Can we get a response on Valeera?

General Discussion
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To see what stealth heroes need i think that we should analyze Zeratul and take his playstyle as a goal. He's one of the most powerful heroes at high levels and it's really bad at low levels cause it's really skill required.
Why this? It's because he can stick on targets, deal burst and then leave. All of these three actions are not so easy to do and require coordination. Now, look at the other stealth heroes.

Nova has more burst, can't stick on target at all because she's focused the moment she leaves cloack and has no escapes.

Valeera has more utility but less burst and can't stick on target efficiently because has a really long CD on her Vanish. Her escapes are fine but she needs someone to combo with her CCs. She's decent at finishing targets but it's not her role.

Samuro has basically no burst outside of Bladestorm, his only way to chase is by movement speed (and it's basically sonya's chasing power) and has less survivability than zeratul or valeera being still melee.


Zeratul isn't frustrating (at least i don't see threads of high level players complaining about zeratul), he's considered really good for all these reasons and i think he's a good example of well done stealth concept.
Now, how can we fix the others?

Nova: her damage isn't a problem, it's probably one of the higher between all assasins. Her main problem is the lack of escape that are supposed to be her ranged skills. Okay let's pretend that she has that absurd range, there are still a lot of heroes who can easily dive her and chase her down to death.
She needs a lot more range (like 15% on Snipe and 30% on PS and Holo decoy) with maybe less burst and more slows but the most important thing is the lack of escapes. Ghost protocol baseline could be a good thing but a lot of her talents need reworks in general.
Also, get rid of this terrible Triple Tap concept and give her a decent ultimate with three charges, it's just a simple change to give her a bit of talent diversity at 10.

Valeera: she's the clue of this thread. She was strong in competitive and now she lacks exactly what they took away from her and it's burst. We're talking about 115% nerf on eviscerate at level 20 that is like 50% of her total damage.
I just don't understand why they nerfed her damage instead of buffing her utilty tools. She has a lot of utility, why can't we get a talent tier with poisons that allow us to decide what type of utility we want? Like and extended silence duration or a slow after ambush or even a spell/aa damage reduction after the stun?
Look at her pick rates: damage, damage with less range, damage, damage, damage, oh look, damage.

Samuro: in my opinion he's not a weak hero but the problem is that if played by a skilled player he's still not a good hero. I think i've never see a Samuro with illusion master that is a really cool heroic but the passive part should just be baseline. The whole point of a stealth hero is doing mind games on what you should be or you shouldn't be and Samuro should do the same without the need of this talent cause right now i can figure out where's the real Samuro better than when he's in stealth. Give him the possibility to swap health bars at 20, give him a little more burst with less health, give him some real buffs on Q build but don't let him be a noobstomper as he's known now.

I don't think we need a "general change on the stealth system" i think that everyone of them should be taken in consideration a bit to take away from players the feeling that Blizzard completely forgot about stealth heroes.
GM has a point, In QM I can play Valeera and go 20 and 0 easily with ambush build, right now buffing her for competitive would only make her QM abilities even more intimidating.
07/15/2017 10:02 PMPosted by Secant
Valeera needs a nerf. Buffing her is absurd

She has 4 types of cc, cloak of shadows is op, easily 100-0s 90% of the roster


Sounds like someone has been solo'ing lanes at 40%
Valeera isnt 100-0 90% of the roster. She is 100-0 100% of baddies who knows she is on the map but dont prepare themselves
Sorry I've had a super busy couple of days and haven't had a chance to respond, but it's great that there's a lot of good discussion going on in here. I found some time recently to chat with the Balance team about the gameplay purpose of Stealth in our game and wanted to share what came out of that.

As the Balance team currently sees it, the purpose of Stealth is-

  • Defense/Escape - Stealth makes you more difficult to target, and can also make it easier to escape danger. Skillful escapes using Stealth are cool.
  • Positional Advantage - Stealth makes it easier to get into positions your enemy would normally not expect you to be in. Since your risk of getting caught out is relatively low, you're less restricted by enemy map control than other heroes.
  • Map Advantage - Stealth makes it hard for enemies to know where you are on the map, which forces them to play more cautiously because they never know when you might show up in their lane or jump them on a Merc camp. This gives your teammates an edge in terms of controlling the map.

It's worth noting that none of these things necessarily require being able to show up invisibly on top of someone and 100-0 them. However as many have pointed out in this thread, several of our current Stealth heroes rely on that playstyle to be effective.

We still haven't determined what kind of changes we might make, but one possibility is trying to push some of our more burst-dependent Stealth heroes into having a bit more of a utility focus. Shifting some of their power to things like misdirection, scouting, map control, etc could be one way to make them feel more fair to play against while keeping them interesting to play as.

It's been interesting reading all the comments & ideas in this thread so far, and I'll keep popping in periodically if I have anything useful to add. Thanks for sharing your thoughts! =)
Sorry I've had a super busy couple of days and haven't had a chance to respond, but it's great that there's a lot of good discussion going on in here. I found some time recently to chat with the Balance team about the gameplay purpose of Stealth in our game and wanted to share what came out of that.

As the Balance team currently sees it, the purpose of Stealth is-

  • Defense/Escape - Stealth makes you more difficult to target, and can also make it easier to escape danger. Skillful escapes using Stealth are cool.
  • Positional Advantage - Stealth makes it easier to get into positions your enemy would normally not expect you to be in. Since your risk of getting caught out is relatively low, you're less restricted by enemy map control than other heroes.
  • Map Advantage - Stealth makes it hard for enemies to know where you are on the map, which forces them to play more cautiously because they never know when you might show up in their lane or jump them on a Merc camp. This gives your teammates an edge in terms of controlling the map.

It's worth noting that none of these things necessarily require being able to show up invisibly on top of someone and 100-0 them. However as many have pointed out in this thread, several of our current Stealth heroes rely on that playstyle to be effective.

We still haven't determined what kind of changes we might make, but one possibility is trying to push some of our more burst-dependent Stealth heroes into having a bit more of a utility focus. [i][/i]Shifting some of their power to things like misdirection, scouting, map control, etc could be one way to make them feel more fair to play against while keeping them interesting to play as.

It's been interesting reading all the comments & ideas in this thread so far, and I'll keep popping in periodically if I have anything useful to add. Thanks for sharing your thoughts! =)


THANK YOU FOR LISTENING :)!!!!!!!
I pick bribe on nova ever since it was added to her kit becuase it does exactly as you want, it gives her some utility (also helps that all of lvl 4 talents are boring trash but ignore that for now).

With that in mind, are we thinking of utility through talents, base kit adjustments, some combination of both?

I'd also point out that Nova has all that utility(some believe) -misdirection, scouting, and map control- but is so horrible at them it doesn't matter.

Misdirection - since beta the complaints have never ceased about holo decoy and it's bad AI. Could it finally be after 2 years I can hope for decoy changes, and maybe more interesting decoy talents?

Scouting - all stealth hero's can scout becuase they can't be seen so they are safe......except we know that's not true. Nova can drop a clone in a bush or over a wall, but that immediately alerts the enemy she is close by...... why take a nova for scouting when you can scout faster and safer with a tyrande owl for example. Also noting that she doesn't have any reveal mechanics (farsight = comsat station), one can hope for improvements in this area also.

Map Control - Bribe+stealth, outside of Bribe, nova doesn't actually have alot of map control, once a stealthy shows on the map, it's free cookies for everyone for 30-45 sec becuase of how long it takes to move between lanes, she doesnt push/depush lanes, and without health sustain AND the mobility creep most hero's are very happy to trade into a nova every chance they get.

I speak on nova becuase I have the most experience with her out of all the stealthers. Really looking forward to see what you guys (and everyone here) comes up with as "utility enhancements"
07/19/2017 06:39 PMPosted by MattVi
Sorry I've had a super busy couple of days and haven't had a chance to respond, but it's great that there's a lot of good discussion going on in here. I found some time recently to chat with the Balance team about the gameplay purpose of Stealth in our game and wanted to share what came out of that.

As the Balance team currently sees it, the purpose of Stealth is-

  • Defense/Escape - Stealth makes you more difficult to target, and can also make it easier to escape danger. Skillful escapes using Stealth are cool.
  • Positional Advantage - Stealth makes it easier to get into positions your enemy would normally not expect you to be in. Since your risk of getting caught out is relatively low, you're less restricted by enemy map control than other heroes.
  • Map Advantage - Stealth makes it hard for enemies to know where you are on the map, which forces them to play more cautiously because they never know when you might show up in their lane or jump them on a Merc camp. This gives your teammates an edge in terms of controlling the map.

It's worth noting that none of these things necessarily require being able to show up invisibly on top of someone and 100-0 them. However as many have pointed out in this thread, several of our current Stealth heroes rely on that playstyle to be effective.

We still haven't determined what kind of changes we might make, but one possibility is trying to push some of our more burst-dependent Stealth heroes into having a bit more of a utility focus. Shifting some of their power to things like misdirection, scouting, map control, etc could be one way to make them feel more fair to play against while keeping them interesting to play as.

It's been interesting reading all the comments & ideas in this thread so far, and I'll keep popping in periodically if I have anything useful to add. Thanks for sharing your thoughts! =)


Would you potentially give Merc Lord or something of the like to the stealthers? Some way to plant short term vision like Decoy?
Is this specific to Valeera or all of the stealthers now?

I think stealth + burst is just an impossible balance, because on one hand you'll have good players really jam Valeera/Nova/Samuro just for their picks, and on the other you'll have average (90% of the playerbase) getting totally wrecked because of lack of knowledge or the occasional random QM nightmare with no vision.

I am really enjoying the idea of shifting into being "crafty" and useful, as opposed to having extremely limited burst windows (and then having to bail out ASAP after tapping 3 keys) is an excellent idea.

We have to be a little bit crafty now with stealthers in teamfights but not really as a roamer, and that's when people feel oppressed. Heck, I even feel bad for the people I gank.
Crafty as in, how can I drop my burst and gtfrick out asap and hope my team is alright.
07/19/2017 06:39 PMPosted by MattVi
Sorry I've had a super busy couple of days and haven't had a chance to respond, but it's great that there's a lot of good discussion going on in here. I found some time recently to chat with the Balance team about the gameplay purpose of Stealth in our game and wanted to share what came out of that.

As the Balance team currently sees it, the purpose of Stealth is-

  • Defense/Escape - Stealth makes you more difficult to target, and can also make it easier to escape danger. Skillful escapes using Stealth are cool.
  • Positional Advantage - Stealth makes it easier to get into positions your enemy would normally not expect you to be in. Since your risk of getting caught out is relatively low, you're less restricted by enemy map control than other heroes.
  • Map Advantage - Stealth makes it hard for enemies to know where you are on the map, which forces them to play more cautiously because they never know when you might show up in their lane or jump them on a Merc camp. This gives your teammates an edge in terms of controlling the map.

It's worth noting that none of these things necessarily require being able to show up invisibly on top of someone and 100-0 them. However as many have pointed out in this thread, several of our current Stealth heroes rely on that playstyle to be effective.

We still haven't determined what kind of changes we might make, but one possibility is trying to push some of our more burst-dependent Stealth heroes into having a bit more of a utility focus. Shifting some of their power to things like misdirection, scouting, map control, etc could be one way to make them feel more fair to play against while keeping them interesting to play as.

It's been interesting reading all the comments & ideas in this thread so far, and I'll keep popping in periodically if I have anything useful to add. Thanks for sharing your thoughts! =)


See the problem is not necesarely stealths , the problem is Valeera , when you designed her trait and gameplay , you also made her completly reliant on her stealth mechanic and therefore it would be logical to have the best stats to compansate a high risk - high reward hero but is not , she has the worst stats compared to the other stealths.
The only thing she wins at over the other stealths it's CC wich it's just not enough to justify.
Thought I'd make a quick post on this as a top #10 grandmaster player with over 400 valeera games

the only time she does threatening damage is with the assassinate talent on 7, and a full burst combo consisting of ambush, blade flurry, eviscerate. After this point she's left completely vulnerable with poor sustained damage and zero sustain.

The core issue of her gameplay comes from the lvl 13 talent "death from above". Playing vs skilled players you will NEVER be able to walk up and open on a backline. Even if they don't see you, the stealth will be likely cancelled by random AOE.

Compare Valeera to Zeratul, and the latter has plenty of teleport engagement options to fufill his role of a backline slayer. Valeera has only death from above as this option, and isn't available until 13. Another issue this creates is that of zero talent diversity. There is 1 valeera build run by all players, with very little variaton. The garrote talents suck, the cheap shot talents suck, the sinister strike talents suck. They are not interesting and diverse ways to improve your character, they are just downright worthless compared to the optimal choices.

So here are some suggestions:

The goal is to preserve the high skillcap expected of a hero of this nature, while keeping potential burst damage in check to limit pubstomping capabilities

Death from above baseline. New level 13 talent:

Shadow Dance: Casting an ability from stealth puts you in a shadow dance for 3 seconds, allowing the use 1 more stealth ability. Gives a more zeratul-esque skillcap, allowing the potential for powerful stealth combos. Double cheap shot to lock a single target down. Double ambush teleport to juke enemies and escape. Silencing two backline mages to prevent damage, etc etc. Could be too powerful for 13, perhaps a lvl 20 talent to make up for the loss of cold blood

Basic attack damage increased by 10-15%. Gives her meaningful sustained damage and a reason to right click outside of burst combos

Sinister strike damage increased. Right now this ability deals negligable damage for its energy cost of 30. The prime culprit for Valeera's laughable damage. Auto+sinister+bladeflurry all do NEXT TO ZERO damage. She is quite literally not remotely threatening outside the burst combo

Honestly there are plenty of cool rogue mechanics in wow that could potentially be translated. Right now the "skill cap" of valeera is pretty damn low. Compared to zeratul who has 3 teleports and a game-breaking ultimate, she has 1 teleport and a 3 button rotation outside of which she does nothing but wait for the stealth cooldown

/rant
07/19/2017 09:45 PMPosted by Lightsy
Thought I'd make a quick post on this as a top #10 grandmaster player with over 400 valeera games

the only time she does threatening damage is with the assassinate talent on 7, and a full burst combo consisting of ambush, blade flurry, eviscerate. After this point she's left completely vulnerable with poor sustained damage and zero sustain.

The core issue of her gameplay comes from the lvl 13 talent "death from above". Playing vs skilled players you will NEVER be able to walk up and open on a backline. Even if they don't see you, the stealth will be likely cancelled by random AOE.

Compare Valeera to Zeratul, and the latter has plenty of teleport engagement options to fufill his role of a backline slayer. Valeera has only death from above as this option, and isn't available until 13. Another issue this creates is that of zero talent diversity. There is 1 valeera build run by all players, with very little variaton. The garrote talents suck, the cheap shot talents suck, the sinister strike talents suck. They are not interesting and diverse ways to improve your character, they are just downright worthless compared to the optimal choices.

So here are some suggestions:

The goal is to preserve the high skillcap expected of a hero of this nature, while keeping potential burst damage in check to limit pubstomping capabilities

Death from above baseline. New level 13 talent:

Shadow Dance: Casting an ability from stealth puts you in a shadow dance for 3 seconds, allowing the use 1 more stealth ability. Gives a more zeratul-esque skillcap, allowing the potential for powerful stealth combos. Double cheap shot to lock a single target down. Double ambush teleport to juke enemies and escape. Silencing two backline mages to prevent damage, etc etc. Could be too powerful for 13, perhaps a lvl 20 talent to make up for the loss of cold blood

Basic attack damage increased by 10-15%. Gives her meaningful sustained damage and a reason to right click outside of burst combos

Sinister strike damage increased. Right now this ability deals negligable damage for its energy cost of 30. The prime culprit for Valeera's laughable damage. Auto+sinister+bladeflurry all do NEXT TO ZERO damage. She is quite literally not remotely threatening outside the burst combo

Honestly there are plenty of cool rogue mechanics in wow that could potentially be translated. Right now the "skill cap" of valeera is pretty damn low. Compared to zeratul who has 3 teleports and a game-breaking ultimate, she has 1 teleport and a 3 button rotation outside of which she does nothing but wait for the stealth cooldown

/rant


That'd definitely push her into broken territory. Shadowdance can stay in WoW. I prefer the utility idea.

Her base AA is quite reasonable, on par with just about everyone else (Kerrigan Zeratul Greymane ((human)) Butcher ((unstacked)) etc.), it's stronger than Illidan's base damage. Combine that with the Garrote talent, and her AA is very strong.

The only differences between her and Zeratul are Rs, mobility, and Rewind. If she can't be loaded with more mobility or decent Rs, there is no point in picking her.

There's definitely a reason to stay in, there's just no opportunity to bother doing it, because you'll die instantly. She's got 1 abilities worth of HP more than Genji.

Cheapshots are also her highest winrate, for what that's worth.

Make smoke bomb slow targets by 75% or something... who the heck can walk through a thick cloud of smoke quickly that makes a target completely unrevealable?

And Cloak... Cloak needs to be a restealth with the same effect or a small teleport (i.e. Shadowstep) OR a large movement speed buff. What kind of Rogue doesn't have Sprint? It's been a staple cooldown for 13 years.

Anything to make DFA not the only decent movement build. All of her other talents don't necessarily "suck", but they're more fitting for a bruiser or peeler... which she can't do for extended periods.

Also, DFA baseline would break her kit as well / make Cheap Shot and Garrote even less useful.
I'd argue that the skill floor and cap of all stealth heroes (minus Zera, for cap) are pretty low. You show up from stealth, try to 100-0 and then run away. Then you come back, and do it again.
One angle I don't see anyone talking about is creating more anti-stealth in "QM talents". Lunara is a good example of a hero with "QM talents". I probably have never taken her self-heal (Siphoning Toxin) at level 7 in a HL game (maybe once?); but it's a very common QM pick up, because the value goes way up when you don't have a support and it's your only means of entering a teamfight at full hp (In fact, that talent and her anti-stealth wisp are the highest winrate talents in QM according to hotslogs).

So imagine if some similarly "sucks-in-organized-play-but-good-in-QM" talents directed at stealth heroes got distributed to the squishier heroes. Say every support hero with Cleanse could take Clairvoyance at level 7. Pro players would take Cleanse anyway, but in QM if the Valeera/Nova/whatever is crushing your team, you could take Clairvoyance and make her life difficult. Once the QM winrate falls enough, there'd be room for buffs that might make her competitively viable again.
07/19/2017 06:39 PMPosted by MattVi
Defense/Escape - Stealth makes you more difficult to target, and can also make it easier to escape danger. Skillful escapes using Stealth are cool.
Positional Advantage - Stealth makes it easier to get into positions your enemy would normally not expect you to be in. Since your risk of getting caught out is relatively low, you're less restricted by enemy map control than other heroes.

I feel an urge to mention how hard these two get ruined with reveals. An enemy dropping a scouting drone/spell completely nullifies these two supposedly major strengths of a stealth hero, making it so easy to render them completely useless. In some cases, for a time, in others for a complete teamfight!

Also, take Nova, she can't escape with stealth until level 20. It she can cloak naturally, that is not an escape. Even now her stealth is crippled, compared to your list.
Nova: her damage isn't a problem, it's probably one of the higher between all assasins. Her main problem is the lack of escape that are supposed to be her ranged skills. Okay let's pretend that she has that absurd range, there are still a lot of heroes who can easily dive her and chase her down to death.
She needs a lot more range (like 15% on Snipe and 30% on PS and Holo decoy) with maybe less burst and more slows but the most important thing is the lack of escapes. Ghost protocol baseline could be a good thing but a lot of her talents need reworks in general.
Also, get rid of this terrible Triple Tap concept and give her a decent ultimate with three charges, it's just a simple change to give her a bit of talent diversity at 10.


I would like to disagree.
In my personal opinion Nova is really close to being perfectly fine in every ELO at this moment.
If it where not for the meta as it is now, she might even be at this moment.
But since Nova is more or less a hero takin up the mage spot, and mages are currently rather under used in high elo.

In regards to what could be better about her, it really is alot about her getting all that power in her talents, but that can be a little to late.
My prefered build is snipemaster nova, after the buff of the snipe ability and not losing stacks as long as you hit anything it is better then one in the chamber most of the times, especially since with her slow AA speed she can otherwise easily be countered by block mechanics (when will her Anti-Armor shells finally get Anti Armor / Block mechanics ? :P)
Problem is: Until you hit lvl 7, nova is underperforming. With snipemaster stacks and lvl 10, she is pretty viable, bringing good high ranged burst potential with her.
With lvl 13 explosive shot, she gets waveclear and some push potential, and with lvl 16 vulnerability or faster snipe resets she either gets more blow up power/team support, or really high sustain ranged dmg.
Lvl 20 finally gives her either the power to delete people with rewind, or to never die again with ghost protocol.

Being an easy target never was much of a problem for me playing nova. Simply spoken, if the enemy has the power to instantly dive and delete you after you engage the fight, any kind of squishy ranged assasin has that same problems, and nova is even easyer to play in that situation, since you can basically dance around your really high max range and apply heavy poke (at lvl 16 you can apply >1k dmg snipes every 3 seconds from max range, exploding on impact and splashing. one of the best frontline pokers in the current game state).
And its really hard to catch a good positioned Nova unless u have a gapcloser with huge range, cause once she just runs away and get stealths she can utilize her lvl 1 stealth movement talent (good combo with snipemaster), and then is a lean mean juking machine.

TLDR:
-Nova early game weak
-Not fitting the current meta as well as other heros
-while not having many hardcounters, those who hardcounter can do it really good, like genji.
Thanks for responding to this thread. I appreciate all you guys do to make this a great game.

For me, I have never liked the stealth mechanic. Stealth heroes are fun to play, as it is immensely satisfying to blow us some unsuspecting hero. However, it is not fun to be blown up, and often the stealth heroes don't actually add much to a team comp. This leaves one out of ten players in the game happy with that hero, and the other nine not so much. I think the challenge is that what makes these heroes fun to play is exactly what makes others hate them.

I do like your proposal about making stealth heroes more about utility than burst. I think that could be an interesting way to fix the problem and I look forward to hearing how that progresses.
Probably the most straightforward way of solving this is to look at what does work. And that's pretty clear: Zeratul. He has a 'decent' pick rate in competitive and high-end play, without being absurdly overpowered in QM/low-end play.

So, why is that?

Hard to say, of course, but I think the most common answer to this question is going to be "void prison".

Utility. This makes sense, because "utility" is an inherently coordination-demanding thing, which is an upper-rank thing, while being decidedly not a lower-rank thing. So, give all stealth some utility ults, or at least active talents, and they may get picked more. I think Valeera is already on that track with her poisons, but (much?) more can be added to it - perhaps start from scratch with her poisons to make a whole "poison build" possible. Maybe move a generic "poison" to a baseline (1) ability, and talents at 4, 13, and 16 to enhance it? The idea is that if you went for a a 'poison build,' you would be nearly as effective if you never used your trait.

As for nova, triple tap is almost entirely a QM thing. It won't be missed if it's replaced with something that has greater uitility. Perhaps a slow-moving homing projectile that puts its target into stasis for 8 seconds or something? It would be similar to cocoon, which sees plenty of use.

Also, and this could be way out there, but perhaps this could be an opportunity to buff medivh in QM without adversely affecting him in higher ranks. His level 20 talent that grants invisibility - what if it also passively gave X% attack damage to all allied heroes for Y seconds after they break stealth, regardless of the source of stealth.
Just change Valeera to be more of a control playstyle with semi-good burst, which is not point and click. And I'm happy. There's also room for a new talent at level 20.
What if she legit had Sap at level 20 which puts enemies to sleep for 2-3 seconds (any damage interrupts it of course)? That would be interesting.
07/15/2017 07:16 PMPosted by Valeera
Hello, I was hoping we could get an official response on the situation with Valeera. Right now she has a poor winrate, and is considered by many to be extremely weak outside incredibly niche scenarios at higher levels. She's my favorite hero, but I don't like the place she is in right now.

The previous nerfs were intended to make her less frustrating at low levels of play and in QM, but she still tends to be frustrating in those scenarios and now has had her viability killed at high levels.

Her talent pool has a lot of interesting options, but a lot of the time you can't afford to pick them because valeera relies on a few core talents (Initiative, Assassinate, Death From Above) to be effective and have the burst she needs to be sufficiently threatening late game. Perhaps restoring some of her burst from Eviscerate that was removed would help to make other, more utility focused builds more viable.

Another option I could see would be doing a larger rework to her talents. A big reason Death From Above is so hard not to pick is the reliable gap closer it provides Valeera. Perhaps including ways for her to close the gap with her other stealth abilities could help? I don't know. I'm just brainstorming ideas of ways to help valeera out.

It might be good to try and find a way to boost her skill cap but also increase her potential strength as well, so she's less of a "noob stomp" hero so to speak, and requires a lot of skill to get the full burst out of her.

You don't necessarially have to do any of those, they are just suggestions. However, I would truly appreciate it if we could get a blue post talking a little bit about valeera and if you are considering changes for her. That would really mean the world to me if a blue could put aside some time to do that. Thanks a lot for reading.

i think one of the larger reasons she struggles is more so because she is very hero damage focused oppose to doing damage to structures or minions.
honestly i'd much rather have eviscerate capped at 5 if it meant i could get stacks from sinister strike and blade furry on minions and was able to put more damage out while sieging. same goes for stealth abilities. the only thing is i worry that if this is done than they'll take a lot of her power away from her hero damage.
07/20/2017 03:54 PMPosted by Proïa
07/15/2017 07:16 PMPosted by Valeera
Hello, I was hoping we could get an official response on the situation with Valeera. Right now she has a poor winrate, and is considered by many to be extremely weak outside incredibly niche scenarios at higher levels. She's my favorite hero, but I don't like the place she is in right now.

The previous nerfs were intended to make her less frustrating at low levels of play and in QM, but she still tends to be frustrating in those scenarios and now has had her viability killed at high levels.

Her talent pool has a lot of interesting options, but a lot of the time you can't afford to pick them because valeera relies on a few core talents (Initiative, Assassinate, Death From Above) to be effective and have the burst she needs to be sufficiently threatening late game. Perhaps restoring some of her burst from Eviscerate that was removed would help to make other, more utility focused builds more viable.

Another option I could see would be doing a larger rework to her talents. A big reason Death From Above is so hard not to pick is the reliable gap closer it provides Valeera. Perhaps including ways for her to close the gap with her other stealth abilities could help? I don't know. I'm just brainstorming ideas of ways to help valeera out.

It might be good to try and find a way to boost her skill cap but also increase her potential strength as well, so she's less of a "noob stomp" hero so to speak, and requires a lot of skill to get the full burst out of her.

You don't necessarially have to do any of those, they are just suggestions. However, I would truly appreciate it if we could get a blue post talking a little bit about valeera and if you are considering changes for her. That would really mean the world to me if a blue could put aside some time to do that. Thanks a lot for reading.

i think one of the larger reasons she struggles is more so because she is very hero damage focused oppose to doing damage to structures or minions.
honestly i'd much rather have eviscerate capped at 5 if it meant i could get stacks from sinister strike and blade furry on minions and was able to put more damage out while sieging. same goes for stealth abilities. the only thing is i worry that if this is done than they'll take a lot of her power away from her hero damage.


That's because stealth heros are designed to be duelists, they are not and should not be designed for siege damage.
OP started with Valeera balancing issue and all ended in suggestions to make stealth dangerous to it user and his team, not the enemy. Nova having hard times since Li-Ming path rework (only having little buff to sniper masterity resently) will be not just troll pick in gold+ leagues, but even useless in bronze 5 with alarming sounds and ! marks about targets cloaker is near to. Yes developers are right about cloaker with oneshot potential is not the way to go. Cloaker main role is allowing enemy solo laner ganks, when he thinks he is 1 v 1. In team figths cloakers offer too little exept Zeratul with his zoning void prison and ultimate mobility. They have neither burst of nor sustain to keep em fighting without stealth. Ganks can be set by timed rotations from the bushes, so why do we need stealther with weaker dps in team fight then? Thats why we see Valeera only on maps where teams are forced to be split, like dragonshrine, when you need to counter solo laners like Sonya. In other cases just taker hyper mobile Genji or Zeratul who is more OP heroes, but noone cries about em, because Valeera had lower skillcap needed with her one shot lvl 20 build.
Without cold blood, she needs litte redesign to ajust her auto attack build, maybe make poisoins build in feature (but either slowing or healing reducing ). At the very end its not Valeera that kills QM balance or makes unfun for new players to learn. Its broken rules of matchmaking, when we see 2 specialust and 3 randed assassins on other team and Varian + Buther and abathur and some ranged burst with any other specialiat on other side. With HotS 2.0 QM rules seem especially broken.
In case of Valeera you could just add Mirror rule, like you should have done it with Varian, so both teams would have thouse heroes. Also mathmaking needs subroles division, like ranged sustain or melee burst. Yes, longer wait time on some heroes, but at least fair mathmaking.
07/19/2017 06:39 PMPosted by MattVi
Sorry I've had a super busy couple of days and haven't had a chance to respond, but it's great that there's a lot of good discussion going on in here. I found some time recently to chat with the Balance team about the gameplay purpose of Stealth in our game and wanted to share what came out of that.

As the Balance team currently sees it, the purpose of Stealth is-

  • Defense/Escape - Stealth makes you more difficult to target, and can also make it easier to escape danger. Skillful escapes using Stealth are cool.
  • Positional Advantage - Stealth makes it easier to get into positions your enemy would normally not expect you to be in. Since your risk of getting caught out is relatively low, you're less restricted by enemy map control than other heroes.
  • Map Advantage - Stealth makes it hard for enemies to know where you are on the map, which forces them to play more cautiously because they never know when you might show up in their lane or jump them on a Merc camp. This gives your teammates an edge in terms of controlling the map.

It's worth noting that none of these things necessarily require being able to show up invisibly on top of someone and 100-0 them. However as many have pointed out in this thread, several of our current Stealth heroes rely on that playstyle to be effective.

We still haven't determined what kind of changes we might make, but one possibility is trying to push some of our more burst-dependent Stealth heroes into having a bit more of a utility focus. Shifting some of their power to things like misdirection, scouting, map control, etc could be one way to make them feel more fair to play against while keeping them interesting to play as.

It's been interesting reading all the comments & ideas in this thread so far, and I'll keep popping in periodically if I have anything useful to add. Thanks for sharing your thoughts! =)

Reverting her E nerf would be a great buff that will allow her to stay afloat before you apply new changes to her.

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