Which heroes have a kit does not fit into their fantasy?

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Oh, great!

So can I have Army of the Dead on Xul now please?

What? Why not? Malthael just took Kerrigan's heroic ability. What the hell?

Oh! And the real, male barbarian? (#NoSexism)

edit: Almost forgot! Tyrael is a generic goon! Where's the Justice thematic?
07/28/2017 02:20 PMPosted by Fattius
07/28/2017 02:16 PMPosted by Surinen
...
It is a boss fight. And he was Y'shaarj infused by then anyway. In the lore, cinematics, events he is clearly depicted as bruiser.


He took a beating from Thrall anf tar zhu in cut scenes. Almost every cut scene he is shows DURABILITY FEATS is that so hard for you idiot brain to understand? Go through all the Garrosh cut scenes and they all show his durability not brute !@#$ing force. The MoP one he was getting his %^- beat until he yanked Tra zhu on a *!@#ing chain

Of course he did. What else did youe expect that he is going to fold after one blow? So Taran Zhu is also a tank I guess in your mind? He shows his devastating strength in all of the cutscenes and lore descriptions. Also Thrall was also durable as he stood up after Garrosh's slam. Does it make Thrall tank? What? You have clearly atched the wrong video, because taran lands two blows total. Oh so tanky. Oh so very much.

Garrosh always was a bruiser.
07/28/2017 11:37 AMPosted by Surinen
07/28/2017 11:14 AMPosted by MattVi
I'd like to think this goes without saying, but I'll say it anyway just in case: when designing heroes we care very much about hitting their fantasy.

One reason a hero might deviate from what you expect them to do is the translation process into our game. We have to make the gameplay good first and foremost, and for one reason or another there will inevitably be something we can't include.

As an example, during Malthael's development several people on the team expressed a desire to see moves from his D3 boss fight that didn't make it in. We see this a lot with boss fights, and the issue is usually that Boss abilities are specifically designed to be avoidable, so they tend not to fit into a PvP game. In Heroes I want my moves to be fairly reliable, at least enough that I can predict how my target will move and have a good chance of hitting them. And yes sometimes we can adapt these abilities to feel good in our game, but not always (ex: because they'd lose too much of what makes them cool, or would be identical to another ability in the game).

There are also issues like visual clarity to consider. When you have 10 heroes on the screen all using Heroic abilities, it's problematic to have one ability that floods the battlefield and requires all of your focus to deal with (as you would in a boss fight). We're also trying to be more careful about how many units a hero can summon, because while it's cool from a fantasy-perspective a swarm of HP bars on the screen can quickly destroy battlefield readability.

Finally and perhaps the biggest challenge we face (at least in terms of the passionate opinions about fantasy we see here) is that everyone has their own idea of what a hero's fantasy actually is. If I asked 100 of you to send me a design for Garrosh, I'd get 100 different responses, all with good reasons for why you feel he should be that way. We have our own vision that we come to after a lot of discussion within the team, and it's almost guaranteed that there will be people who disagree with it. The more iconic and memorable the hero, and the more different forms they can appear in throughout our games, the greater the chance this will happen.

One of the first things we have to figure out when we decide to make a hero is "which version are we doing?". Is Kael'thas the Warcraft 3 version? The Tempest Keep version? The Magister's Terrace version? Does he draw inspiration from all of them? Likewise with Garrosh, who appeared across 5 different WoW expansions, we talked about which version to draw primary inspiration from and which elements of others we might want to include. The result you see is what we felt like was the best version of Garrosh for our game.

You may not always agree with us when it comes to hero fantasy, and that's totally fair, but know that it's very important to us to do a hero's fantasy justice to the greatest extent that we're able within the framework of our game.

In other words, from all 5 different expansions you have made Garrosh in the way that he never, ever appeared in your games. He was always depicted as bloodthirsty warrior with great martial mind fueling his rage. Perfect fit for a bruiser has been wasted on mountain giant kit. Wielder of Gorehowl reduced to a damage sponge just to fill the tank quota. It is uninspiring. I'm more than sure that even people with sliver of lore knowledge would say that he should be a damage dealer. More than assassin, less than tank.

But I guess that because of the length of your message people will melt away with awe for the 'insight'. Also, I don't really believe your words. You just wanted a famous guy for a tank. All I can say is 'pity' you did not choose other orc for this role.


this a million times...

Garrosh was NEVER a Tank that hits like a wet noodle..... EVER....... he was allways this Berseker Blood thirsty im a 1 man army killer machine guy.... ALLWAYS....
07/28/2017 02:02 PMPosted by Fattius
<span class="truncated">...</span>

Matt, if the fantasy of the character is as important to you as you say it is, why did you guys choose to have Garrosh be a Tank, when he has never been a Protection Warrior in WoW or shown any desire to protect the weak?


It literally took 25 of the worlds most powerful heroes and the united nations of alll the allies and horde to take down Garrosh, how in hell does that not spell tank?


Ah the ol' "because he's a raidboss, he must be a tank." Gul'dan should be a tank too right?
07/28/2017 08:56 AMPosted by lol49
In my opinion the fantasy really doesnt matter as long as the hero is fun to play.

In Garroshs case the complaint "the kit doesnt fit the fantasy" can be transalted into: "I want to hunt for solo kills the whole game in QM but instead Blizzard gave me a team dependant tank. Please change him into a generic bruiser so i can 1v1 people".

And it was the same every time before when people complained about a kit not fitting the fantasy. Every time it comes down to: i wanted a hero that can do !@#$ on his own and not this team dependant weakling.

Hopefully Blizzard will never start listening to complaints like this and instead continue to release heroes the game really needs. (Like in this case a new main tank)


This game is literally "let's make Super Smash Bros but with Blizzard IP instead of Nintendo and make it a MOBA because those are the most profitable right now". If nothing fits into the fantasy then it's really just a third-rate MOBA with all the MOBA problems and nothing special or unique. If someone is going to describe this game to someone who hasn't heard of it, you're going to describe it something like that, and throw in "it's easier than League of Legends". If characters don't adhere to the fantasy at all (close to nothing about Xul is from the Diablo 2 necromancer, and his design stinks because he only works well on one map, okay on three others, and far below average on the rest - Xul gets my vote for missing the mark) then no one will care and people will leave.

A big part of the draw for this game is "imagine you could play League of Legends, but you could pit Raynor against Kerrigan once and for all," or who would win between Arthas and Diablo, etc. Right now, people only come from other Blizzard games when there's a cross-game promotion to get a reward in OW/WoW/D3. I've been selling this game hard to anyone I can talk videogames with and I still have no irl friends to play it with because they miss the lore, change the characters, or the other problems underlying this game that aren't on topic in this thread.
07/28/2017 02:02 PMPosted by Fattius
07/28/2017 11:46 AMPosted by Flinx
...

Matt, if the fantasy of the character is as important to you as you say it is, why did you guys choose to have Garrosh be a Tank, when he has never been a Protection Warrior in WoW or shown any desire to protect the weak?


It literally took 25 of the worlds most powerful heroes and the united nations of alll the allies and horde to take down Garrosh, how in hell does that not spell tank?


By that argument, Gul'Dan should also be a Tank... And Ragnaros, Illidan, Kael'thas and any other raid boss from WoW.

Oh, and once Kel'Thuzad is added to the game, he will be a Tank... I can't wait to see how happy people are about that.

:p
07/28/2017 02:05 PMPosted by pbVax
When I heard that they are bring a SC probe to the Nexus, I was so excited by the potential of doing a cannon rush or having pylons occasionally warp in some zealot minions.

Believe it or not we actually tried this sort of kit first, and it didn't work out very well. It was kind of like playing Abathur without his Q ability. It was cool for a couple of games, but the novelty wore off very quickly =(

I think what we ended up with gives him a much more active playstyle and lots of room for mastery, while still being very builder/setup focused. My one regret is that I think we were overly worried about similarity to Gazlowe and went too restrictive on his ability to build Cannons. I think this is something we could do more with once we have some time to update him.
The one hero that I think does not live up to its fantasy, and I hate to say this because I like it the way it is, is Probius. Probes, as I play them in SC, don't detonate warp rifts on enemy units to damage them (or participate in combat at all unless things are going bad). They build. A better fantasy Probius would have a higher pylon count, maybe even unlimited, and build more than photon cannons. Maybe it would build gateways on allied forts or destroyed enemy forts to add more minions to a lane, or a forge to upgrade allies, the main point being that Probius would spend more time behind the safety of walls/the team engaged in macro play. I can, however, see how this would be an unpopular design, as it would be a very low interaction hero to play. But, since this is just an open speculation thread that exists for fun and not for serious feedback on the game, and because I like Probius as is, I figure it does no harm to speculate.

Edit: It seems my speculation was answered directly above while I was typing my post.
07/28/2017 02:35 PMPosted by MattVi
07/28/2017 02:05 PMPosted by pbVax
When I heard that they are bring a SC probe to the Nexus, I was so excited by the potential of doing a cannon rush or having pylons occasionally warp in some zealot minions.

Believe it or not we actually tried this sort of kit first, and it didn't work out very well. It was kind of like playing Abathur without his Q ability. It was cool for a couple of games, but the novelty wore off very quickly =(

I think what we ended up with gives him a much more active playstyle and lots of room for mastery, while still being very builder/setup focused. My one regret is that I think we were overly worried about similarity to Gazlowe and went too restrictive on his ability to build Cannons. I think this is something we could do more with once we have some time to update him.


that makes sense, and a cannon buff would be nice.
07/28/2017 02:35 PMPosted by MattVi
07/28/2017 02:05 PMPosted by pbVax
When I heard that they are bring a SC probe to the Nexus, I was so excited by the potential of doing a cannon rush or having pylons occasionally warp in some zealot minions.

Believe it or not we actually tried this sort of kit first, and it didn't work out very well. It was kind of like playing Abathur without his Q ability. It was cool for a couple of games, but the novelty wore off very quickly =(

I think what we ended up with gives him a much more active playstyle and lots of room for mastery, while still being very builder/setup focused. My one regret is that I think we were overly worried about similarity to Gazlowe and went too restrictive on his ability to build Cannons. I think this is something we could do more with once we have some time to update him.


how about you let the Players Decide what they think is fun and fits more ? and let us test these Total Reworks and original ideas that seems like are Playable and working because you guys actualy playing with the char before totaly redesigning it into something BAD ?

just because that 5 man from the devs does not enjoy it doesent mean its not enjoyable to houndreds of thousends of other ACTUAL PLAYERS you make this game for to begin with.....

Let us SEE these ideas befor you guys dramaticaly change it and mess up a character....
07/28/2017 02:55 PMPosted by Zordrage
how about you let the Players Decide what they think is fun and fits more ?


Because I'm a player and think your ideas are completely nuts. Which one of us should be making the decision Blizzard has to follow?
07/28/2017 02:39 PMPosted by Virgil
The one hero that I think does not live up to its fantasy, and I hate to say this because I like it the way it is, is Probius. Probes, as I play them in SC, don't detonate warp rifts on enemy units to damage them (or participate in combat at all unless things are going bad).


What if . . . .

Q: build something
W: build something
E: build something

1: use/target Q item
2: use/target W item
3: use/target E item
07/28/2017 02:35 PMPosted by MattVi
Gazlowe

Isn't there too much going on in Gazlowe's kit?
07/28/2017 02:55 PMPosted by Zordrage
<span class="truncated">...</span>
Believe it or not we actually tried this sort of kit first, and it didn't work out very well. It was kind of like playing Abathur without his Q ability. It was cool for a couple of games, but the novelty wore off very quickly =(

I think what we ended up with gives him a much more active playstyle and lots of room for mastery, while still being very builder/setup focused. My one regret is that I think we were overly worried about similarity to Gazlowe and went too restrictive on his ability to build Cannons. I think this is something we could do more with once we have some time to update him.


how about you let the Players Decide what they think is fun and fits more ? and let us test these Total Reworks and original ideas that seems like are Playable and working because you guys actualy playing with the char before totaly redesigning it into something BAD ?

just because that 5 man from the devs does not enjoy it doesent mean its not enjoyable to houndreds of thousends of other ACTUAL PLAYERS you make this game for to begin with.....

Let us SEE these ideas befor you guys dramaticaly change it and mess up a character....


Dear god shut up. I'm 100% positive they have more than 5 guys on their team testing heroes at a time, and testing multiple heroes at a time. And you'd think that people that live and breathe this game would know what feels good and what works and what doesn't.

If you want to be the one to mess up a character then go work for blizzard.

Cause what it sounds like is you want a PTR version of a game where they have several heroes up at all times and people vote on how the hero should be. Yeah that sounds fair and fun for everyone.

I am legitimately convinced this is the dumbest thing someone could have said in response to what THE SENIOR GAME DESIGNER said.

The notion that the developers and designers aren't ACTUAL PLAYERS, shows clear signs of severe brain damage.

And they actually do give us the chance to play with reworks. THAT'S LITERALLY THE WHOLE POINT OF THE PUBLIC TEST REALM
07/28/2017 11:14 AMPosted by MattVi
I'd like to think this goes without saying, but I'll say it anyway just in case: when designing heroes we care very much about hitting their fantasy.

One reason a hero might deviate from what you expect them to do is the translation process into our game. We have to make the gameplay good first and foremost, and for one reason or another there will inevitably be something we can't include.

As an example, during Malthael's development several people on the team expressed a desire to see moves from his D3 boss fight that didn't make it in. We see this a lot with boss fights, and the issue is usually that Boss abilities are specifically designed to be avoidable, so they tend not to fit into a PvP game. In Heroes I want my moves to be fairly reliable, at least enough that I can predict how my target will move and have a good chance of hitting them. And yes sometimes we can adapt these abilities to feel good in our game, but not always (ex: because they'd lose too much of what makes them cool, or would be identical to another ability in the game).

There are also issues like visual clarity to consider. When you have 10 heroes on the screen all using Heroic abilities, it's problematic to have one ability that floods the battlefield and requires all of your focus to deal with (as you would in a boss fight). We're also trying to be more careful about how many units a hero can summon, because while it's cool from a fantasy-perspective a swarm of HP bars on the screen can quickly destroy battlefield readability.

Finally and perhaps the biggest challenge we face (at least in terms of the passionate opinions about fantasy we see here) is that everyone has their own idea of what a hero's fantasy actually is. If I asked 100 of you to send me a design for Garrosh, I'd get 100 different responses, all with good reasons for why you feel he should be that way. We have our own vision that we come to after a lot of discussion within the team, and it's almost guaranteed that there will be people who disagree with it. The more iconic and memorable the hero, and the more different forms they can appear in throughout our games, the greater the chance this will happen.

One of the first things we have to figure out when we decide to make a hero is "which version are we doing?". Is Kael'thas the Warcraft 3 version? The Tempest Keep version? The Magister's Terrace version? Does he draw inspiration from all of them? Likewise with Garrosh, who appeared across 5 different WoW expansions, we talked about which version to draw primary inspiration from and which elements of others we might want to include. The result you see is what we felt like was the best version of Garrosh for our game.

You may not always agree with us when it comes to hero fantasy, and that's totally fair, but know that it's very important to us to do a hero's fantasy justice to the greatest extent that we're able within the framework of our game.


you guys gave to Garrosh the Warboss Kit from dawn of War 2 retribution + Tiny Toss, there is something better than that

Besides stompin humies, scallywags and pointy eared pansies in da nexus

edit: pirate skin with patrick doing this again when?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0TQWz1_uSNU
<span class="truncated">...</span>

how about you let the Players Decide what they think is fun and fits more ? and let us test these Total Reworks and original ideas that seems like are Playable and working because you guys actualy playing with the char before totaly redesigning it into something BAD ?

just because that 5 man from the devs does not enjoy it doesent mean its not enjoyable to houndreds of thousends of other ACTUAL PLAYERS you make this game for to begin with.....

Let us SEE these ideas befor you guys dramaticaly change it and mess up a character....


Dear god shut up. I'm 100% positive they have more than 5 guys on their team testing heroes at a time, and testing multiple heroes at a time. And you'd think that people that live and breathe this game would know what feels good and what works and what doesn't.

If you want to be the one to mess up a character then go work for blizzard.

Cause what it sounds like is you want a PTR version of a game where they have several heroes up at all times and people vote on how the hero should be. Yeah that sounds fair and fun for everyone.

I am legitimately convinced this is the dumbest thing someone could have said in response to what THE SENIOR GAME DESIGNER said.

The notion that the developers and designers aren't ACTUAL PLAYERS, shows clear signs of severe brain damage.

And they actually do give us the chance to play with reworks. THAT'S LITERALLY THE WHOLE POINT OF THE PUBLIC TEST REALM


huh another blind person.....

1. they showed they dont give a fu... about our responses in the Public test realm... when they release something there its a good 99% chance that they decided allready it stays like that no matter our feedback....

2. more interaction with players is a good thing why you think is bad i have no idea..

3. if hundreds and thousends of players come together all with their own ideas there will be ALLOT of ideas they will agree on TOGETHER... and gives ideas to devs that THAT idea right there would be a good idea when the majority realy likes it.... they make the games for use to begin with anyway.... seriously half the community here could have designed garrosh better...

4. stop being a whiteknight.....
07/28/2017 02:35 PMPosted by MattVi
My one regret is that I think we were overly worried about similarity to Gazlowe and went too restrictive on his ability to build Cannons. I think this is something we could do more with once we have some time to update him.


This makes me very happy, I think it was overblown how much a concern that was. Tons of characters are similar in how they do things but different enough in total execution.

Jaina and KT are very similar, they have cc in their kit they have an aoe ability they have a directional skill shot and comboing in their kits but they're not really considered that close to eachother even though they fit pretty well in the same design space.
07/28/2017 02:35 PMPosted by MattVi
07/28/2017 02:05 PMPosted by pbVax
When I heard that they are bring a SC probe to the Nexus, I was so excited by the potential of doing a cannon rush or having pylons occasionally warp in some zealot minions.

Believe it or not we actually tried this sort of kit first, and it didn't work out very well. It was kind of like playing Abathur without his Q ability. It was cool for a couple of games, but the novelty wore off very quickly =(

I think what we ended up with gives him a much more active playstyle and lots of room for mastery, while still being very builder/setup focused. My one regret is that I think we were overly worried about similarity to Gazlowe and went too restrictive on his ability to build Cannons. I think this is something we could do more with once we have some time to update him.


I just wished a Zealot summon had been one of his Ults, just for how cool it would have looked, but I like the end product well enough still. A lot of forward planning and positioning strategy. He's still fun even if I wish he had a 1-2 different abilities.

I'm patiently waiting for Selendis to hopefully fill that Void :)
07/28/2017 08:43 AMPosted by FeralChaos
Tassadar.

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