Can we talk about Illidan?

General Discussion
He is so useless right now. He's a high skill hero with zero reward for playing him well. He's too squishy and has too low hp for a game that has power creeped beyond belief. Illidan can't engage in team fights because he gets instantly melted by abilities, and it doesn't matter who's it is.

Illidan was supposed to be one of the best 1v1 heroes but he can't beat most heroes in a 1v1 anymore. Mages can just trade into me because they can burst me faster than it takes me to slowly wear them down with my paper warglaives. Tanks can burst me, and even supports can do it. So what exactly is the point of this hero anymore? His damage is horrible, his sustain is horrible, his team fighting is horrible, his laning sucks, and the only thing he's good at is taking mercenaries.

Why do I have to outplay my opponents to such a degree to do decent with this hero? Why do I have to put in this much effort when the reward just isn't there because he's been power creeped into obscurity? Why do I have to worry about instantly dying no matter when I join a team fight, even if we're winning? Illidan is my highest level hero and I can't play him because he has no place in the game anymore and is just a worse Genji and Greymane.
Might help if you actually told the people here what's happening. Because I'm sure no tanks or supports are killing you 1v1, that is, unless you are running in circles around them, or something, but even with cooperation i'd like to know how a tank or a support is "bursting" you.
I very recently had a game where we utterly destroyed their team with Illidan/Abathur.

The thing about Illidan is that he sucks without the proper comp around him.

Illidan with Abathur or Tassadar or Tyrael or Zarya is way more powerful than without any enablers for him.

And honestly that's fine. If we don't balance heroes around their synergy with other heroes then what ends up happening is that when they DO have those synergistic heroes they become too hard to deal with.

So Illidan is comp dependent, he's basically always been that way but it's even more apparent in today's game. He's still plenty viable though and with the right comps and against the right opponents he can still dominate.
I already made a post about this a week or so ago.

Illidan is still borderline oppressive when paired with Aba hat/sometimes Tass(aba is way better tho).

Outside of that he's pretty pathetic. Draft mode he can still sorta work but solo queuing with him in QM is a lesson in futility 90% of the time.

Oh fun fact, Murky with Fish Tank talent makes an even level Illidan hit for about 30 damage a swing. Murky literally out regens his AA's.

Feels good man. Feels real good.
Illidan is extremely situational pick.

Not only does he require certain heroes in his team to really shine, but also for enemy team to not have certain heroes.

99% of the time, another hero will be a better pick than him.

He is niche, probably too niche.
Illidan was supposed to be one of the best 1v1 heroes but he can't beat most heroes in a 1v1 anymore
Arthas, Muradin and Sonya aren’t “most heroes”.

... at least, those are the only heroes I ever have difficulty beating 1v1 with Illidan (sometimes Greymane is an issue, too).

EDIT: Might as well include that my Illidan is at level 137, ~63% winrate, high diamon/low masters MMR, exclusively solo queue.
I play a lot Illidan, lv52 around 60% QM win rate (61.4% at peak). Here are some of my personal thoughts.

- Extremely vulnerable to any form of CC (stun/silence/blind/sheep/...) and bursting abilities (even with 13 spell shield).
- His health pool is also pretty low compared to other melee assassins.
- Once he was the most mobile hero, now he often has problems chasing ranged targets (For me lv4 dive range is a must)
- Good jungler, can handle most merc at early stages with Immolation.
- Very comp dependent. With proper supports (Aba/Tass/Reghar/...) he is unstoppable, however in QM you usually don't get those supports.
- Matchmaking algorithm. For many games I am the only melee in team, and enemy team for the same spot they got Xul/Butcher/Kerrigan/Sonya/... Those games can be really frustrating.
- His damage is fine tho. With The Hunt he can blow up a ranged unit pretty quick, given that he is not bothered by CCs/bursts.

IMO he is indeed off-meta, many other heroes can do his job with better performance. Hope Blizz can do some reworks to bring him back to a viable spot :p
Illidan's problem is Betrayer's Thirst. It's always been his biggest problem. It's the most broken trait in the game. Buffing Illidan's numbers makes him OP because of how his trait interacts with other heroes like Abathur, Tassadar, or Morales, making him exponentially stronger with said buffs. If you don't have any way to deal with him...he can just mow your team down like nothing while dodging all of your skillshots in the process.

That being said, time has not been kind to Illidan. As more and more heroes have been released, the his counters have grown in number. There are more blinds, more attack speed slows, and more stuns than ever before - all of which directly counter Betrayer's Thirst which facilitiates his entire kit. Heroes like Genji and Tracer have overshadowed him in his "sticky dive assassin" role in teamfights by being both less risky and higher reward heroes. The Hunt's CD was increased a lot which damaged him significantly in terms of his place in the meta game.

He needs buffs. He flucuates between being unstoppable and useless depending on the matchup, which I don't believe is healthy hero design for someone as iconic as Illidan. If I had my way, his trait would be reworked entirely. As it stands, I think a fair start would be to buff all of his underperforming talents.
He flucuates between being unstoppable and useless depending on the matchup.


Pretty much summarizes my life playing this class as my main. Either get upvoted with high praises or get reported and death threats.
07/01/2018 10:48 PMPosted by Ezekiel
Illidan was supposed to be one of the best 1v1 heroes but he can't beat most heroes in a 1v1 anymore
Arthas, Muradin and Sonya aren’t “most heroes”.

... at least, those are the only heroes I ever have difficulty beating 1v1 with Illidan (sometimes Greymane is an issue, too).

EDIT: Might as well include that my Illidan is at level 137, ~63% winrate, high diamon/low masters MMR, exclusively solo queue.
You're joking right? There are way more heroes than that, you seriously need me to list them?

Yrel, Fenix, Maiev, Blaze, Hanzo, a good Kel'Thuzad, Malthael, Genji, Cassia, Valeera, Zul'jin, Ragnaros, Varian, Alarak, Gul'dan, Chromie, Tracer, Dehaka, Greymane, Lunara, Cho'gall (obviously), Artanis, Butcher, Thrall, Jaina is 50/50, Azmodan, Tychus is 50/50, Q build Diablo, Zeratul, Hammer, Nazeebo, Sonya, Valla with stun ult, Nova, Muradin, Arthas, Falstad is 50/50.
If they do buff him (which will most likely happen) I just hope they don't ruin "Battered Assault" talent.

Seriously that's the only first talent I ever use for Illidan now since Unending Hatred takes a while to build in-game and make him a viable fighter for his team.

It's also the best talent to turn the tide of a team fight if you have good placement with Illidan.
I would really like to see his underperforming talents and ultimates buffed, without touching his baseline numbers. That may be enough to push him back into the meta game without making him OP. Here are my suggestions:

1. Buff Immolation damage from 22 to 26 damage (roughly 20% buff). This makes his damage a bit more relevant against comps which counter him.

2. Buff Rapid Chase. What if the movement speed buff applied to all of his abilities and not just Dive? That would potentially make it competitive with Friend or Foe and Unbound.

3. Buff Unbound. Lower its requirement from 30 to 25 Sweeping Strikes. Right now, I think this quest takes a tad too long to complete.

4. Buff Reflexive Block. It's currently a trash talent. Maybe revert it to its original form when Illidan was first reworked. I think it had 3 charges for a greater period of time.

5. Buff Metamorphosis. Right now, Metamorphosis is a glorified Fenix warp with a longer CD. I think a healthy change for Meta would be to return it to its former radius from years ago. That would help him get more reliable HP increases which is needed since they removed the attack speed increase a while back.

6. Buff The Hunt. Lower the CD from 100 to 90 seconds.

7. Buff Fiery Brand. In fact, give us a different talent entirely. I see no reason to ever take this one over Blades of Azzinoth.
07/02/2018 09:40 AMPosted by LouELastic

7. Buff Fiery Brand. In fact, give us a different talent entirely. I see no reason to ever take this one over Blades of Azzinoth.


Are you kidding? Fiery brand is perfect against high health heroes like Diablo!

I always take that talent for teams consisting of two warriors too. Mix that with storm talent Metamorphosis and you're golden.

I do like your other suggestions though.
As someone that doesn't really play Illidan, I can't really speak on ways to improve his performance. However, I do feel like he needs something. I hardly ever see Illidan being played, and when I do he gets thoroughly beaten down. Even against opponents he should theoretically have the upper hand against, he seems to struggle very hard when not getting support from more or less his entire team. He has become far too niche, and for such well known character, I feel he deserves better. You shouldn't need to build an entire comp around him just to make him "viable".

That used to be what Hammer required to see success, and I even see her much more frequently than Illidan, and she regularly performs much better, even when matched up against her counters.
Lol I find this so absurd

07/01/2018 10:04 PMPosted by Vindicare
He's still plenty viable though and with the right comps and against the right opponents he can still dominate.


Ohhhh I see. So as long as the stars have lined up perfectly in the shape of Illidan's pinky toe, it's a new moon, and assuming of course that the groundhog saw his shadow, Illidan is totally viable! Oh my goodness thank you Vindicare! I have seen the light and I now realize the OP's point is invalid. Because clearly Illidan is just fine since he can dominate if everything happens juuuuust right.

Because as we both know, even if the practicality of a hero's viability being obscure to the point of invisibility, it's still worth considering them viable!

No but seriously, you're out of your freakin' mind if you think it makes sense to call a hero viable in the current meta just because there's a specific situation where they can shine.

There's a specific situation where every hero can shine. That doesn't make them viable.

If we wanted Illidan to be meta again we'd need to give him more answers to CC or burst damage.

We could start with making him immune to blinds since that would just make sense.
07/01/2018 10:04 PMPosted by Vindicare
I very recently had a game where we utterly destroyed their team with Illidan/Abathur.

This is MEANINGLESS. I beat people frequently in Quake deathmatches with the axe. The axe must be a good weapon, right? Nope: the axe is still bottom tier trash, random stomps do not disprove that.


The thing about Illidan is that he sucks without the proper comp around him...
He's still plenty viable though and with the right comps and against the right opponents he can still dominate.

There is no unit in the entire game for which this statement is false. By your logic, no hero in the history of HOTS ever needs adjustment because some contrived situation exists where they can do well. Designing a hero who can only perform with a certain team and against a certain team is BAD DESIGN. If only it happened to Tracer instead.
07/01/2018 09:36 PMPosted by Sinclairlim
Might help if you actually told the people here what's happening. Because I'm sure no tanks or supports are killing you 1v1, that is, unless you are running in circles around them, or something, but even with cooperation i'd like to know how a tank or a support is "bursting" you.


i beat illidan 1v1 with rehgar and khara all the time (or at least to the point where he had to back off). and double stun holy shock aoe stun ult uther just melts illidan. he is not in a good spot imo
07/03/2018 01:47 AMPosted by BedPohtaytoh
07/01/2018 09:36 PMPosted by Sinclairlim
Might help if you actually told the people here what's happening. Because I'm sure no tanks or supports are killing you 1v1, that is, unless you are running in circles around them, or something, but even with cooperation i'd like to know how a tank or a support is "bursting" you.


i beat illidan 1v1 with rehgar and khara all the time (or at least to the point where he had to back off). and double stun holy shock aoe stun ult uther just melts illidan. he is not in a good spot imo


To be fair, Uther is one of Illidan's hard counters, but ya, rehgar and Khara....? That shouldn't happen...

Also, any comp that Illidan works in, Varian or sonya works in even better. Even Malth in some cases.
07/03/2018 02:44 AMPosted by Kratos
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i beat illidan 1v1 with rehgar and khara all the time (or at least to the point where he had to back off). and double stun holy shock aoe stun ult uther just melts illidan. he is not in a good spot imo


To be fair, Uther is one of Illidan's hard counters, but ya, rehgar and Khara....? That shouldn't happen...

Also, any comp that Illidan works in, Varian or sonya works in even better. Even Malth in some cases.


It’s worth noting that several supports currently counter Illidan. Uther is one, but I would argue that Lili and Brightwing counter him even more. Malfurion is also effective as an Illidan counter - Twilight Dream absolutely destroys him.

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