"yes, we’ve considered what an MMR reset would mean."

General Discussion
04/14/2018 07:52 AMPosted by MetalDtector
04/14/2018 07:28 AMPosted by JusticeCrash
Gotta love these armchair developer topics, especially they are so painfully wrong.


I guess people are downvoting OP because they somehow think he made up those answers.

The source is https://www.reddit.com/r/heroesofthestorm/comments/8c1rty/full_list_of_answers_from_blizzard_from_the_qa/

That text isn't from armchair developers, it's from the game devs themselves.
You realize that there's an entire post right under the quoted part, right? You know, the big-long explanation on how resetting MMR could work? Yeah, that's the armchair developer part.
04/15/2018 09:31 AMPosted by Fluffypaws
04/15/2018 08:50 AMPosted by Urza
The problem isnt really whether or not you climb, but how long it takes you to climb.
At the mid diamond level I find that about 50% of my matches have a ~lvl 100 smurf in them. The number of games where I can carry that dead weight is not very large, and its frustrating to have so little control over whether I win or lose. On the flip side, the other 50% of games have a smurf on the enemy team whom we stomp without trying.


Isn't that the exact reason why they looked into the personal rank adjustment thing in the first place. To speed that up to have better matches all around.


I mean, yes, and no, and I think you mean PBMMR. Sure PBMMR will help move accounts to where they're supposed to be faster, but it wont do anything to fix the issues with placements.

New accounts, whether they're smurfs or actual newbies, are placed too high and too low all the time. PBMMR wont do anything to fix that, because when someone is dissatisfied with their old smurf that fell in rank they can just make a new smurf with which to ruin our games.

They claimed they're making it so that you can only smurf as high as Plat5, which I guess is a step in the right direction. As it is right now the ladder essentially only starts at D2. Everything below D2 has the chance for you to get a Bronze5-skilled player on a smurf account.
I can't disagree with the logic but there's also the issue of matchmaking, if all losing does is increase the chance of matchmaking putting you in a game with the same losers I don't think people realize there's nothing fair about that.
04/15/2018 12:16 AMPosted by tonipoda
Most games (who dont try) places all newcomers at the middle of the ladder. So that those who lose can actually fall.

If you place people to start at bronze5, then losing won't make you fall. You can lose 1000 games in a row and then win 10 in a row, and u have actually climbed and done well.


That doesn't matter though.

Hearthstone starts you off at rank 25 (the lowest in the game) and you have to climb to 20, you don't lose rank until you hit 19. The first few ranks are there to make you feel good and encourage you to keep playing the game. You get a sense of actual progression.

WoW starts you off at a rating of 0, and you have to climb to 1500 which is the "average" or 2200+ to get rewards.

The preseason of HotS had some minor placements but if you got ranked at 50, you couldn't fall. If you climbed to 45, you still couldn't fall. You didn't lose rank at all until you hit rank 39.

Turns out being able to "instantly fall in rank" is pointless an unnecessary. Almost like it's good to have a bottom to put all the low skilled players or something.
The top 1% are in masters, and the top few hundred of that tiny 1% are GM's.


Can you, in any way, prove this claim to be true? Or is this just something that you have a hunch is correct?
04/15/2018 03:50 AMPosted by Moonshadow
The problem is not the placement match, it is the ammount. The game needs around 80 games to properly gauge your MMR. 10 is nowhere near enough. What should be done is increase the number of them before you get a league and high certainty matches, not remove them.


Agreed. Though that will never happen because nobody wants to do 80 games to finally get a rank shown on their profile.

So the best way to get around that is to just skip the placements and have a natural progression. You'll be where you deserve to be after 80 games without placements. You'll get to see a lot of promotions and have a big long climb.

It's a lot more enjoyable than getting placed perfectly then just hovering over d3 for the rest of eternity.

04/15/2018 03:50 AMPosted by Moonshadow
A MMR reset wont do much good in the long run. Having several weeks of bad MMR will probably kill the game off. It is bad enough we went through 4 seasons of bad MM. Another 2 would be the end of it.


Wrong. Every season has been bad MM and the game is still around. Turns out you can't get worse than rock bottom. There are already bronze scrub accounts as high as d1 or d2 right now. The MM and lower leagues are already chaos. It's really not fair that you essentially have to get into a master rank just to get a decent matchmaking experience. Master leagues should be a reward for being a high caliber player. Not the bottom friggin line where you first finally stop seeing bronze players. We already have a rank for "Hey no more bronze players" it's called Silver.

I'm just making that chaos get regulated and put into the bottom most rank where it belongs.

04/15/2018 04:04 AMPosted by Sandwich
It amazes me that so many people care enough to fight and complain about what color the shiny graphic on their screen is.


I don't care about what color the shiny graphic on my screen is but apparently everyone else is fighting tooth and nail for it. OMG I JUST CLIMBED INTO DIAMOND I WOULD TOTALLY QUIT IF MMR WAS RESET!

I want matchmaking to not be a joke. I want people who are around my skill level to always be matched with me. I'm tired of seeing smurfs constantly luck their way into my games. Having bronze players as high as diamond, hell sometimes low master, is ridiculous. I should not have to be a GM to be rid of them. I want the lower ranks such as silver, gold, plat to have actual meaning.

04/15/2018 05:37 AMPosted by DocDente
I don't know who said this but he surely is ignorant, expecially in elementary math.

Master and Grand Master makes how much? 1% of the community? 3% of the community?

Saying that they might boost someone involuntarily it's like saying "You might get struck by a meteorite" - The possibility of being boosted by masters in subsequent matches is so microspic that it might not even happen.

Who's this guy? For the love of Jesus, I will seriously teach him math for free.

Edit: Oh, nevermind, it's the lead designer. The guy WHO LITERALLY RUINED THE GAME. My fault then, I should've known better.


My thoughts exactly. Someone in this very topic even tried to use the same excuse, likely because they were too lazy to actually read a post before complaining about it.

People in this community, including the devs, just hate logic apparently.

04/15/2018 06:47 AMPosted by Drothvader
1) They already are, PBMMR is disabled for Masters and Grandmasters

2) PBMMR doesn't use confidence values, or what you think of confidence values in a traditional sense. The system doesn't need it. It's already confident you either belong where you are or you don't belong where you are based on your performance.

The only area where PBMMR was ever a problem was Master because Master games don't fit into the norm and there's so few players to set a standard. Below that, you can generally tell who is performing well by looking at their stat contributions. At the Master level, this gets really fuzzy at best.


That's too high. It's only showcasing the issue and backing up my point if you have to wait as high as masters to disable that system. Because you're essentially saying everyone below that rank is a bronze level smurf in a rank they don't belong, so they need a PBMMR system to separate the people who do belong in that rank away from those that don't.

If you actually fixed the league system and made all the leagues meaningful again you would only need to use it for bronze, silver, and gold players. OW only uses it as high as platinum, but there's more importance to micro and potential to carry in that game than in HotS where the macro game is far more important.

I literally don't care what your stats are in a gold game. If you aren't where you need to be you are the reason your team is losing.
04/15/2018 07:25 AMPosted by Persone
It's a horrible idea and the closest thing to socialism in a video game. People are already complaining that placements put people too high, and now you're going to stuff bronzies with diamonds and masters in the same games for months? This is a time when I thank God that Blizzard doesn't listen to the forums.


Socialism is what we got now. If you're bronze, you get to be in diamond! You get to play a quick RNG game to see if you on on a winstreak of masters! Bronze in gold as well! Bronze in plat! Bronze bronze everywhere! Rank is meaningless! Placements are all that matters!

Diamond and master players won't be stuck in the same game for "months". You aren't a master player if you can't climb out of bronze in 1 day. The reason the game is in such a sad state right now is because the lead devs are already thinking like you.

04/15/2018 08:50 AMPosted by Urza
04/15/2018 08:26 AMPosted by Fluffypaws
Of course if you do play better than you ever have you will likely climb anyway without needing a reset.


The problem isnt really whether or not you climb, but how long it takes you to climb.
At the mid diamond level I find that about 50% of my matches have a ~lvl 100 smurf in them. The number of games where I can carry that dead weight is not very large, and its frustrating to have so little control over whether I win or lose. On the flip side, the other 50% of games have a smurf on the enemy team whom we stomp without trying. I'm not here to play !@#$%^-ed roulette.


Exactly. Bronze level smurfs in diamond games ruin matchmaking. It's a lot harder to carry that game, than to start at the bottom where everyone is bronze but you and carry your team to a win. It feels like it's harder to climb right now because there's too many smurfs in the game. It won't be nearly as bad once you remove them from the equation.

The person you quoted said "well people would just climb back to where they belong anyways" and yeah that's the truth. That's why we need a mmr reset. People who deserve to be in their ranks, will get there. It's the millions of smurf accounts who need to fall where they belong. And stay there permanently with no way to abuse a placement system ever again on new accounts.

04/15/2018 09:17 AMPosted by Sinclairlim
TL;DR

Blizz: "We've considered doing X, but by doing X it would make everything worse"
OP: "Blizz is dumb, instead of doing X, they should do X"

Yes, the variable is the same.


No, it's not. Because I said they need to do X, Y, and Z. Not just X.
I don't see how resetting MMR would be an issue.

The 'good' players will naturally rise to the top, and quickly at that, because they have so much experience at this point.
I never said that people wouldn't climb. I said that the lower the skill difference between the player and Bronze 5, the longer they'll take to climb. This should be pretty obvious: if you completely outclass your opponents, then you can easily carry your entire team. But the smaller the difference, the greater the likelihood that you're unable to make up for your team's mistakes. This, in turn, means more losses, and a longer time before you arrive to your "proper" skill level. Assuming you don't give up entirely out of frustration for yet another season a league or two below where you used to be.


If only there was some performance based mmr system we could use for bronze, silver, and gold players. Hmmm...

A Bronze player is not going to be placed in Diamond. For one, they would need an absurdly high MMR. Doable if you 5-man cheese QM, sure, but how likely are Bronze players to be able to do that? For another, they would need to win the bulk of their placements to get bumped to Diamond. And then have another lucky streak to reach Masters. These are either the luckiest players in the world, or they were never Bronze level in the first place.


Dude it's been done all the time. You are denying people smurfing now? Winning all your placements isn't hard. People go on 10-20+ winstreaks all the time. Usually followed by a 10-20 loss streak. But placements only care about the first 10.

Sure it does. It makes it so that a lucky streak doesn't skyrocket players to where they do not belong. You realize Plat 3 is the highest possible point, yes? If your placements are crap, you won't end up in Plat (or even Gold). Are some players going to end up where they don't belong? Of course, since no system is perfect. But the skill differential between their "true" skill and their rank will be smaller then, which means they won't be as big of a liability to their team.


Plat 3 is too high. It invalidates Silver, Gold, and Plat letting bronze into those ranks with lucky placements.

And under your system, you don't think former gold and silver players won't "feel like crap and that they were dealt an unfair hand" when they have to spend several seasons climbing back to where they were?


Rofl they won't take several seasons if they're actually gold players. A bronzer who snuck into gold, and then is demoted to bronze where they belong might struggle. But that's only proof that the current system has misplaced players into ranks they don't deserve to be in.

Gee, I wonder if there's some sort of difference between Hearthstone and Heroes of the Storm that makes this comparison useless. Maybe something involving the number of people involved in each game? Dunno, I don't play Hearthstone.


The number of players involved doesn't make it useless. It might be a team game but your MMR is still personal. One would think you should personally climb up into ranks and earn them on your own just the same.

04/15/2018 06:15 AMPosted by Madmax
"You always feel like you're progressing" is a very subjective statement. How do you know people share your opinion?


It's not subjective, it is basic facts. Look at the potential outcomes of either case.

One game you start somewhere, and can't fall. You can only rise initially.

The other game you can start somewhere, plateau. Or start somewhere, and fall. Or start somewhere and rise. 3 different outcomes compared to the just 1 outcome of the other game.

That is LITERALLY AN OBJECTIVE FACT that you will have a sense of progression starting at the bottom being forced to rise up. In hots you basically have a 66% chance to plateau or fall given those 3 paths. Very satisfying gameplay huh?

The whole point of a ranked system is to climb. Starting you off with placements ruins the entire sense of progression. It's fine for returning seasons, but your first season should start at the bottom.
Not only placements, but also ranked mode is a joke.

We didint like the old ranked system, so Blizzard went with

"hey lets make ranks 50-40 Bronze, 39-30 Silver, 29-20, Gold, 19-10, Platinum, 9-2 Diamond, 1 Masters, and lets leave Grand Master as it was before. Ow and lets add promo/demo games"

I hardly see any difference.
Currently in Diamond there are literally Bronze players, same way there were Bronze in rank 50-2. Only rank 1 was bronze free, but it was still silver infested.

Now they want to make rank point adjustment into rank point adjustment, favoured adjustment and PRA - where in effect it will be the same under more names.

Blizzard is sales master, they gonna sale you things that dont exists, like the well known "comming soon TM"
Sorry, but you are wrong, and Blizzard is right. Many people have been saying so for as long as there has been a vocal minority clamoring for a placebo MMR reset. It will do very little or absolutely no good, with the vast majority of the players arriving at their previous MMR eventually. It would cause a lot of bad matches for a long time.

It’s an unnecessary and crude solution. They are always looking to improve matchmaking, as all games are, and smashing it and starting over is not and never will be the solution. Changing other aspects without starting over is a far better, useful and viable solution. Which is why it is exactly what they are doing.
I really don’t get the problem. Isn’t Dota resetting the MmR each season? Is there a problem with it?
I wholeheartedly agree with Alu in this.

I'm not a master player, i'm not a diamond player. Every season I've been high plat. I once strayed into diamond but it didn't last long. I'm on Platinum Plateau.

However.

It feels like my games are a complete lottery and I'm struggling to tread water and stay where I am. But not because games are even and I need to play my heart out to keep a 50% win rate.

It's for....other reasons.

Will I get someone that knows what to do or am I getting a smurf that's trying for a diamond+ placement or crashing out of diamond on the way back to silver?

When every other draft can potentially have someone early hover a Dehaka or Sonya only to see 3 assassins picked because "we have a warrior". Or when it feels like everyone falls over themselves to pick Nazeebo or Sylvanas as soon as possible. Where solo support Tyrande stalks the night.

I play every role. I fill. I pick the flavour of the month hero if I'm first pick and it's not banned. I know not to cap a camp if the obj spawns a little later in the cycle and wait the 10-20 secs for max value. I take safe pathing, watch my mini map and don't face check bushes like Trikslyr and Khaldor taught me.

And some games it feels like I'm on an island within my team, cos everyone else is swimming mid lane for the last 5 minutes losing a 3v4.

And I lay the blame solely on placements matches.

For perhaps the first 4 seasons I had good matches. Then the seeding exploits and smurfing became really well publicised and suddenly everyone was doing it.

I feel that if smurfing were taken out of the equation by removing placements for new accounts and possibly by having a hard reset along with it then the ranks would MEAN something. You would be able to expect certain minimum standards from your team mates. Games could be more fun.

This season has been PARTICULARLY bad, and I've really cut down on the amount I play Heroes because of it.

I want to enjoy the game, the ranks, the try harding again. But unless there's a drastic change, which I don't think Peanut Butter Match Making will bring, I can see myself eventually stopping altogether.
04/15/2018 12:52 PMPosted by Shiro
You realize that there's an entire post right under the quoted part, right? You know, the big-long explanation on how resetting MMR could work? Yeah, that's the armchair developer part.


It's not an armchair developer part. It's more of a common sense part. It's using logic, basic math, and past experiences with other games to lead to a solution. I don't see you offering any better solutions? Until then, just shut the hell up. You contribute nothing.

04/15/2018 12:55 PMPosted by Urza
I mean, yes, and no, and I think you mean PBMMR. Sure PBMMR will help move accounts to where they're supposed to be faster, but it wont do anything to fix the issues with placements.

New accounts, whether they're smurfs or actual newbies, are placed too high and too low all the time. PBMMR wont do anything to fix that, because when someone is dissatisfied with their old smurf that fell in rank they can just make a new smurf with which to ruin our games.

They claimed they're making it so that you can only smurf as high as Plat5, which I guess is a step in the right direction. As it is right now the ladder essentially only starts at D2. Everything below D2 has the chance for you to get a Bronze5-skilled player on a smurf account.


Ding ding ding ding. The slate needs to be wiped clean (MMR reset) and the tool of their abuse which caused this mess in the first place needs to be altered (placements for new accounts).

This is what the person I quoted above can't seem to get. Moving the smurfs from Diamond into Plat does nothing to fix the actual problem of smurfs. Gold and Plat do not deserve to be trash tiers. It's a tier where the majority of the player base belong and they don't deserve to have their play experience ruined by an endless barrage of bronze players.

04/15/2018 01:07 PMPosted by KuroShinryu
I can't disagree with the logic but there's also the issue of matchmaking, if all losing does is increase the chance of matchmaking putting you in a game with the same losers I don't think people realize there's nothing fair about that.


If you're losing all your games and you are already at the bottom, why do you have an issue with remaining where you belong? The bottom has to be somewhere. Right now it's in Diamond. Platinum is also unacceptable. We have a bottom league, it's called Bronze. Let's use it.

If smurfs get demoted out ot diamond/plat, they just remake the smurf. If they all have to start in bronze every time then they can no longer abuse placements to sneak where they don't belong. It's a very simple solution to an endless problem we're all facing.

04/17/2018 08:24 AMPosted by OrangeJuice
The top 1% are in masters, and the top few hundred of that tiny 1% are GM's.


Can you, in any way, prove this claim to be true? Or is this just something that you have a hunch is correct?


Yeah Blizzard gave out the numbers themselves. Use google.
04/14/2018 05:59 AMPosted by Alu
The cream will naturally float to the top


10/10 XD
04/17/2018 12:05 PMPosted by Anzao
Not only placements, but also ranked mode is a joke.

We didint like the old ranked system, so Blizzard went with

"hey lets make ranks 50-40 Bronze, 39-30 Silver, 29-20, Gold, 19-10, Platinum, 9-2 Diamond, 1 Masters, and lets leave Grand Master as it was before. Ow and lets add promo/demo games"

I hardly see any difference.
Currently in Diamond there are literally Bronze players, same way there were Bronze in rank 50-2. Only rank 1 was bronze free, but it was still silver infested.

Now they want to make rank point adjustment into rank point adjustment, favoured adjustment and PRA - where in effect it will be the same under more names.

Blizzard is sales master, they gonna sale you things that dont exists, like the well known "comming soon TM"


Agreed. It's all just changing visuals with the illusion that the matchmaking system itself is being changed. But we're still literally using the same MMR that was tainted from the preseason back when 5m premades were allowed to stomp solo players. Like, I'm sorry all these bronze-in-disguise players are crying about my suggestion in the topic but the only way to erase that preseason mistake is to give us a MMR reset.

04/17/2018 12:27 PMPosted by XiChorn
Sorry, but you are wrong, and Blizzard is right. Many people have been saying so for as long as there has been a vocal minority clamoring for a placebo MMR reset. It will do very little or absolutely no good, with the vast majority of the players arriving at their previous MMR eventually. It would cause a lot of bad matches for a long time.

It’s an unnecessary and crude solution. They are always looking to improve matchmaking, as all games are, and smashing it and starting over is not and never will be the solution. Changing other aspects without starting over is a far better, useful and viable solution. Which is why it is exactly what they are doing.


I'm not wrong. Blizzard is wrong and that's why people have a problem with the system. You're also too busy crying about a MMR reset and ignoring the entire placements issue. You can't remove placements for one season if you don't reset everyone's MMR. Otherwise what's the point?

People are also asking for MMR decay, which you won't need if you reset MMR. MMR's tainted from the preseason debacle before the ranked modes were split need to be cleansed.

It's a very simple and elegant solution that fixes several problems at once. I guarantee the community would recover and bounce back within a week or two. You're over exaggerating and fearmongering as if EVERYONE is going to suffer and wallow in bronze forever when that just isn't the case. If you deserve to be gold, or master, or whatever... YOU WILL BEAT THE BRONZE PLAYERS AND CLIMB OUT. THAT IS LITERALLY THE POINT OF A RANKED SYSTEM AND MMR.

It won't take long to climb to where you belong. The only reason you think it will take long is because right now you're biased because you only experienced games filled with people that don't belong in your rank.

Seriously go make a new account right now. Play QM games. That is what it should be like when you're playing in bronze. You can carry those easily even if you're a gold player. It's not hard to win your first 30-60 games. If you're scared you're going to permanently be stuck with those people then maybe you belong there?

04/17/2018 12:50 PMPosted by HeatN
I really don’t get the problem. Isn’t Dota resetting the MmR each season? Is there a problem with it?


There isn't a problem. The only ones scared are bronze players who fear they won't have free diamond or plat rankings.
I have an even better solution... Match people based on HL games played. Don't match people like me with 2000 games played in gold/plat with a brand new account with like 5 HL games played. Have a seperate MMR ladder until you have at least say 500 (or until your MMR has stabilized for 10-20 games or so with no big fluctuations, to establish your MMR certainty) games played in HL. Then you merge their MMR with the real ladder (hidden of course) and they will quickly fall to where they actually belong.

Of course PBMMR would also solve this over the course of a single season. Do away with placements. If you perform to the level of a Diamond and lose, you should still gain points even though you lost a game with bronze and silvers. The points given to climb ladder need to be linked more strictly to MMR and give/take points very liberally to get players where they belong ASAP. I want to see a bronze level player who is somehow in gold/plat lose points even though he won the game and got hard carried.
04/17/2018 01:36 PMPosted by Skore
I wholeheartedly agree with Alu in this.

I'm not a master player, i'm not a diamond player. Every season I've been high plat. I once strayed into diamond but it didn't last long. I'm on Platinum Plateau.

However.

It feels like my games are a complete lottery and I'm struggling to tread water and stay where I am. But not because games are even and I need to play my heart out to keep a 50% win rate.

It's for....other reasons.

Will I get someone that knows what to do or am I getting a smurf that's trying for a diamond+ placement or crashing out of diamond on the way back to silver?

When every other draft can potentially have someone early hover a Dehaka or Sonya only to see 3 assassins picked because "we have a warrior". Or when it feels like everyone falls over themselves to pick Nazeebo or Sylvanas as soon as possible. Where solo support Tyrande stalks the night.

I play every role. I fill. I pick the flavour of the month hero if I'm first pick and it's not banned. I know not to cap a camp if the obj spawns a little later in the cycle and wait the 10-20 secs for max value. I take safe pathing, watch my mini map and don't face check bushes like Trikslyr and Khaldor taught me.

And some games it feels like I'm on an island within my team, cos everyone else is swimming mid lane for the last 5 minutes losing a 3v4.

And I lay the blame solely on placements matches.

For perhaps the first 4 seasons I had good matches. Then the seeding exploits and smurfing became really well publicised and suddenly everyone was doing it.

I feel that if smurfing were taken out of the equation by removing placements for new accounts and possibly by having a hard reset along with it then the ranks would MEAN something. You would be able to expect certain minimum standards from your team mates. Games could be more fun.

This season has been PARTICULARLY bad, and I've really cut down on the amount I play Heroes because of it.

I want to enjoy the game, the ranks, the try harding again. But unless there's a drastic change, which I don't think Peanut Butter Match Making will bring, I can see myself eventually stopping altogether.


Exactly. Placements are the problem here. Everyone is busy crying and whining about a MMR reset which won't do anything but wipe the slate clean and instantly drop people back where they belong rather than having us wait potentially years for old accounts to drop.

If we just do the removal of placements for new accounts, then we will still have those bronze players in diamond and plat slowly SLOWLY falling who are on older accounts. It will take a lot longer for those multiple smurf accounts to drop one by one than it would for us on our mains to just climb back.

I don't get why people are willing to play the RNG lottery for silver-diamond ranks for potentially years to come when we can just clean it up instantly. While fixing the core issue of why there's so many bronze players placed so high.
It's a very simple and elegant solution that fixes several problems at once. I guarantee the community would recover and bounce back within a week or two. You're over exaggerating and fearmongering as if EVERYONE is going to suffer and wallow in bronze forever when that just isn't the case. If you deserve to be gold, or master, or whatever... YOU WILL BEAT THE BRONZE PLAYERS AND CLIMB OUT. THAT IS LITERALLY THE POINT OF A RANKED SYSTEM AND MMR.

It won't take long to climb to where you belong. The only reason you think it will take long is because right now you're biased because you only experienced games filled with people that don't belong in your rank.

Seriously go make a new account right now. Play QM games. That is what it should be like when you're playing in bronze. You can carry those easily even if you're a gold player. It's not hard to win your first 30-60 games. If you're scared you're going to permanently be stuck with those people then maybe you belong there?


true story
Well the bottom line is... ranked is pointless right now. New accounts can be made, smurf their way into a high placement. Then forever pollute silver, gold, plat, and even diamond.

It makes actually playing those games if you're meant to be in those ranks more frustrating than it should be. I don't get why people are afraid of starting from the bottom and taking like one week to climb out. Why would they rather stay in a permanent mmr hell with both teams playing the "who gets the most bronze players" lottery to determine the winner.

The only answer I can come up with is that they are infact actual bronze players who are too scared to fall where they belong.

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