Which heroes have a kit does not fit into their fantasy?

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07/28/2017 05:13 PMPosted by TwistedBlack
Why is everyone suddenly getting hung up over tanks 'protecting the weak' now?

Does Diablo? Does Anub'arak? Does Arthas? What about Leoric? Stitches? Dehaka?

They're not tanks because they're friendly, helpful people, they're tanks because they're big, beefy dudes that can take a punch, and belong in the fray.

That's why Garrosh is a tank, too. Because he's durable as !@#$. Look at his fight with Thrall - dude took Doomhammer to the head, twice, without barely flinching. That's like 20 pounds of granite smacking him in the skull.

Dude's durable. Dude's strong. Dude never backs down from a fight.

And thus, he's a tank.


Thing is he dished out as much as he took. Frequently. Thus, he's a bruiser.

Tanks in HotS are like heal-less supports from other MOBAs, they exist to set up kills for the heroes that can actually do damage or peel for them. That's definitely not the role for garrosh.

But as I said many times in many other threads, my problem with garrosh isn't necessarily that he's a tank, it's that he shares no similar combat techniques with his WoW character, when other popular and fleshed out WC characters do.
07/28/2017 03:37 PMPosted by FreeBirdFly
I mean the fact that You were aware of him being flawed fantasy wise but pushed him anyway. There surely must be a way of designing builder hero to be satisfying but also not passive in playstyle. And even if not, aren't You allowed discard a hero if translation into moba doesn't work out?

We don't see his fantasy as flawed. When we realized the pure builder angle wasn't working out, we took a step back and approached him from a different perspective, and we're very satisfied with the result.

You may not feel the same way. Maybe the fantasy you expected for him was very different, or there's something you feel is very important that's missing, and that's totally fair! But that difference of opinion shouldn't lead to speculation that we must have been forced to release a hero we weren't happy with against our will. We stand by our work and are proud of every hero we release.
I mean, what would you really give him? Most of the time he just sort of brawled with people, and 90% of his abilities in his boss fight were just Old God shenanigans and Iron Stars.

And honestly, I'm glad those weren't included. I, personally, wanted Garrosh as a big ol' brawler, not tossing giant explosives out of nowhere at people...and, honestly, the Y'shaarj powerup kind of spoiled things. He felt cooler when he was fighting of his own merit, not getting propped up by an Old God. I wanted Garrosh in his prime, standing tall on his own.

That said, I'm a little sad there wasn't a group buff thrown in somewhere, either in his abilities or his talents, as a reference to the Warsong buff he gave in ICC and to the guys you fight in Siege.

As for whether or not he can deal damage yet remains to be seen. As far as I know, he's got some pretty decent damage talents.
07/28/2017 11:14 AMPosted by MattVi
One of the first things we have to figure out when we decide to make a hero is "which version are we doing?". Is Kael'thas the Warcraft 3 version? The Tempest Keep version? The Magister's Terrace version? Does he draw inspiration from all of them? Likewise with Garrosh, who appeared across 5 different WoW expansions, we talked about which version to draw primary inspiration from and which elements of others we might want to include. The result you see is what we felt like was the best version of Garrosh for our game.


Some character change significantly during their lifespan, i understand the dificult of choosing what version of a charafter, but i wonder, can we see different versions of the same character as separated playable characters? (like ghost Kerrigan, paladin Arthas, mortal Tyrael)
07/28/2017 05:30 PMPosted by TwistedBlack
I mean, what would you really give him? Most of the time he just sort of brawled with people, and 90% of his abilities in his boss fight were just Old God shenanigans and Iron Stars.

And honestly, I'm glad those weren't included. I, personally, wanted Garrosh as a big ol' brawler, not tossing giant explosives out of nowhere at people...and, honestly, the Y'shaarj powerup kind of spoiled things. He felt cooler when he was fighting of his own merit, not getting propped up by an Old God. I wanted Garrosh in his prime, standing tall on his own.

That said, I'm a little sad there wasn't a group buff thrown in somewhere, either in his abilities or his talents, as a reference to the Warsong buff he gave in ICC and to the guys you fight in Siege.

As for whether or not he can deal damage yet remains to be seen. As far as I know, he's got some pretty decent damage talents.


Like you said, he's a brawler. I would have like to see the abilities he displayed in his fighting cinematics turned into 2-3 abilities in his kit. Punching, raging, overpowering swings, and leaping strikes for instance.
07/28/2017 03:10 PMPosted by Griffin
07/28/2017 02:39 PMPosted by Virgil
The one hero that I think does not live up to its fantasy, and I hate to say this because I like it the way it is, is Probius. Probes, as I play them in SC, don't detonate warp rifts on enemy units to damage them (or participate in combat at all unless things are going bad).


What if . . . .

Q: build something
W: build something
E: build something

1: use/target Q item
2: use/target W item
3: use/target E item


This would be an interesting way of approaching a builder hero, and something they still could apply to the Overmind or (the lesser choice for a hero like this) Arcturus Mengsk, if they add either of them to the game in the future.
Yeah, can't argue with that. ...Should've made the Body Check thing just a fist to the face, honestly.

That, and even I'll admit the groundbreaker animation is weird. Neat concept, but really weird for Garrosh.
You should realise Grommash and show to community that you can create a tru Hellscream who knows how to handle Gorehowl.
I actually think his fantasy is pretty good for Garrosh - I just think his autoattack animations have trouble conveying eg. what you see in the Thrall vs Garrosh trailer. His skills (other than maybe groundbreaker) do, just not the autos - he uses no footwork and just seems to flail a bit with the weapon.

However, I think he is more than fine as a warrior able to take a lot of punishment. He has never ever displayed that he has his father's skill with the axe or his fighting style. He's more like a brawler with a weapon everytime you see him.
I love Garrosh's kit, but the kit doesn't fit him at all. You know what famous hero would fit the role? Cairne Bloodhoof

In WC3 the 2 most iconic things from him where the slam against the ground using his axe to make a shockwave and the AOE stun, the War Stomp that the Tauren have now in wow as a racial ability.

You could have choose him to wear this kit, just change the animation of Decimate to make it look like a war stomp instead of a whirlwind.

Now, about a fitting Garrosh's kit, there are a lot of fan creations out there, but I think everyone can agree that one of his ults should be Sha related and the other Iron horde related (a giant iron star or something)

I mean, the biggest disappointment about this hero is that the 2 most iconic things about him, visually speaking, are not present in the animations of his kit, nothing Y'shaarj related and not a single reference to the Iron Horde.

On top of that the obvious skins for him (Grommash skin or Sha Infested Garrosh skin) are nowhere to be seen, you just made a Mad Max version of him, don't get me wrong, it looks cool, but you could have killed two birds with one stone by releasing Garrosh with a Grommash skin.

I will pray to Elune really hard in hopes that you don't f* up Kel'Thuzad.
07/28/2017 06:08 PMPosted by Hipnos
Now, about a fitting Garrosh's kit, there are a lot of fan creations out there, but I think everyone can agree that one of his ults should be Sha related and the other Iron horde related (a giant iron star or something)

I mean, the biggest disappointment about this hero is that the 2 most iconic things about him, visually speaking, are not present in the animations of his kit, nothing Y'shaarj related and not a single reference to the Iron Horde.

Couldn't disagree more. The one flavor direction Blizzard succeeded with here is that his kit is just Garrosh, not Old God-corrupted Garrosh, not Garrosh with Goblin tech. Just Garrosh.
07/28/2017 06:08 PMPosted by Hipnos
I love Garrosh's kit, but the kit doesn't fit him at all. You know what famous hero would fit the role? Cairne Bloodhoof

In WC3 the 2 most iconic things from him where the slam against the ground using his axe to make a shockwave and the AOE stun, the War Stomp that the Tauren have now in wow as a racial ability.

You could have choose him to wear this kit, just change the animation of Decimate to make it look like a war stomp instead of a whirlwind.

Now, about a fitting Garrosh's kit, there are a lot of fan creations out there, but I think everyone can agree that one of his ults should be Sha related and the other Iron horde related (a giant iron star or something)

I mean, the biggest disappointment about this hero is that the 2 most iconic things about him, visually speaking, are not present in the animations of his kit, nothing Y'shaarj related and not a single reference to the Iron Horde.

On top of that the obvious skins for him (Grommash skin or Sha Infested Garrosh skin) are nowhere to be seen, you just made a Mad Max version of him, don't get me wrong, it looks cool, but you could have killed two birds with one stone by releasing Garrosh with a Grommash skin.

I will pray to Elune really hard in hopes that you don't f* up Kel'Thuzad.


Like the blue said earlier in the thread, they have to choose which time period to take a hero from, since characters change over time. This version of garrosh from cataclysm it seems, so it's just garrosh and his axe. That's why I've been recommending abilities based on his fighting style when he had no outside help from old gods or machinery.
07/28/2017 03:57 PMPosted by Flinx
07/28/2017 03:55 PMPosted by uGeeGee
Dear lore nerds:

This is HotS, its own game, and the heroes in it are their own version of that character. Deal with it.


We are dealing with it...

Our method of dealing is to post on the forums.


That's not dealing with it, it's rejecting it and being upset over something that cannot be changed. Dealing with it would be accepting it at the very least, and maybe being happy about what Garrosh can bring as a hero to this game.
Arthas' kit feels too much like his pre-Lich King self to do his fantasy justice.

His kit is more like a generic DeathKnight with sindragosa tacked on, which isn't much of a problem in and of itself.

It's a very fun kit, it works functionally and fills a niche, and is balanced and relevant, but if doing the fantasy of the Lich King justice is your goal, than the kit art has has should go to a different DeathKnight, or the hero should be officially a DeathKnight Arthas, with the Lich King being a skin.

The Lich King is the incredibly powerful combination of an empowered, tortured orc's mind and magic, a fallen prince educated in battle and war, and a legendary soul-stealing sword of immense power, all designed to fit together as an undeafetable weapon for the legion, and to do that justice would need a 'gimmick' so to speak similar to Ragnaros to give The Lich King that feeling of might while staying balanced.

Arthas right now is a fun but old hero, with an outdated model and an engaging but tragically ordinary kit, which i think we can all agree does not do the iconic Lich King justice.
07/28/2017 06:42 PMPosted by uGeeGee
07/28/2017 03:57 PMPosted by Flinx
...

We are dealing with it...

Our method of dealing is to post on the forums.


That's not dealing with it, it's rejecting it and being upset over something that cannot be changed. Dealing with it would be accepting it at the very least, and maybe being happy about what Garrosh can bring as a hero to this game.


Who's saying it can't be changed?
07/28/2017 06:42 PMPosted by uGeeGee
<span class="truncated">...</span>

We are dealing with it...

Our method of dealing is to post on the forums.


That's not dealing with it, it's rejecting it and being upset over something that cannot be changed. Dealing with it would be accepting it at the very least, and maybe being happy about what Garrosh can bring as a hero to this game.


you know its easy to deal with and accept stuff as a Whiteknight... sory but we wont accept Trash thrown in our face just because it comes from a dev that we somewhat like....

ALSO:
IT CAN BE CHANGED it all comes down of the willingness of the devs to do it....
And that the devs to care even a LITTLE about its player base opinion.....
07/28/2017 06:11 PMPosted by Taroshima
Couldn't disagree more. The one flavor direction Blizzard succeeded with here is that his kit is just Garrosh, not Old God-corrupted Garrosh, not Garrosh with Goblin tech. Just Garrosh.


Here here. Garrosh doesn't need tech or an old god propping him up.
I think blizzard has completely missed what the community was yearning for when Garrosh was announced. Garrosh is a warrior, a rage filled monster wanting to rip apart his enemies, not a helping hand for his team. Literally nothing supports this idea. At no point during World of Warcraft was he this calm and tame orc. Everything about this kit that Garrosh was given wasn't designed for him, it was designed for a different character. Imagine putting this entire kit on a character like Mannoroth, a pit lord. It would simply fit the fantasy better than Garrosh because it makes more sense thematically, not because we wanted a different "kind" of Garrosh. It is almost guaranteed that in the future Blizzard will add a Gromm skin for Garrosh since they'd both look very similar and both wield Gorehowl. So how does this kit fit for Gromm? In Warcraft and in Hearthstone he is a war hungry orc. So would he walk up to people and smack them pitifully one handed with Gorehowl? Chuck his friends away for his team to deal with?

Additionally, I want to see how many others would agree with me here on what his kit SHOULD'VE been like:

Resource: Rage (Generated off of auto attacks and kills)
Basic 1: Rend (Ticking Damage over Time, DOT)
Basic 2: Hamstring (Slowing Attack that deals initial damage)
Basic 3: Mortal Strike (Medium damage short cooldown ability used to dump rage)
Heroic 1: Execute (Similar to how execute works in WoW, massive damage to targets under 20%)
Heroic 2: Howl of Terror (Area of Effect, AoE, fear around Garrosh)
Matt, dude... You guys are all about the cool factor in WoW, why did you not give Garrosh a Y'shaarj skin? Is all I want. Like, I might even say I want that on the level as I want Kel'thuzad. I've been waiting for this my entire life.

Would you tell your artists to make an Old God skin if I tell you it's my birthday? *winky face*
07/28/2017 07:15 PMPosted by KingOfRage
I think blizzard has completely missed what the community was yearning for when Garrosh was announced. Garrosh is a warrior, a rage filled monster wanting to rip apart his enemies, not a helping hand for his team. Literally nothing supports this idea. At no point during World of Warcraft was he this calm and tame orc. Everything about this kit that Garrosh was given wasn't designed for him, it was designed for a different character. Imagine putting this entire kit on a character like Mannoroth, a pit lord. It would simply fit the fantasy better than Garrosh because it makes more sense thematically, not because we wanted a different "kind" of Garrosh. It is almost guaranteed that in the future Blizzard will add a Gromm skin for Garrosh since they'd both look very similar and both wield Gorehowl. So how does this kit fit for Gromm? In Warcraft and in Hearthstone he is a war hungry orc. So would he walk up to people and smack them pitifully one handed with Gorehowl? Chuck his friends away for his team to deal with?

Additionally, I want to see how many others would agree with me here on what his kit SHOULD'VE been like:

Resource: Rage (Generated off of auto attacks and kills)
Basic 1: Rend (Ticking Damage over Time, DOT)
Basic 2: Hamstring (Slowing Attack that deals initial damage)
Basic 3: Mortal Strike (Medium damage short cooldown ability used to dump rage)
Heroic 1: Execute (Similar to how execute works in WoW, massive damage to targets under 20%)
Heroic 2: Howl of Terror (Area of Effect, AoE, fear around Garrosh)


Howl of terror is the warlock ability. You're looking for intimidating shout.

No, that's also a kit that could fit with any warcraft warrior. Look at what garrosh did in game and in the books, how he fought, how he could be savage and bloodthirsty or skillful and cunning depending on the fight.

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