Remove Junkrat's Basic Attacks?

General Discussion
He would get some sort of counter-buff to make up for it, ofc!

But even so, I'm using Junk mostly as an example for the concept of a hero without basic attacks.
I mean, sure, if anyone has any good idea on how to adapt Junkrat into a hero without basic attacks (current ones seem useless anyway), I'm all ears!
But do you think if Junkrat should get that treatment, or should it be reserved for a future hero, and what do you think about the concept of a hero without basic attacks?
Like the Gall half of Cho'gall?
Abathur is, for all intents and purposes, a hero without an autoattack; his AA is used only as a last resort when he's cornered or as a finisher when no other sources of damage are available.

Same goes for Gall.
Those two are kinda special beasts, tbh.
i think too in his current state q should be his basic attacks, and the new one should be shotegun(all basic attacks in one shot, but dont loose his charges for the new basic attacks),
he just have 2 traps and ulti, he need something, he lost his place to abathur in winrate last night(dropped 2% points), now he is slightly above medivh
You'd have to rework his Q and Q talents a little but it's entirely doable.
I wanted him to have no basic attacks since I heard he was coming out, it can work to make his basic attacks instead be entirely skillshot based but I don't think they'll do that on a hero just because a hero you can miss everything on would have a winrate that's super duper low.

Maybe they could do it with Hanzo but I dunno.
Give him 6 charges of Q, turn his AA into a melee "swipe." His melee does a tiny 10 damage, but restocks a Q charge instantly.

That way, he only uses AA when he's very close to the enemy (something he should never actually be doing.) His Q effectively becomes his AA.
Since the day 1 it triggers me how his Q can do more damage than his AA. What is basically the same thing lol. Why not.
10/20/2017 05:12 AMPosted by Gonchin
Give him 6 charges of Q, turn his AA into a melee "swipe." His melee does a tiny 10 damage, but restocks a Q charge instantly.

That way, he only uses AA when he's very close to the enemy (something he should never actually be doing.) His Q effectively becomes his AA.

This is a nice idea, tbh!

10/20/2017 03:57 AMPosted by CaiusCain
I wanted him to have no basic attacks since I heard he was coming out, it can work to make his basic attacks instead be entirely skillshot based but I don't think they'll do that on a hero just because a hero you can miss everything on would have a winrate that's super duper low.

Maybe they could do it with Hanzo but I dunno.

Similar here.
Though I do have a feel Hanzo will have Stukov-style of basic attacks (super slow, super strong), but ranged (ofc), with his Q being a powerful skill-shot with a wind-up.
I like the fact that OW heroes have their Q (or W in Tracer's case) as a "secondary fire", mostly as an AoE version of their AA. It's pretty flexible as a functionality so I would keep Junkrat as he is but I like your idea, I hope we'll get some heroes with this design.
So a hero with one damage ability, one mine and one trap is supposed to lose his basic attacks.

What's he going to do when Q reloads? Twiddle his thumbs?

Is he supposed to have zero wave clear?
We actually tried this during his development, first with no Basic Attack at all, then a Melee BA, then finally the Ranged one he has today.

We've tried doing Heroes with no BA a couple of times now, and it always ends up feeling awkward. You can't kill Scouting Drones, Blackheart's treasure chests become exceptionally difficult to open... But most importantly, it feels bad when you need to do that last little bit of damage (ex: Minion with a sliver of HP) to something and have to waste an ability CD/resource to do it. This holds true even for Heroes with relatively short CDs and few or no resource constraints.

For Junkrat, we stuck with the Melee BA for a while, but the rate at which we had to let him spam his Q in order for that to feel OK made him exhausting to play against - Grenade dodging fatigue was a real thing when he could shoot them almost constantly. His Q being so spammy also took away most of the decision making from using it. Increasing the CD on Q charges and filling the gap with a Ranged BA made him more engaging to play both as and against.
10/23/2017 10:35 AMPosted by MattVi
Grenade dodging fatigue was a real thing when he could shoot them almost constantly. His Q being so spammy also took away most of the decision making from using it.


So, basically OW Junkrat in a nutshell haha. I'm glad you went the route you did, Junks nade spam is already a bit irritating.
10/23/2017 10:35 AMPosted by MattVi
For Junkrat, we stuck with the Melee BA for a while, but the rate at which we had to let him spam his Q in order for that to feel OK made him exhausting to play against - Grenade dodging fatigue was a real thing when he could shoot them almost constantly. His Q being so spammy also took away most of the decision making from using it. Increasing the CD on Q charges and filling the gap with a Ranged BA made him more engaging to play both as and against.


The spam is still real when he specs that tripple shot. I am VERY glad you didn't allow it more often on a shorter cooldown. The lanes he occupied would have been inaccessible to low health, less mobile heroes.

Junkrat is lower down in my top ten reasons for not playing Overwatch anymore (after hundreds of hours of game time) and I'm happy with the current Junkrat in HotS.

EDIT: You guys did a great job of capturing his amazing character in this game. My favorite part of Junkrat is perfectly represented here.
Does it matter? Junkrat is a weak character, he's good against teams that group but that's really it
10/23/2017 10:35 AMPosted by MattVi
We've tried doing Heroes with no BA a couple of times now, and it always ends up feeling awkward
that's really interesting. I came with a concept for Rastakhan, just for fun, and suggested that one of his abilities was to carry a serpent totem that constantly spits on nearby enemies for low damage. While the main mechanical reason to do it is because he lacks of mobility and it would help against mounts (not to mention the fantasy reasons). He still kept the basic attacks but I wanted to bring it as discussion for a hero with no "auto attacks" but a REAL "auto" attack, where it will just hit automatically and player do not have total control over it. Maybe applying rules like "only attacks while not moving" or "only attack if both are in sight of each other", "prioritize heroes". (for reference: https://www.heroesfire.com/hots/concept/king-rastakhan-8229)
10/23/2017 10:35 AMPosted by MattVi
We actually tried this during his development, first with no Basic Attack at all, then a Melee BA, then finally the Ranged one he has today.

We've tried doing Heroes with no BA a couple of times now, and it always ends up feeling awkward. You can't kill Scouting Drones, Blackheart's treasure chests become exceptionally difficult to open... But most importantly, it feels bad when you need to do that last little bit of damage (ex: Minion with a sliver of HP) to something and have to waste an ability CD/resource to do it. This holds true even for Heroes with relatively short CDs and few or no resource constraints.

For Junkrat, we stuck with the Melee BA for a while, but the rate at which we had to let him spam his Q in order for that to feel OK made him exhausting to play against - Grenade dodging fatigue was a real thing when he could shoot them almost constantly. His Q being so spammy also took away most of the decision making from using it. Increasing the CD on Q charges and filling the gap with a Ranged BA made him more engaging to play both as and against.

Thanks for the reply!

Out of curiosity, who were your other candidates for a hero without basic attacks?
Morales?
10/23/2017 02:34 PMPosted by Lithary
Out of curiosity, who were your other candidates for a hero without basic attacks?
Morales?

Prior to Junkrat, Probius is probably the next most recent case. There was a question as to whether he actually needed a Basic Attack, since his cooldowns are so short and he has nearly unlimited mana. It's true that he rarely uses his BA, but even so it feels good to be able to use it when you need it - plus his little zap is just the cutest thing ever >_>
10/23/2017 03:37 PMPosted by MattVi
10/23/2017 02:34 PMPosted by Lithary
Out of curiosity, who were your other candidates for a hero without basic attacks?
Morales?

Prior to Junkrat, Probius is probably the next most recent case. There was a question as to whether he actually needed a Basic Attack, since his cooldowns are so short and he has nearly unlimited mana. It's true that he rarely uses his BA, but even so it feels good to be able to use it when you need it - plus his little zap is just the cutest thing ever >_>


Well I definitely disagree with your philosophy. As a point, Junkrat is considered one of the worst heroes right now, with the lowest win rate not counting Medivh who has an excuse for being as low as he is.. being that he requires a coordinated team to make him work. Junkrat is not that kind of hero, and it's baffling to see his win rate as low as it is.

Maybe you should reconsider and make him a little more spammy. Okay, keep the stupid auto attack if you want, even though it's rarely used thanks to his low health pool.. but at least make him feel more like Overwatch Junk. His long CD and only 4 grenades makes it feel more like an ability than the spammy junkrat he is supposed to be.

He needs a buff, so give him the buff that'll make him feel more like his counterpart, hmm? A bit disappointed with him as of now.

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