Tyrande Being Considered for Solo Support Role

General Discussion
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05/17/2018 10:15 AMPosted by Volun
05/17/2018 01:47 AMPosted by Urza
Its already awkward to stutter step her heals sometimes, considering her attack speed is so fast.


No wonder you thought she couldn't heal and in favor of frame healing. Stutter stepping with her is incredibly easy unless she has shadowstalk in which case, you should be saving it unless you're chasing or disengaging or in a position so you don't have to stutter step as much. That's a skill issue.
Ah, personal attacks.
Yes, my opinion must be a skill issue, my 58% winrate with Tyrande isnt relevant at all.
Your epeen is SOOOOO big, and my epeen is SOOOOO small. Can I suck your opinion since you have such a nice epeen and are so much better at the game than me?
@Blizzard
Wait, what is the problem, why do you strictly need to go towards healer or assassain ? Look at Varian as an example and let players chose a path at a certain point ?
My vote is NO for changing her back to solo heal.

Why i like her now. I dont go owl build.

Mark at lv 1. Extending the duration and lowering the cd with AAs is huge vs beefy comps and objectives like immortal, punisher, dragon, plant, bosses.

LV4 spell shield or celestial attunement(stun/silence clense) Easily 2 of the better talents any utility support has. Stun/silence clense, works on tongue drag, hook, taunt, lamb to slaughter, to name a few. so much save potential. Stacking spell shield can reduce a ton of damage too, works wonders vs mages.

Lv 7. true shot with a AA based team in fights and vs boss / objectives is so good too.

10. i usually take shadow stalk. boosts AA speed to heal more and mark more often.

13. harsh moonlight. reduces enemy damage by 25%, on piecing owls.. whats not to like about that. Or move speed on heals with quickening blessing, combined with stun clense you can hit 2 teammates with a speed boost or your self.

lv 16. i like overflowing moonlight or elunes chosen. more team healing.

lv 20. ice blade arrows. AA speed, and your basic attacks reduce damage dealt. AA speed reduce cooldowns on 2 of your abilities, plus shadow stalk and harsh moonlight, you are a debuff monster with the ability to keep teammates alive and not stunned.

Tyrande is that hero that secretly is doing alot more to help you survive and kill the enemy. but look at the pick rate on the utility talents and team buffs..

Lv1 mark 7%
LV4 spell shield 30%, stun /silence clense 15%
lv 7 34%
lv 10 shadow stalk 42%
lv 13 harsh moon light 20%, Quickening Blessing 15%
LV 16 Overflowing Mooohht 39%
Elunes choses 9%
Lv 20 Iceblade arrows 52%

ALL the low picked talents have the better winrate. People just want to secretly be helping they want top damage from owls when you can get the same numbers and do WAY more to help your team without owl talents.

If you only play owls, try those other talents out and im sure you will see how helpful she can be and your even tho nobody else will know but you. and your damage will be close to the same.
05/17/2018 10:49 AMPosted by Urza
Ah, personal attacks.
Yes, my opinion must be a skill issue, my 58% winrate with Tyrande isnt relevant at all.
Your epeen is SOOOOO big, and my epeen is SOOOOO small. Can I suck your opinion since you have such a nice epeen and are so much better at the game than me?


If you think stutter stepping is hard, that speaks for itself, I don't have to make personal attacks. You also advocated for frame healing, which is skill reducing. That's kind of a skill you learn at around high gold.

Your Tyrande play also never even utilized lunar momentum, or most of her heal talents, so you were literally ignorant about her other play styles. You're just an owl user, which is again, one of her lower skilled talent paths. If you made that work for you, that's great, but don't speak about her being a bad healer when you didn't even really try it.
05/16/2018 01:27 PMPosted by LCD
05/16/2018 01:04 PMPosted by sancho
Seems like a good candidate for our 2nd multi-class hero. Let her pick an identity at level 1 or 4.

In that same AMA they said they were removing multi-class category from the game when the role update comes.


That doesn't make it a bad idea to effectively make her a multi-class hero anyways though.
05/17/2018 12:48 PMPosted by Volun
05/17/2018 10:49 AMPosted by Urza
Ah, personal attacks.
Yes, my opinion must be a skill issue, my 58% winrate with Tyrande isnt relevant at all.
Your epeen is SOOOOO big, and my epeen is SOOOOO small. Can I suck your opinion since you have such a nice epeen and are so much better at the game than me?


If you think stutter stepping is hard, that speaks for itself, I don't have to make personal attacks. You also advocated for frame healing, which is skill reducing. That's kind of a skill you learn at around high gold.

Your Tyrande play also never even utilized lunar momentum, or most of her heal talents, so you were literally ignorant about her other play styles. You're just an owl user, which is again, one of her lower skilled talent paths. If you made that work for you, that's great, but don't speak about her being a bad healer when you didn't even really try it.
Except that when I do play Tyrande its mainly as Ranger's Mark build, ie the build thats the most reliant on her stutter stepping and heal. You're literally just making things up to suit yourself.

Have you ever heard of something called a disinterested opinion? Its similar to being unbiased. It means I have no invested interest in the matter. I am capable of utilizing or even exploiting a mechanic without thinking that its a good mechanic. I'm sorry if that concept eludes you.

Here, rather than continuing to engage with you on this peasantly personal level I'll bring the topic back to center with a classic apply and amplify.

The fraction of my original statement that caused you to attack me: Auto-attack based mechanics on high attackspeed characters are awkward because of the mechanical burden of the stutterstepping. They're much better on lower attack speed characters like hanzo.
(even though my original statement was mainly a comparison on the difference between melee vs ranged AA mechanics and stutter stepping, the mention of attack speed was merely incidental, but that doesnt fit your narative so we'll ignore it for now)
Your assertion: Anyone with such an opinion must be low-skill and hold that opinion only because they are low skill. Only lowskill people can think mechanics are awkward.
Apply and Amplify: Alright, attack speed is no burden at all. Tyrande should be reworked so that she has 3x the attack speed, and her attacks should reduce her heals cooldown by only 1/3 as much. She now attacks four times per second, same as Tychus, and has to stutterstep just as efficiently to manage the same average CDR she does now.
Go ahead, play that character, I'm sure that would be SOOOOO much fun.
I mean hey, why not take it farther, super high-skilled players like you can handle it, and super hyper carries like Tyrande are already sooooo far out of the league of players like me anyway. Why not have Tyrande attack 12 times per second? 36 attacks per second, and a cooldown reduction of two twenty-sevenths of a second per attack. Any skilled player should have no problem with that stutter step mechanic.
05/17/2018 12:37 PMPosted by DigitaLegacy
My vote is NO for changing her back to solo heal.

Why i like her now. I dont go owl build.

Mark at lv 1. Extending the duration and lowering the cd with AAs is huge vs beefy comps and objectives like immortal, punisher, dragon, plant, bosses.

LV4 spell shield or celestial attunement(stun/silence clense) Easily 2 of the better talents any utility support has. Stun/silence clense, works on tongue drag, hook, taunt, lamb to slaughter, to name a few. so much save potential. Stacking spell shield can reduce a ton of damage too, works wonders vs mages.

Lv 7. true shot with a AA based team in fights and vs boss / objectives is so good too.

10. i usually take shadow stalk. boosts AA speed to heal more and mark more often.

13. harsh moonlight. reduces enemy damage by 25%, on piecing owls.. whats not to like about that. Or move speed on heals with quickening blessing, combined with stun clense you can hit 2 teammates with a speed boost or your self.

lv 16. i like overflowing moonlight or elunes chosen. more team healing.

lv 20. ice blade arrows. AA speed, and your basic attacks reduce damage dealt. AA speed reduce cooldowns on 2 of your abilities, plus shadow stalk and harsh moonlight, you are a debuff monster with the ability to keep teammates alive and not stunned.

Tyrande is that hero that secretly is doing alot more to help you survive and kill the enemy. but look at the pick rate on the utility talents and team buffs..

Lv1 mark 7%
LV4 spell shield 30%, stun /silence clense 15%
lv 7 34%
lv 10 shadow stalk 42%
lv 13 harsh moon light 20%, Quickening Blessing 15%
LV 16 Overflowing Mooohht 39%
Elunes choses 9%
Lv 20 Iceblade arrows 52%

ALL the low picked talents have the better winrate. People just want to secretly be helping they want top damage from owls when you can get the same numbers and do WAY more to help your team without owl talents.

If you only play owls, try those other talents out and im sure you will see how helpful she can be and your even tho nobody else will know but you. and your damage will be close to the same.


I just opened a new thread. I honestly think that the owl build and owl quest is basically forcing Tyrande to be bad because it is very exploiteable. I give some interesting suggestions here: https://us.battle.net/forums/en/heroes/topic/20764436330
Except that when I do play Tyrande its mainly as Ranger's Mark build, ie the build thats the most reliant on her stutter stepping and heal. You're literally just making things up.


With her current build, yes. I should have been more precise to say you were instead of you are. I was talking about before her rework, which is what this thread was hearkening back to about her solo healing capability, you know the thing you talked about saying she couldn't?

The thing is you didn't exploit her healing mechanics. You just avoided them, and then made the claim that she wasn't a good healer. That just makes you uninformed.
I don't have much to add beyond what the Live Design guys said yesterday, but wanted to drop in and let you all know that we're watching discussions like this one with interest. Carry on =)
Well she was a solo support in the first place. It was the incompetent designers who ruined it back then...
I was never in favor of the amount of heroed Tyrande can Solo. Or of having an assassin with a spot heal ability.

Solo support go.
I'm going to throw my support behind turning Tyrande into a full fledged solo healer.

IMO, nobody that has healing spells should not be able to solo support. When I play her, I play her for her team enabler playstyle anyway.
I think the game could definitely use more viable solo supports.

Also:
Buff/re-work Ana.

<3
I'd love to see tyrande become a proper support solo healer, she would need a kit rework though.
I disagree. Game could use more variety in terms of double support. I love my support hybrids and Tyrannde simply does not fit into heal bot role. I wish that she would maintain her status as dps/support hero which you can take into traditional composition to aid your own healer and to add more dps in doing so.

While I do not play her and I admit she needs some tweaking, I would prefer to see her as she is. A hybrid rather than just another healer. I want my double support meta for God's sake and Blizzard just refuses to launch more support heroes like Medivh, Abathur or Tassadar!
05/17/2018 01:54 PMPosted by Drothvader
I'm going to throw my support behind turning Tyrande into a full fledged solo healer.

IMO, nobody that has healing spells should not be able to solo support. When I play her, I play her for her team enabler playstyle anyway.


If you enjoy the enabler style then you should like the fact she can dish out some damage without owls? I really like her playstyle right now and a hybrid she brings value vs beefy hp or armored enemies and can provide enough support and damage for split objectives and smart rotations.

Someone else made a good comment that owl build is why people find her so oppressive. In my earlier post, i never play owls. I've tried it out, and i see better team value in all her other talents. just becuase people want to play her as an owl snipe assassin doesnt mean thats how she must be played or those are the must pick talents.

Sure ive seen the replays of a STACKED owl tyrande repeatedly spam owls and get big damage and maybe a triple or quad kill but those are probably incredibly rare. People see that and say i wanna wipe a team with owls.. Not to mention your 90% likely to be vs Aba in a QM so naturally sniping the slug is satisfactory and is why those owl talents have the higher pick rate.

Take a look at the other lesser picked talents that actually have a better win rate.

I see Blizzard commented here so i want to fight for this Tyrande. I played a ton of her before the rework when she was supposed to be a solo healer, liked her alot then and i love and enjoy this reworked hybrid. I feel this tyrande is better than people know, all they see or know is owl build when those other talents are so much better.
05/17/2018 02:15 PMPosted by Ernestas
I disagree. Game could use more variety in terms of double support. I love my support hybrids and Tyrannde simply does not fit into heal bot role. I wish that she would maintain her status as dps/support hero which you can take into traditional composition to aid your own healer and to add more dps in doing so.

While I do not play her and I admit she needs some tweaking, I would prefer to see her as she is. A hybrid rather than just another healer. I want my double support meta for God's sake and Blizzard just refuses to launch more support heroes like Medivh, Abathur or Tassadar!

Maybe let rework Tass, Tyranda as universal heroes like Varian, which can chose some ways - be dmg or heal for example.
I do agree that Blizzard needs to add several multiclass heroes, but those not always possible. Multiclass hero must stand on its own without severe talent help for his lackluster abilities. This would create problems with Tyrannde as her heal either baseline would be pathetic and her talents would make it very good and be mandatory OR she would be another case of OP where her baseline heal is quite good and she dishes a lot of damage. A hero cannot have abilities which feel too weak as it won't be enjoyable to play it. Tassadar is a better example of a hero who can become another multiclass hero. Though, I do think that Blizzard first need a better definition of its heroes. There are healers. There are supports. There are hybrids. There are specialists. There are mages. There are AA carries. There are tanks. There are bruisers. After that, they need to stop adding classes which are already overpresented in this game like Assassins and focus on more unique heroes like finally giving us another multiclass hero. Adding more hybrids and supports. This overall would do wonders for diversity of this game.

I do support your idea, but I do think that she already has all of that. Just tweak her numbers to be more average and make her gain more power through talents allowing her to do significant healing or significant damage and some healing like she is now. Allow her to maintain her owl snipe. I like about her a lot even if I do not like to play her. I appreciate her unique spot in the meta and I enjoy seeing "support" kicking asses in duels against bruisers and assassins when she goes full dps. I personally outbullied Valla on the enemy team in being hyper carry, constantly dueling her. She is hilarious and unique and I want that she would remain a hybrid between healing and damage.

The only thing which I do not appreciate is her stun. It is hard to use and quite low impact. I would like to see her tilted to more to Assassin/Healer role and stuns do not fit her. From her existing talents I had seen already plenty of great ones which already fill this niche. I just simply do not want to see perfectly great design being reworked into a new hero which happens all the time with bloody League of Legends. I want my heroes to stay more or less the same. I want a lot of viable builds and flexibility. I want Blizzard to respect my time invested into mastering my heroes. I do not want to see them constantly being reworked into something which they were not over and over again and never really finding their spot. I want Blizzard to respect their own creation and rather work within the limitations of her design philosophy and role rather than changing it to something new every full moon.
05/17/2018 01:46 PMPosted by MattVi
I don't have much to add beyond what the Live Design guys said yesterday, but wanted to drop in and let you all know that we're watching discussions like this one with interest. Carry on =)


Nice to know.
I can speak only for myself. But as others have said, i played her mainly as a solo healer, and usualy did a very good job with her. I liked the fact that she had options. want to solo heal? Take those healing talents +shadow step (a very unique healing ult that made me save my team even from afar) and you will do a good job. Want to dish out more damage? A.A. or owl + starfall. She had that choice before.
After her rework i simply dont play her anymore, and i wish i could play her as a healer again
I started to play HotS because I've loved Starcraft 1 with his lore, heroes, history and etc. Stukov, Tassadar, Fenix, Aldaris, Gerard DuGale... Please! Tassadar was and is the main reason why I play HotS. Of course I started to play after his rework and after my learning his past I was shocked. Before this, I didn't undestand, why people so hate Tass for now, why sometimes he was too weak, why my team already write *gg* because they have my Tass. Despite this moment, I anyway have almost 60% winrate for 290+ games, because if my team trust me and we have good teamplay, we still can win. But people are not perfect. *Bg, report Tass, trash hero*, * why did you pick him? He doesn't play in any draft* and other same bull****.
He has a lot of problems, he needs reworks, buffs, but still you can win with him, if you WANT it.
I will wait for his rework, but if it won't be made - this will be the biggest reason why I should to stop to play HotS. Nobody will care about me, but expect me, there are many people, who loves Tassadar like me, and they won't like that too.

And yeah, This is post about Tyranda, but when Ernestas saw something about High Templar - I musted to say something.

And I am glad about Tyranda's rework, but anyway it would be great to make her universal.
Time to celebrate! I guess...

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