so often i stopped getting the skill because i didnt want to lose the instant cast.

This is a huge problem. Why couldnt it simply increase the cast range without giving it a damn cast time?
MattVi: Do you mind sharing with us one final insight why the balancing team does not want LV7's Brewmaster's Balance being baseline? Given the circumstances that Alarak, Artanis, Malfurion and even Zagara got their former talents into the kit.. I wonder why everyone at Blizzard is rectulant to give him the 50%-playstyle mechanic permanently.
vague question about deadly strike

Its boring, and has no implications beyond making the double combo possible, and escaping more easily. It's also not that different from the base playstyle, because you have to drink before kicking to get the damage effect anyway.

I think his main problem is how simple his base playstyle is, and how your choices are basically limited to 'drink or autoattack' in many situations.

Rather than making brewmaster baseline, or 'improving' talents, what do you think about improving the base abilities, to give the player choices outside of talents?

Q: (in addition to it's current properties) You gain 15% attack speed for 5 seconds, or until you use another ability. (Only helps with Q followed by a chase, and doesn't function after a full combo.)

D: (in addition to it's current properties) If your last ability used in 5 seconds is Keg Smash, gain 20% dodge chance while drinking. (Doesn't function after full QWE combo)

D: (in addition to it's current properties) If your last ability used within 5 seconds is Flame Breath, gain 10 magic armor while drinking.
A potential answer to not having brew for 5 seconds when brew is cancelled, and i'm not saying it's a good answer, would be to give him a talent like shot of fury. I read earlier in here one reason you don't want to give unstoppable is because with the sheilds it could become a too powerful combination, but that's currently the only way to accumulate brew. a talent that gives a different ability to gain probably a small amount, perhaps only enough for one ability - or even just make his next ability cost 0 - so he has a chance to escape after a cancelled drink. Think this would be best put on a survivability tier like 7 and would definitely not need to be baseline.

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