Simply Bronze-Troll Me

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I am not kidding about this:

Play gazlowe. Also, zeratul/illidan/valeera. Gazlowe is my favorite and highest winrate bronze stomping hero, though. Just do what macro plays you think are important and be communicative, supportive, and specific with your team. My smurf gazlowe is 23-2, he is a hero that really works for CARRYING low rank games. Take this build:

Scrap-o-matic Smelter
Reduce, Re-use, Recycle
Hyperfocus Coils
Usually Robo-goblin
Goblin Fusion
Turret or bomb charge
Heroic upgrade

It's the perfect blend of Chromie x Greymane with strong wave/camp clear, poke that bronze players don't respect or punish, and all the melee punishment of a plat/diamond player beating on bronze. He is broken in low ranks.
i carried me out of bronze in the past with the old stealth zeratul and the shadow blade build.

in bronze/silver are specialists effective imo because many players in these leagues doesnt know well how to play a simple macro game/soak lanes/make camps in good timing. so many time these players just camp arounf with 4 at one lane.

when u play a macro oriented hero like zagara, it can make a huge difference.
Crimson, showing the times in your analysis was really helpful as it let me know EXACTLY what to look for in the engagements you note.

07/20/2018 10:12 PMPosted by Crimson

1. Learn your matchups.

Know who you can kill and who you can't kill. (5:10, 6:30, 9:50)

I've gotten a lot of good comments on these posts but I think you just identified the area that I'm weakest on that will have the biggest impact carrying these games.
I'll say it's hard to learn these matchups because of skill gap and it is taking me a while to get them on lock.
Example is that I've played Genji's that aren't good and I can faceroll them where as the Genji in my Placement Game 6 dominated me. I even say it in the videos where I note that "the initial engagement is for me to get information on which enemies can be exploited and which teammates will be hindrances". I'm looking at it in terms of player skill and not Hero v Hero match. In the Game 3 that I posted they have a Colossus Varian who should have smoked me on numerous occasions but I knew them from other games and identified them early on as being a weak link in their team.
I will be paying MUCH closer attention to matchups and looking to master this. This is definitely a fundamental skill of playing an assassin that you've shown me I'm weak at and need to practice.


2. Be more aggressive.

Right now you're playing too safely. You need to go for those kills, warp forward to chase, and position further up in fights.

It doesn't matter how good of a player you are if you hide behind your tank the whole game. If you want to make your impact felt, you need to be aggressive.

This means playing close to the edge, taking risks, and learning from them. Like when you charged up to Chromie at 19:00 and killed her. That's how you carry games.

You also have failed to grasp the reality of Hero League, which is that kills win fights, and fights win games. Higher level players have told you kills aren't important. These players are wrong (actually it's nuanced, but as far as Fenix is concerned your #1 priority should be kills). Kills and deaths are extremely important, and one of the best indicators of carrying a game.

It's so funny that you say this because NotParadox just posted a video on how Hero League makes us worse for this exact reason. They also discussed it when he went on Gank Bush Squad's weekly show where he was a guest.
I'm so afraid of dying that I'm actually holding my warp only to be used as an escape in some situations and after watching the fights where you point it out is definitely having a negative impact. I'm playing WAY too safe and have been underestimating what an impact these kills would have made. A 13 kill game could have easily been 16-17 if I warped and positioned more aggressively.
I think I'm going to play a few QM and unranked games ONLY using my warp offensively to make a habit from your suggestion.


You also have failed to grasp the reality of Hero League, which is that kills win fights, and fights win games. Higher level players have told you kills aren't important. These players are wrong (actually it's nuanced, but as far as Fenix is concerned your #1 priority should be kills). Kills and deaths are extremely important, and one of the best indicators of carrying a game.

You need to be willing to put yourself in more danger in order to have a greater impact. Stop treating yourself like a glass barbie doll, you have a shield and HP bar, use them. If you die then learn and keep trying. No one ever discovered their limits by cowering behind their tank. The best players warp out at 10% HP, not 100%.

Until now I've taken a stance that focusing on the economy of the game and making sure I'm doing everything to get my team the level and talent advantage is the biggest impact thing I can do since a lvl 17 bad team can still beat a better lvl 15 team. This is why I look to solo lane in a lot of these games.
However, I think this has influenced how seldom I use my warp offensively as I'm afraid to die and lose out on any experience gain instead of moving in to secure the kill.

07/20/2018 10:17 PMPosted by Crimson

14:00

No. There are several flaws in your game knowledge here.

The reason you should take top boss because you're level 16 and they're 14 so if they come and try to foolishly fight you a major talent down, you crush them and win the game.

Furthermore, you should not run down to defend a worthless boss that's going to die uselessly on your Fort. You should instead push as 5 with your boss and 16 talent advantage, force and win a fight, then win the game.

It was a major, game throwing mistake to trade their Core for your Fort. You should have won the game right here, but you threw it away.

You also should almost never split up your team at level 16. What if Artanis had engaged 1v5 and died? You would have lost the objective, and probably thrown away all the advantage you had accumulated up until now.

Either everyone stays and pushes for the win, or everyone goes to defend bot. You don't split late game unless it's necessary and safe. In this case it's neither.

I'll admit you are 100% right that my thinking about the situation was wrong. I can see now that we were right in taking our boss, we should have pushed with it and I shouldn't have split to kill boss in bot lane, but I do have a question.
In higher rank games I've watched the games end a lot sooner than in the lower ranked games I've seen Kala do coaching sessions on. Kala said in one of his videos that lower rank players don't know how to identify win conditions clearly (which obviously I'm guilty of) and that's why the games last longer.
As I work on and get better identifying these win conditions, do you think it's worth the risk taking a hard engage while objective is up and pushing with the boss knowing my team may not be strong enough to win the teamfight even with a talent advantage? If we die during the push we're immediately giving them the objective and possibly a turning point in the game. Also, if my team is too skittish to follow my lead and (using this example) try to get the win on the boss push here, what should I do? After identifying and admitting that you're right I can see that our Junkrat (who I thought played well) had the same thought I did and came bot to clear boss. What can I do other than say in chat and voice that we can win with the boss to get them to follow me to the win there?

I rewatched the replay and paid close attention to the times you made notes. I think your analysis and review is phenomenal. This was a game we win and I felt good about, but after looking at the things you point out I can totally see where, when and how I could have had a bigger impact.
Reading your notes actually felt like I got a coaching session just like the ones Kala does and I definitely think it is going to greatly improve my play.
I placed Silver 4 in Season 1, and did the things you describe. Focused hero pool, watched video guides, streams, etc.

I climbed with ~55% winrate or higher every season, eventually making it to Masters, Masters for four seasons running now.

It's hard to say why you can't succeed in winning your games. Maybe you're too slow, maybe you tilt too much (don't chat - one of my best advice for climbing), maybe you're a slow learner.

Whatever it is, "I can't win because of X" is exactly the type of attitude of a loser. A winner thinks "I will do everything I can to win."

If you are doing everything and you just can't, then perhaps you're already at your skill level. Knowledge is not the only thing it takes to play at a certain skill level.
07/23/2018 12:14 PMPosted by gh0st
It's hard to say why you can't succeed in winning your games. Maybe you're too slow, maybe you tilt too much (don't chat - one of my best advice for climbing), maybe you're a slow learner.

When I started this thread and my YouTube channel I was convinced that I was losing games purely because of my team mates being bad. I was getting a lot of MVP games and even on the losses my stats were high and it "felt" like I was performing better than my team.
After the analysis of my games on YouTube I've come to realize that I was just the strongest ant on the mound flexing in a field of stupid. Yes, my team was horrible and yes, I was out performing them. But I wasn't performing well enough to carry us to a win.
I know and have acknowledged from the beginning that I'm not a Master or GM player and am not too prideful to admit that my APM is nowhere near some of the great players in HGC. Getting older and having kids I don't have the time I used to have to practice hours a day and be on a pro level and my old, fat, worn out fingers aren't as "twitchy" as they were in my competitive Counter-Strike days.

On the bright side I did a few Hero League games last night after working on some of the things people have brought up in these posts. First 2 games were wins in less than 10 minutes.
I'm glad you're taking all this in stride. I wish more people would be open to feedback in the forums and showing their replays instead of constantly whining about the matchmaker.

I'm so afraid of dying that I'm actually holding my warp only to be used as an escape in some situations and after watching the fights where you point it out is definitely having a negative impact.


This is why I always say the two worst pieces of advice that are commonly given to beginners is, don't die, and soak. Those two "advice" are actually terrible for learning to get better, too vague and simplistic.
07/23/2018 05:04 PMPosted by Volun
This is why I always say the two worst pieces of advice that are commonly given to beginners is, don't die, and soak. Those two "advice" are actually terrible for learning to get better, too vague and simplistic.

Couldn't agree more now that I'm diving in to it.
I've put so much focus on not dying that I've been missing out on the experience of learning my match ups and how to exploit them.
I focused so hard on soaking, learning camp timers and maps that I missed hard on win conditions.
I find it so funny reading this thread. So many people think they be sharing da wae.

But no one truly knows da wae. Just their wae. Climbed from bronze to gold almost entirely through splitpushing. On two different accounts. One of which I actually got to plat.
I don't think there is "da wae", only wae's to improve yourself.

I've went from trading wins for losses to winning 5 of my last 7...even with trolls and baddies on my team.

I haven't been able to upload any more replays on my channel in the past few days. Birthday party for my oldest and all, been pretty busy. But I will say that after absorbing and practicing the criticism in here I have noticed an uptick in my personal play.

It's not taking the same psychological toll on me that playing in Bronze was before either. It might be lucky matchmaking or too soon to tell but it surely feels like it's making a difference.
Update: All was going well and I was starting a grind until last night that I kept repeatedly getting matched with trolls that were throwing the game for us.
My record went from 7-2 to 10-8 over the past 3 days, most of those losses being incurred last night.
Still winning more than losing though, so my hopes still up.
And it is still marginally better than before when I went from 7-3 in placements to 12-13 in the first 4 days of the season.

I decided that after I upload these last 2 placement games on YouTube just to have them all up, I'm going to focus on specific games that I feel I couldn learn the most from.
Plat/low Dia player here. Going to give my thoughts on your Placement Game 7,Falstad game "without a tank or healer".

First of all, learning to stutter-step is essential to playing most heroes at high level, and a lot of heroes at average level. Falstad is one of those heroes.
Second, you need to accept the draft and not be so negative towards your team. Don't take me wrong, I get your frustrations when you have a bad draft - but in reality it doesn't really matter, especially not at bronze. The game is definitely fairly winnable simply because of how big the mistakes of both teams are. And talking down or blaming your team for it will only make them play worse if not throw the game. A fair tip would be to just disable team chat for that match if you're really annoyed about it to prevent you typing those kind of messages.

Also I suggest you to include your ability bar in future videos to allow people to give tips about what abilities you could've used at what time (too lazy to go count it myself).

Anyway, on to go the match.
First thing you do is slowly walking towards the mid fort and stand around for like 10-20 seconds. Because you don't want to trade damage? Fair enough, just go to a side lane instead. Judging by the game, you should've went bot as Naz can hold a solo lane. Genji, on the other hand, should not be solo laning. You should've moved there even though he was there already and tried pinging him away.

But all right, let's continue. You stay mid lane and keep poking with your q and speak about how you want to take not a single point of damage because you don't have a healer (Tyrande does heal some, tho). I understand the frustration of this, but the solution to this problem is to simply use your hearthstone. Either way, at 2:40 you took some damage and went down to 20% and decided to tap. I honestly would've hearthstoned right there, and used your mount ability to relocate instantly. Would not have taken much longer, honestly, and you would've been full hp instead.

Then at 3:51, Genji arrived from the bot lane that I think you should've been soaking (and flying in instead when the objective starts). Look clearly at the scenario, though. Jaina just did quite a lot of AoE damage. Raynor and li li were low hp. Raynor's heal is on cool down. Li li is almost oom. Jaina just tapped from 60% to full. And you could've had tapped there too and been the same (had you HS'd that time before). Despite you not being able to tap, you have the heal on auto attacks (which does not get a lot of value if you don't stutter step), so engaging with auto attacks would give you some self sustain. Exactly at 3:53, your two teammates decide it's time to engage, and you run away. It was a perfectly winnable battle, heck, you had the advantage for sure. Don't get me wrong, though. You should not be engaging normally when you're down a teammate. But in lower tiers of play, you should play hella aggressive. I'd say it's one of your biggest flaws; you being too afraid to do something because you think it's not the optimal play. Don't get me wrong, it probably isn't. But that's fine. It is bronze, and you have to adapt to your rating. You can't rely on your teammates on low elo, and have to make plays yourself if you want to climb fast. Especially if it seems that your teammates are going in, because you need to make sure those children don't feed. So specifically, exactly at the moment that you pass Jaina coming back from the well and Genji walking back from being pushed away, you should've barrel rolled yourself into them and used your w probably on Raynor and he'd have been dead. You might've have been taunted, but you'd have survived as he was their only damage in your vision area (Azmodan who you did not know was walking back there does not really have burst atm, other than Q which is weak early game). Heck, if it went well and your teammates stayed in, you might've even gotten their li li and Varian.
Anyway, mid objective would've been free if you did that. But moving on. You go in as 4:21, which was good, but then you !@#$% out again. I do not understand that decision. Raynor is alive, I know. But you have two teammates next to you, and a low Varian within your attack range. He even walked up to you. If he taunted you, perfect! Jaina could've put some damage in then. You were full hp, a raynor is not going to kill you within a single taunt at that point. Especially not when you have a Tyrande with you who does have healing. Eventually, after losing Jaina, you do go in and kill Varian (good but too late). And then you stop and let Raynor walk away. Like ok, he pushed you away and you're slowed for a bit. But your trait gives you increased speed after a bit again. And I know you still have your flight, so you could've literally just flown past him and flanked him to secure the kill. Then Tyrande ditches you for top and li li comes to duel you. Fair enough, you may not be able to win that duel, but I'm not sure. Either way, the mistake that assured your loss there is that you walked back, but then barrel rolled your ^-* back onto the objective right on the 2 objective minions. This caused you to tank those, while you want li li to tank them. What you could've done is flank her from the left by using the vision point or go down towards the grass and flank her from there... Essentially anywhere but the middle. Anyway, you did the right thing by leaving after noticing and you weren't going to win. Afterwards you ask what you could've done better - you could've pinged Tyrande while she tried to leave once on her, then once on the objective. It sometimes works.

Then at 6:56, you're focusing the diablo still, despite that Varian is charging your Nazeebo with Tyrande's hunter's mark on him.

7:57. You should've spampinged retreat and typed "10" a few times to tell them that you need to soak before engaging. You never really want to take such a fight. Either way, diving the li li is not necessarily a bad play, but the issue is that the Raynor flanked your backline so they all fled right at the same time of you diving. You should've either retreated or went on the Raynor. Honestly, I'd have retreated at that point due to level 10 and just flown to mid lane. Soaked/pushed that lane onto their towers and went top, soaked that.

9:27. You say that you could've done nothing because you were too late. Completely untrue. This is where gust shines, you could've gusted that. A simple gust wouldn't have been too late, and you also could've barrel rolled into the gust to be 0,3 sec faster. Jaina would've survived that way, as it seems she was killed by Varian's AFTER you had turned around to move away (for the first time).

10:26. You get charged, flipped, you dash away nicely... but then you gust? After you were already in safe range? This was your moment to make a big play, a moment of glory. Your Nazeebo just respawned, 3 of you were 60%, all of them were damaged to around 60%, they had no creep and they were MISSING raynor. So it was essentially a 5v4. What you should've done was, instead of gusting instantly, to walk back a little bit more and fly behind them to gust them all towards your core. Doing this should've killed all of them. Would've given you both objectives for free too.
11:31. Genji went in, was being attacked and had to retreat because he could not win solo. And what you should've done there was head in instantly (with barrel roll), pop your abilities and auto attack him down. Tyrande was right behind you and Genji might've went back in if you were. Instead you waited and did nothing, and 4 seconds later his team arrives and the opportunity to kill their main damage is lost. Afterwards you decide to keep fighting them, which wasn't great as they were getting obj bot, but fair enough. It should've closed the exp gap somewhat if you killed them. The issue is at 12:00, which was a terrible gust. It's great that you tried to save Genji, but he wasn't going to die as Raynor was retreating already. The thing is, you actually saved the Varian as Jaina was coming to help and even used his Cone of Cold in advance (which probably would've killed Varian). Anyway, this causes them to get away and you lose all the exp they could've given you, and you lost bot objective. And they're pushing your core. A real bad result. If you're far behind in a game like this, I suggest taking more risky plays (such as potentially sacrificing the Genji for an assured Varian & Li li kill) as you need to do things to bring you back into the game.

After this, you're being negative in team chat again. And it seems to escalate as there is more negativity which reduces morale immensely. At this point, you are extremely far behind, so you need to do something big to get back in.

The defense around 14:00 is good and your flight attempt was a good play, although you might've been able to get both of them if you went a bit more to the left (although this is speculation).

The call to get top objective was the only play as that objective would finish your core. You should've pinged it and maybe even typed something like "this obj ends" or w.e to make that clear to them. The fact that you were all split for so long at that point assured your loss.

You should understand why a lot of players use Falstad to rank up at low elo. It's not because of his poke or teamfight potential. It's because he soaks the side lanes. Flies in quicker than someone using a mount. Secures kills by doing so. And uses gust to either make big plays or save allies. Basically, an all around character. I'll give you credit for trying to make big plays, but I did not notice you making use of his global for soaking or such.
There is nothing on your end you can do to get better. You're already good.

You're immersed in terrible players and they will always fail you. They'll always pick poorly and not know how to fill and won't attend objectives and won't throw heals and will miss their skillshots and miss their cc and they'll leave you to die.

There is no real way to climb. MMR is broken and unfair. The ranking system is one of the worst in the history of gaming. I urge you to quit. If the game isn't fun, stop playing it. If the game is a consistent source of stress, stop playing it.

I've played with and against you, I know you're not bad.

The way the gauge ranking in this game is broken and unfair, you'll never get a rank appropriate to your skill level.

But blizzard will insist that you are the worst of the worst. And they will do nothing to help you, they will not acknowledge ANYTHING.

In blizzards attempt at balance they've created gaming communism. Each game is like an emulation of a grading curve in public school. If one kid is allergic to peanuts, nobody can have any.
Save yourself the hundreds of games, and find something that is actually satisfying to play.

This game is dead already, and you're trying to brute force yourself through their broken garbage.
07/16/2018 06:52 AMPosted by MooglesBrew
Now I'll preface that I just did the placement matches on another person's account just to see how I will do


That's not something you want to admit to on the forums.
That's weird. I suck at this game and always get put in silver or gold (whenever I feel like playing HL anyway) but I can never progress a rank. I win 5, lose 5. Win 2, lose 2. I have never finished at a higher rank than I started.
I don't want Plat for the sake of bragging rights to say that I'm plat. I want to be matched with people I don't have to carry. Competitive games that are fun.


I've been saying this for years... you will not find it ever in this game, the sad truth is most players don't care about playing the right way.

The way the matchmaker is designed is to prevent you from having quality games, you would assume that the more you win, they better the enemy team gets and the better your team gets... FALSE, what happens is the opposite, your team gets worst and enemy gets better.

Only the GMs can do this 90+% win rate bronze to masters, but I want to see a gold player go back to bronze and watch him not make it past silver. To be able to single handedly carry games, you need to be 100x better than everyone.
07/26/2018 08:19 PMPosted by Raven
I don't want Plat for the sake of bragging rights to say that I'm plat. I want to be matched with people I don't have to carry. Competitive games that are fun.


I've been saying this for years... you will not find it ever in this game, the sad truth is most players don't care about playing the right way.

The way the matchmaker is designed is to prevent you from having quality games, you would assume that the more you win, they better the enemy team gets and the better your team gets... FALSE, what happens is the opposite, your team gets worst and enemy gets better.

Only the GMs can do this 90+% win rate bronze to masters, but I want to see a gold player go back to bronze and watch him not make it past silver. To be able to single handedly carry games, you need to be 100x better than everyone.

Honestly, as someone who was placed above gold from the very start and never dropped down, I'd be interested in trying to climb out of bronze/silver/gold. Sadly, I can't exactly go throwing games, nor can I create a new account to play in Bronze as it requires so many heroes at lv 5.
Holai, Volun, Archonite and Crimson.

A common thread in all your responses was that I wasnt taking risks or playing aggressive enough. I've been working on offensive warps, stutter stepping and trying to make much riskier play as well as the map specific tips youve given me.

I have put a much larger focus controlling my team by pinging more, giving SPECIFIC instructions and telling the team right from the start what lane I'm going to followed simply by "try to get level 10 before they do and after 13 dont split and give them the chance to collapse on us 4v5".

I've gone 23 and 5 over the last 3 days.
Thats gotten me from the bottom of Bronze 3 to the top of Silver 5 at a promo game. Lots of MVP games. My KDA is now 6.5, its gone up by 0.5 since at the start of this it was already 6.

My match quality has already increased DRAMATICALLY. I mean it's low silver so I still see my share of strange things but since my last post the other night where I was continually running in to trolls and people throwing games to tank their MMR I seem to have distanced myself away from that trash enough to avoid it altogether. I do have to say "stay as 5, dont let them hit us 4v5" A LOT, but it's paying off. I went from 10-8 in a 3 day period to 23-5 in the same length period and I give you guys ALL the credit.

The losses don't feel as brutal or as pointless and some are really close games.
I'm in the process of recording a game now that I'm going to upload tonight.
I hope you guys watch to see the fruit of your labor.

I suggest you to include your ability bar in future videos to allow people to give tips about what abilities you could've used at what time

I'd love to do that but not sure how.


Genji, on the other hand, should not be solo laning. You should've moved there even though he was there already and tried pinging him away.

Him and Naz were last 2 picks in draft and was making no effort to communicate, so I immediately had a bad taste for the Genji. You are right though, I should have taken the lane from him and let him go up.


at 2:40 you took some damage and went down to 20% and decided to tap.

Yep, something similar was said about my Placement game 2 when I was playing Blaze. It wasn't the right choice here and I end up not having the well when I needed it. This is something I've been focusing on.


But in lower tiers of play, you should play hella aggressive. I'd say it's one of your biggest flaws; you being too afraid to do something because you think it's not the optimal play. Don't get me wrong, it probably isn't. But that's fine. It is bronze, and you have to adapt to your rating. You can't rely on your teammates on low elo, and have to make plays yourself if you want to climb fast.

Couldn't agree more now that I've been reaping the rewards of this advice. I was taking the part where I cant rely on my team for help as an excuse to play too safe and not die instead of going aggro and trying to make big plays.


the mistake that assured your loss there is that you walked back, but then barrel rolled your ^-* back onto the objective right on the 2 objective minions. This caused you to tank those, while you want li li to tank them. What you could've done is flank her from the left by using the vision point or go down towards the grass and flank her from there.

Yeah, I was tilted straight from draft and instead of getting creative and looking for ways to get Lili to tank the minions I just sighed, did what I could and left.


What you should've done was, instead of gusting instantly, to walk back a little bit more and fly behind them to gust them all towards your core. Doing this should've killed all of them. Would've given you both objectives for free too.

Never even considered that. That would have been epic and given us a chance to turn the game.


I'll give you credit for trying to make big plays, but I did not notice you making use of his global for soaking or such.

After making a focus of playing riskier trying for big plays I don't think I deserve the credit here in this game. You pointed out a lot of plays I should have thought of/attempted.
I definitely did a poor job managing my team and soaking lanes, I should have been bot from the start as you said and used Flight to get to obj. I stayed in my feels over draft and didn't actively look to make opportunities, but only took the opportunities they gave me on a silver platter.

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