Can we talk about Illidan?

General Discussion
07/02/2018 10:11 PMPosted by brOWNie
07/02/2018 09:40 AMPosted by LouELastic

7. Buff Fiery Brand. In fact, give us a different talent entirely. I see no reason to ever take this one over Blades of Azzinoth.


Are you kidding? Fiery brand is perfect against high health heroes like Diablo!

I always take that talent for teams consisting of two warriors too. Mix that with storm talent Metamorphosis and you're golden.

I do like your other suggestions though.


The problem is that you only get truly significant value out of fiery brand if you’re focusing down warriors with your damage, which really isn’t advisable in a lot of situations considering how affected he is by CC.

Blazes Of Azzinoth gives Illidan something he otherwise lacks which is a burst window and the damage is the same no matter who you fight. The only issue is that you need to land Sweeping Strikes to get that burst. Fiery Brand is therefore a more consistent option but it’s a lazy talent design, honestly and if you’re using BoA correctly, Fiery Brand is rather pointless.
He has the same problem all the "outdated" heroes have, over time Blizzard introduced heroes that fit the exact same spot but with a decent advantage over the old one. I do like that Blizzard decided to rework the old heroes to pull them up a little because they are not designed badly and still a nice part of the game but unfortunetly it takes a lot of time. Id acutally like for them to not work on new heroes but focus entirely on upgrading old ones.
level 115 illidan here 63.6% winrate at master level.
let me begin with this: if they buff him, people that play illidan as good as me are going to be monsters.
not here to brag just to raise a concern, illidan is a very awkward situation
he can either be the most useless hero in the match or the most dangerous add a couple of enablers and he's a top priority above all else for his enemies to kill.
i have mixed feelings about buffing/reworking illidan cause i sort of like playing him right now, yet sometimes i really wish for a buff just to realize that a buff would make him broken in another game were i dominate.
im afraid, afraid they will change him in a way that i wouldn't be able to do what i can do now, yet at the same time feel like a change is needed. blizz is in a tough spot and so are we.
07/03/2018 11:48 AMPosted by Sleeser
level 115 illidan here 63.6% winrate at master level.


....

Teach me

No seriously add me or something because I desperately wish to improve.

07/03/2018 11:48 AMPosted by Sleeser
let me begin with this: if they buff him, people that play illidan as good as me are going to be monsters.
not here to brag just to raise a concern, illidan is a very awkward situation
he can either be the most useless hero in the match or the most dangerous add a couple of enablers and he's a top priority above all else for his enemies to kill.
i have mixed feelings about buffing/reworking illidan cause i sort of like playing him right now, yet sometimes i really wish for a buff just to realize that a buff would make him broken in another game were i dominate.
im afraid, afraid they will change him in a way that i wouldn't be able to do what i can do now, yet at the same time feel like a change is needed. blizz is in a tough spot and so are we.


As pretty much everyone else has said, It's no secret that Illidan can easily become a horrifyingly broken hero.

If you have the right comp, and if the enemy team doesn't counter you.

That's the thing though. Those are some pretty big "If's". And surely, you would agree that's true of a number of other heroes. Some of which who absolutely smash Illidan's face in currently, especially at your elo, and who aren't countered as easily.

That, and given that we are about to be given a third ban in drafts, it's going to be so much easier to prevent you from getting the right comp for Illidan.

Given that the whole point of Illidan is that with his high skill cap, the reward as you get closer to that cap should get higher accordingly... and right now do you really think that the relationship between those two factors is proportional?

I personally do not. Though, while I adore the hero, am still trying to reach your skill level, and would welcome all the help I can get from the hero being made better :p
07/03/2018 11:48 AMPosted by Sleeser
i have mixed feelings about buffing/reworking illidan cause i sort of like playing him right now, yet sometimes i really wish for a buff just to realize that a buff would make him broken in another game were i dominate.
im afraid, afraid they will change him in a way that i wouldn't be able to do what i can do now, yet at the same time feel like a change is needed. blizz is in a tough spot and so are we.


Yeah that's my biggest fear too, I really don't want them to change him drastically. I love him as an auto attack melee and his current builds. He does however need something to give him consistency for the various comps he goes up against.

Honestly this spot he's in reminds me of another character I enjoy using in League of Legends, Tryndamere is exactly like that which is why Riot refuses to give him a proper update.

However unlike LoL at least Illidan doesn't have item builds that get in the way too and affect every other character, just his abilities which can be tweaked a bit.
07/03/2018 11:48 AMPosted by Sleeser
level 115 illidan here 63.6% winrate at master level.
let me begin with this: if they buff him, people that play illidan as good as me are going to be monsters.
not here to brag just to raise a concern, illidan is a very awkward situation
he can either be the most useless hero in the match or the most dangerous add a couple of enablers and he's a top priority above all else for his enemies to kill.
i have mixed feelings about buffing/reworking illidan cause i sort of like playing him right now, yet sometimes i really wish for a buff just to realize that a buff would make him broken in another game were i dominate.
im afraid, afraid they will change him in a way that i wouldn't be able to do what i can do now, yet at the same time feel like a change is needed. blizz is in a tough spot and so are we.
This is true with buffing him that if Blizzard gives him a real buff Illidan will just stomp almost everything we've seen it before and then they nerfed him after that big up HARD. And it's also the reason why reworking Illidan would be so tough because it may screw over the Illidans that actually play him well.
Mana Burn.
07/03/2018 11:48 AMPosted by Sleeser
level 115 illidan here 63.6% winrate at master level.
let me begin with this: if they buff him, people that play illidan as good as me are going to be monsters.
not here to brag just to raise a concern, illidan is a very awkward situation
he can either be the most useless hero in the match or the most dangerous add a couple of enablers and he's a top priority above all else for his enemies to kill.
i have mixed feelings about buffing/reworking illidan cause i sort of like playing him right now, yet sometimes i really wish for a buff just to realize that a buff would make him broken in another game were i dominate.
im afraid, afraid they will change him in a way that i wouldn't be able to do what i can do now, yet at the same time feel like a change is needed. blizz is in a tough spot and so are we.


any hero as niche as illidan has a high winrate in the right comp/ if the enemy comp allows it
that s nothing new and it actually doesnt have much to do with how strong illidan is by himself

illidan shines if he can stick to the enemy in a clumped fight for easy battered assault and blades and that s also his problem because there s just too much cc and peel in the game if the enemy team knows what they r doing on the other hand u can stomp any matches where the enemy team cant control u be it because they dont have enough peel/ cc or they r bad at coordinating their dmg with their cc to take u down
07/03/2018 11:48 AMPosted by Sleeser
level 115 illidan here 63.6% winrate at master level.


....

Teach me

[/quote]
well i can give you my build, its not meta but lets be honest do we ever see illidan doing anything crazy with the meta build? nah not really not on qm,ranked or hgc :P.
its basically a w build:
1- battered assault
4- unbound
7- hunter onslaught
10- depends if they have lots of cc then meta
13- nimble defender, sometimes sixth sense, if the whole enemy team is aa only then elusive strike is the way to go :P
16- blades of azzinoth, on rare cases marked for death
20- depends, if u took meta then meta upgrade else either hunt upgrade or nexus blades
most people likes to go friend or foe, its a great escape tool however it depends on you having allies close by, unbound as well has a good escape if you are near a wall and can pass it while enemy can, so both talents has equally situational conditions for escape, the second charge of sweeping strike is so valuable and sync so well with the build that i take it 100% of the time.

now how to use this build, practice.
learn how to position yourself so that you can w 2 people getting the battered bonus, its funny but with this build you actually prefer battling at least 2 heroes, this makes you way stronger, even 1v2 sometimes 1 v 3 unlike what people think that illidan is a great 1v1ner ima be honest, if i see a butcher in a lane im not gonna be too happy about 1v1 him, but if theres someone else with him then sure should be easy :P

again its about practice but knowing when to engage is important, if you can engage last it would be great cause now everyone's position is pretty much known and you know on who to jump to get the squishier back line with battered bonus.
if you are the only melee in the team engage with caution, when illidan jumps first the enemy has the chance to cc focus him and kill him pretty quickly, you will need the help of your team.

well these are the tips that comes to mind... not a lot i know, but most of his play is practice. i was gonna advise you to be careful of counters, but im not really afraid of those so...
also dont feel bad if you die alot, illidan usually gets focused the most, according to hotslogs i take more damage then our tank most of the time, so with your health pool its understandable that you will die like 3-7 times a game but... if you kill 16 then i guess its alright xD
jeah the synergy between battered assault and blades is awesome and can keep u alive in tfs thx to ur passive, i usually go with thirsting blade at 7 because it s much better for staying alive unless the enemy team has lots of blinds

sadly lvl 10 meta is currently way too undertuned and i rly hope it will be changed soon, i still pick it most times to get the cc reduction at 20 which hlps illidan a lot

if they feel that giving back the 20% atts is too strong at lvl 10 then at least they should make the cc reduction baseline to hlp illi with his biggest problem
either i wouldnt mind if they rework meta completly and add cc reduction/ unstoppable as a talent/ baseline to evasion
I hate "Can we talk about" threads.

Dont stall us, just spit it out man!
I get many of the posts still mentioning the strengths of illidan. But similar to the OP I think the evidence is clear especially in much higher skilled games and even pro's where he is abyssmally picked.

It's quite clear why he's picked and what the OP is getting at what he excels at can easily and more effectively be replaced by tons of heroes with reasonbly less risk and skill level. Sure there are some trade offs but statistically the pay off is with them NOT with illidan. Sure people talk about illidan's combo with or built around with other heroes such as aba but the same is for many other heroes that already out do him. He's just not really worth it anymore and naturally the meta shifts for what is most broken to 'WIN' and sadly fun and creativity suffers.
My problem is that he's Illidan, one of the most iconic of WoW lore, IMO he should not be so situational, he should be a go-too assasin, not need aba to do great.
Bump.
I agree that Illidan is too weak. He faces greater risks than other heroes that perform the same role. He's more situational. He's also the only pure melee assassin, having no ranged poke at all.

He's particularly weak against crowd control because so much of his power comes from not just movement, but landing basic attacks to heal himself, deal the majority of his damage, and to reduce his cooldowns thus allowing him to use more movement and defensive abilities.

Crowd control prevents him from doing all that for precious seconds. I would say he suffers more at the hands of CC than any other hero in the game.

But I agree that a buff could very easily push him into overpowered territory, especially when he has enablers like Tassadar or Abathur on his team.

So I say the solution is to shift some of his power away from his trait. Make him less reliant on landing basic attacks. Here are some possible ways to do that:

• Halve the effectiveness of his lifesteal against Heroes and increase his base health or give him some Spell Armor baseline. (His ability to take mercenary camps and heal off minions and structures will be unaffected, because his lifesteal is only changed vs heroes.)

• Reduce his Basic Attack damage but increase his base health and the damage of Dive and Sweeping Strike to even out his dps.

However it's done, I think allocating power away from his trait is clearly the way to go. It would prevent extreme synergy with certain other heroes and make him a more rounded assassin.
07/01/2018 09:36 PMPosted by Sinclairlim
Might help if you actually told the people here what's happening. Because I'm sure no tanks or supports are killing you 1v1, that is, unless you are running in circles around them, or something, but even with cooperation i'd like to know how a tank or a support is "bursting" you.


Li Li (especially w/ blind on cloud serpent), Ana (sleep, 200 DPS trait stacks, shuts down his healing, blinds him when sleep ends) Brightwing (polymorph and Q, kite), Auriel (blind spam, stun), Kharazim (even if Insight, Earth Spirit), Lucio (seriously you might not die to Lucio 1v1, but you're not going to kill him), Malfurion (sort of, at the very least not going to kill him), Stukov (not going to kill him), Morales (probably not going to kill her), Tyrande and Uther all say hello to Illidan.

Sure the support isn't going to burst you down alone, but they represent a massive expenditure of time and effort for Illidan to even try and handle, and wearing down an assassin who is already so easily burst down is pretty much a no-go for someone like Illidan.

Even the ones who he can slaughter like Alex tend to take Cleansing Flame and just escape, I'm pretty sure he can kill a low-mana Rehgar, but eh.

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