Blackheart's bay is just poorly designed

General Discussion
-too hard come back once the enemy has 1,2 coin payout lead
-enemy can just merc after merc giving you no time catch up (you can just win without ever having to 5v5)
-map layout is awkward top lane is too far from the coin payout (you can pick fast wave clearing or global heroes in HL/TL but in QM you dont get the luxury so top lane often gets ingored most of the matches thus no exp :P)
im sure there are more important details i missed
i dont hate this map
i just get dissappointed in blizz when i get this map :(
Just had a comeback on that map, still don't know how we did, but it happened
06/10/2018 05:08 AMPosted by EdwardNess
Just had a comeback on that map, still don't know how we did, but it happened

enemy team had probably AI
Why it hard to comeback? Map mechanic don't makes fights harder for you as some tons of zergs or Punisher.
I agree
Even the pros dont want this map in the rotation.
What does blizzard think?
"Oh we are going to leave this map as it is for casuals and we are not going to rework it"
Despite multiple threads no action is taken. I have the lowest win rate in this map because of its poor design.
Its one of the better designed maps unlike Braxis or friggin Punisher !@#$e.

Its not a winner takes all map where your objective contribution counts for absolutely nothing if you lose so you should be able to come back as much as you want as long as you are smart about it.
06/10/2018 05:51 AMPosted by Discane
Why it hard to comeback? Map mechanic don't makes fights harder for you as some tons of zergs or Punisher.


It's harder to come back from because the team with the lead technically never has to fight... ever.

Think of most maps - Cursed/Towers/Infernal/DK/Volsk/Braxxis etc... You need to contest a territory to win objectives, which forces fights.

BHB can be over after a single "pick" 3-4 mins into the game.

Example:

Team 1 vs Team 2

Team 1 gets 8 coins early
Team 2 gets 2 coins

Team 1 finds a Team 2 player out of position - Kills. Now Team 1 can take one of the coin camps and turn in. This will give them approx a 1 level lead because mid fort will go down.

Now, with that 1 level lead... all team 1 needs to do is soak and never attempt to turn in on even talents. Wait until they are level 10 and Team 2 is level 9, Team 1 free turn in with ults.

Then wait for 13v11/12 advantage - Repeat.

Once a keep goes down Team 1 has enough map pressure with pults to start forcing enemy camps and boss while up talents.

The only real way to get back into a game in BHB after losing the first 1 or 2 turn-ins is if the enemy team makes a mistake... because Team 1 technically never needs to take a bad or even strength fight. They can pick their moments because they are always ahead and the map doesn't "force" objective fights.
06/10/2018 05:51 AMPosted by Discane
Why it hard to comeback? Map mechanic don't makes fights harder for you as some tons of zergs or Punisher.


BHB is apparently my best map (idfk how i hate that map with a passion)

just gotta win a teamfight, then control mid. Thats all it takes to come back
06/10/2018 06:29 AMPosted by TheDutchMan
Think of most maps - Cursed/Towers/Infernal/DK/Volsk/Braxxis etc... You need to contest a territory to win objectives, which forces fights.


Braxis is the most snowbally map of all, and Infernal Shrines the 2nd most snowbally map of all. If you are going to bring up examples at least don't mention those two or your point is going to be moot.
06/10/2018 05:07 AMPosted by Finn
-map layout is awkward top lane is too far from the coin payout (you can pick fast wave clearing or global heroes in HL/TL but in QM you dont get the luxury so top lane often gets ingored most of the matches thus no exp :P)


QM imbalances != actual imbalances. That's just QM being dumb.
06/10/2018 05:51 AMPosted by Discane
Why it hard to comeback? Map mechanic don't makes fights harder for you as some tons of zergs or Punisher.


Well, yes it kind of does, since towers give XP, XP gives levels, and a level disadvantage make fights harder.

And there's no counterplay. Once the coins are turned in, GG, some of your towers are gone and you can't do anything about it.

Zerg and Immortals can be killed. Punishers can be kited. Spiders can be killed.

Nothing stops Gangplank's cannon barrage.
06/10/2018 07:21 AMPosted by Petersen
06/10/2018 05:51 AMPosted by Discane
Why it hard to comeback? Map mechanic don't makes fights harder for you as some tons of zergs or Punisher.


Well, yes it kind of does, since towers give XP, XP gives levels, and a level disadvantage make fights harder.

And there's no counterplay. Once the coins are turned in, GG, some of your towers are gone and you can't do anything about it.

Zerg and Immortals can be killed. Punishers can be kited. Spiders can be killed.

Nothing stops Gangplank's cannon barrage.
Except you can just kill the coin carrier before turning in and turn the barrage on your enemy instead. There's something that stops gankplank's cannon barrage its YOU, before the enemy turns in. Its as simple as knowing when ppl wanna turn in and intercepting them and focusing coin carriers first in fights if you cannot engage completely.

There's a lot more counterplay than in Braxis where if you lose a zerg wave you have no way to recover because its 2 lane map and the objective requiring you to win 2 fights both top and bottom. Or on Infernal shrines where even if you get 39 out of 40 of the minions if you dont get the 40th you get NOTHING at all.
06/10/2018 06:18 AMPosted by Avinicci
I agree
Even the pros dont want this map in the rotation.
What does blizzard think?
"Oh we are going to leave this map as it is for casuals and we are not going to rework it"
Despite multiple threads no action is taken. I have the lowest win rate in this map because of its poor design.


But it's not in the HL rotation. It's just in QM and unranked.
06/10/2018 07:30 AMPosted by David
Except you can just kill the coin carrier before turning in and turn the barrage on your enemy instead. There's something that stops gankplank's cannon barrage its YOU, before the enemy turns in. Its as simple as knowing when ppl wanna turn in and intercepting them and focusing coin carriers first in fights if you cannot engage completely.

There's a lot more counterplay than in Braxis where if you lose a zerg wave you have no way to recover because its 2 lane map and the objective requiring you to win 2 fights both top and bottom. Or on Infernal shrines where even if you get 39 out of 40 of the minions if you dont get the 40th you get NOTHING at all.


I take (and support) your meaning. I am quite consistently frustrated by teams who know they have the coins to turn in and then just ignore the turn in spot.

However, the point I was trying to make which you completely ignored is that in every other map (except, arguably [because if you have all 6 towers, the objective doesn't matter at all], Towers of Doom), even if you fail the objective, you can limit the damage it causes.
Stop feeding your coins to enemy team.
06/10/2018 06:38 AMPosted by David
06/10/2018 06:29 AMPosted by TheDutchMan
Think of most maps - Cursed/Towers/Infernal/DK/Volsk/Braxxis etc... You need to contest a territory to win objectives, which forces fights.


Braxis is the most snowbally map of all, and Infernal Shrines the 2nd most snowbally map of all. If you are going to bring up examples at least don't mention those two or your point is going to be moot.


Infernal shrines is one of the most snow-bally maps in HotS? I'd look up your rank, but the name "david" probably has 5000 NA matches, so I wont bother.

But, honestly, that sounds like Silver 3 talk.

The punisher in Infernal Shrines is currently weaker than:

Garden Terror
Volskaya Robot
Zerg Wave
Immortal from BoE

It's about the same level as the DK (although, late game DK is insane). If you are down talents you can use the 45-90 seconds while the other team rotates to the Infernal Shrine objective and then slowly clears it, to push another lane on the map to regain the exp gap and then defend the punisher by properly baiting it over the wall.

Unlike Infernal Shrines and Braxxis, BHB takes all of 5 seconds to channel and deposit the coins. Meaning a good team who knows to let their jungler have all the coins can have the objective "captured" (turned in coins) by committing 1 body to about 15-20 seconds of rotating and turning in.

There isn't much counter play to that.

You either need to send 1-2 people to baby-sit the turn in and deny(which means you are now 3v4 on the rest of the map) OR you let them turn in... but if you do that then they still have 4 people soaking 3 lanes and denying you the ability to ignore the objective and close the exp gap with soak.

You feel me?

tl;dr - If the enemy team is going to commit to Infernal Shrines objective it's going to require 1-3 bodies to be occupied for 45-90 seconds, and then punisher isn't even guaranteed to get a fort btw (first 2 punishers, if baited properly, only get wall). BHB requires 1 person to spend 10-20 seconds turning in while his 4 teammates continue to control the lane soak so the enemy team cannot use soaking as an alternative for the objective.

Make sense?

Sounds like you are just bitter about sucking on Infernal Shrines, because that's honestly one of the best balanced maps. Right up there with BoE and Cursed
I don't mind the map, but I don't love it for reasons already mentioned here, specifically how the team with the lead can pretty much just harvest coins.

My suggestions for making BHB better would be..

1. Remove the top and bottom coin mercenaries, that's 8 additional coins on the map that the team with the lead will (should) always be able to secure.

2. Remove coins from siege camps, bruisers I guess it's okay because they take far longer to kill but it's still not great, post level 13 a team can burn them down quickly and bam, once again, more free coins.

3. Make it so that structures killed by cannons do not give the team experience, this personally is what I hate the most, a team can just soak, secure coins, and have a permanent level lead because every turn in is another dead fort/towers which translates into an even harder snow ball.

Plus, the team didn't kill it, so I don't see why they (or my team) should get experience, the map objective killed them, so why does the team get experience? Yea I guess they are the ones who ultimately got the turn in but still, it's just another snowball mechanic that the map doesn't need.

Personally I hate Towers of Doom more because I feel like certain heroes just make it an unplayable uphill battle (if the enemy team has Samuro, Falstad, Dehaka, it's just a nightmare) but I agree, BHB could use a bit of a rework and minimize the snowball.
My experience as someone who has been farming coins has been like this:

Playing as Nazeebo, I have 12 coins on me from killing the skeleton pirates. I go to turn them in but Sonya and Nova are waiting for me at the ship so I use the assistance ping. Looking at the minimap nobody goes to help me so I just turn around and leave. I go and keep farming coins until somebody catches me on one of the bridges and kills me. Then the enemy gets my coins and tries to turn them in. Now my team finally goes to contest but some of them die because they engage before everyone gets there. Sometimes I do get lucky and people actually pay attention to my assistance pings and come help me fight.

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