Tyrande changes, her new support breakdown.

General Discussion
08/24/2018 11:40 AMPosted by Volun
Can Xenterex come into this thread and shut down
Because I shut him down the last time, that's why.

You can't argue against this

Q is now QQ
W for more QQ
E for more QQ
R for more QQ

Tyrande is QQ.

YOU CANT !!
08/24/2018 11:37 AMPosted by BFGOMFG
08/24/2018 11:33 AMPosted by Urza
I'm sorry, why are we downvoting rcw's rational and well presented posts? Even if you disagree with their general position; they're presenting good information. Have some intellectual integrity people.


because they amount to no more than "NEW TYRANDE SUCKS. UNPLAYABLE"

when its actually not based in rationality, numbers, experience, or logic.

completely ignoring the insane increase in healing, utility, and mitigation.
Thats a pretty troll response bfgomfg.

Rcw identifying the owl piercing bug is supremely valuable. Its something that now I know I'm going to be watching out for when she makes it to PTR.

Rcw's take on the change on Tyrande's talents is also logical, it just places value differently than you do.

There's no need to strawman, use hyperbole, or attack ad hominem, all of which you are doing or have done.
Your OP is interesting and valuable, elevate the quality of the rest of your arguments to that level.
08/24/2018 11:48 AMPosted by Urza
it just places value differently than you do.


the title of this thread is SUPPORT breakdown.

yet his posts only address damage breakdowns. and hybrid breakdowns. they dont even touch on really ANY of the support aside from the correction where the 1 mitigation talent only applies to the first hit.

i only attacked personally when he tried to use himself as an authority which is NOT WELCOMED this discussion.
08/24/2018 11:56 AMPosted by BFGOMFG
08/24/2018 11:48 AMPosted by Urza
it just places value differently than you do.


the title of this thread is SUPPORT breakdown.

yet his posts only address damage breakdowns. and hybrid breakdowns. they dont even touch on really ANY of the support aside from the correction where the 1 mitigation talent only applies to the first hit.

i only attacked personally when he tried to use himself as an authority which is NOT WELCOMED this discussion.

And your authority is? Hypocritical biased shill. Every post of yours is narrow-scoped bull!@#$.
Come at me kido.

Tyrande owl :
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/heroes/topic/20758706948#post-10

Malfurion leaf indicator
https://www.reddit.com/r/heroesofthestorm/comments/7xbq8y/please_give_malfurion_something_like_stukovs/du8k5k3/

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/heroes/topic/20762036692?page=2

You think that you can downvote my simple QQ answer about this "crap rework", because this is SIMPLE ???!!!

Come at me, with your ignorant "little short" post.

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/heroes/topic/20764386284?page=10#post-185

One single issue that blizzard didn't even addressed... is the owl scouting paradox... because now you want to use your owl to stack QQ, instead of stacking your quest...

HOW CAN OWL AND ITS SCOUTING ROLE BE ADRESSED LIKE THIS, WHEN THE MAJOR PROBLEM WITH STACKING, WAS, AT THE PRICE OF MAP VISION ?
SOLVED ??

BECAUSE NOW, YOU WONT SEND YOUR OWL, BECAUSE ONCE AGAIN YOU NEED TO STACK ( QQ ) WITH ?

retardation/10

They did nothing... JUST QQ everywhere. I basically covered every aspect and problems met with the last version and give more flavours and beyond, at lv 20; for her ultimate.

You can't even scratch 5% of Tyrande's design since the last two years and you think that you are smart, kido ?

Downvote me with your feelings or try to argue with my "revamp" if you can.

On every aspect, simple as that. Tyrande is QQ.
08/24/2018 01:04 PMPosted by Beloresin
HOW CAN OWL AND ITS SCOUTING ROLE BE ADRESSED LIKE THIS, WHEN THE MAJOR PROBLEM WITH STACKING, WAS, AT THE PRICE OF MAP VISION ?
SOLVED ??


Yeah, the owl is still a scouting tool and now they want us to use a long cd ability in combat for faster healing reset. Also Lunar Flare might lose its purpose to interupt or follow up because it might need to be hold back for resetting the heal. Including those two abilities into resets is just a bad idea as you get encouraged to use those skills unpurposefully against their nature just to fuel your healing performance and as a main healer they might want to balance her around that. Want to scout bushes? Ok, but then you might not be able to quicker reset your heals. Want to use Lunar Blaze and hit 1 target or ideally 2-3 targetes? The decision is up to you, you might want to hit the 1 important target but you could instead hit 2-3 targets for 2-3times more heal resets. It's just stupid!
First of all, it seems a lot of people want Tyrande to be able to put out good healing numbers WHILE keeping her damage and utility. That isn't possible. Heroes have to be balanced and if she's going to be a solo healer, which is what a lot of the community asked for, then she needs to be in line with other solo healers in terms of damage and utility or else there's no reason to pick the other healers.

So either she remains as she is, a DPS with some healing ability and an AOE stun, or she becomes a viable solo healer, which means she cannot be allowed to do DPS damage. How many other healers have a stun as a baseline ability? One. How many other healers have an AOE stun baseline? NONE. Stuns are very powerful and so a healer that can solo heal AND AOE stun plus debuff enemies brings huge utility to the game.

I think the new Tyrande is borderline busted based only on the numbers. And yeah, I know it's shocking for a HEALER to be focused on HEALING. I know it's insane to QQ when Q heals and expect a healer to HEAL as much as they can. Like I said, you can either have a DPS that does good damage with some healing and utility, or a HEALER that heals but can't do DPS type damage. You can't have both.
I don't see any inconsistency in using owl/E as a scouting/stun tool while providing Q cooldown reduction. You are always going to use owl to scout when you need it. Is enemy at the boss? You will use owl because the information gained is more valuable than anything else. The E will be used to chain stun an enemy AND give you cooldown. If you use it improperly, then that's a skill based issue and you'll be punished for spamming.

In a teamfight, you'll never need owl to scout because it's 5 v 5 and you know where everyone is. If enemy players are missing, then you need to choose whether to use your owl to scout or for fighting, that's a judgment skillbased issue and adds more options and increases the skill level for Tyrande. Many players don't understand the value of having vision and knowing where the enemy is so they'll only use owl for fighting/healing reduction.

I see nothing wrong with the kind of design Tyrande will have.
08/24/2018 01:53 PMPosted by azxcvbnm321
So either she remains as she is, a DPS with some healing ability and an AOE stun, or she becomes a viable solo healer, which means she cannot be allowed to do DPS damage.


She can keep some damage, but for this you need some acceptable baseline values without the feel of overnerfing numbers AND it should come by at the cost of otherwise better healing. I mean look at Brightwing, she has a 260 damage(lv1) center hit Arcane Flare, and this on a 6s cd, it is already MORE than Tyrande's Sentinel and Lunar Flare together. Sure it's not as easy to accomplish but it is possible with Brightwing, and ever saw sb complaining about a decently strong damaging ability on a supporter?

08/24/2018 01:53 PMPosted by azxcvbnm321
How many other healers have a stun as a baseline ability? One. How many other healers have an AOE stun baseline? NONE.


Note that the importance of short stuns isn't the highest. If it's about interupting abilities, Sleep, Silence or Displacements are often already enough and each support has its own variation. Also we are talking about a 0.75s stun, it's decently short, just enough for follow ups.
08/24/2018 12:07 PMPosted by Uziel
And your authority is? Hypocritical biased shill. Every post of yours is narrow-scoped bull!@#$.


ive already posted my comparative credentials.

but alas. Im not making this argument on authority. Im making the argument on numbers and application. If you would kindly read the original post not one did i reference myself.

every part of that post can stand merit on its own.
I would like to throw my hat in to the ring.

I used to play in master and grandmaster league back on the original tyrande. She could easily solo support then, and these changes, as mentioned in the OP, are changes that would bring her closer to that again.

I for one cant wait to use her higher skillcap to my advantage in the mitigation game. I rose to grandmaster playing brightwing and tyrande as my 2 main supports and BW was definitely an expert at quick thinking and damage mitigation back then. Differentiating the lower ranks from the higher ranks.

I just cant wait for what is in store for the new tyrande rework! I am super stoked! I can see her easily rising up to the top again.
08/24/2018 02:00 PMPosted by azxcvbnm321
I don't see any inconsistency in using owl/E as a scouting/stun tool while providing Q cooldown reduction.


With 4 attacks and 1.25 aps you did spend 3.2s attacking enemies and have lowered her "Q" by 8s, means she did reset it after 3.2s. Now you spend with 1.25 aps, 6-times attacking 4.8s attacking to lower the cooldown by 9s, so you wait 0.2s after 6-times attacking or just attack once and you get 2 charges of healing. While this look like a buff you still need to wait another 2s to use another heal when you get 2 charges back, even if you just needed 1. If you need to fill this 1.8-2.4s gap you have to use your skills. The reward is 2 charges instead of just 1 as it does right now. She will be very reliant on using those abilities in combat if she needs to pull out many heals to keep allies alive, but if she runs out of mana just because a W+E rotation costs 130 mana while burning 30 mana with each heal you will be likely drained for your mana real quick, just because you might need to keep up with healing by additionally using ability resets which cost tremendous amounts of mana. Tyrande might have real mana issues with those quests for lowered cost gone without anything to get in return. The cheapest way to reset would be to autoattack with her but focus her and she won't be able to do this without peels, forcing her to use abilities for urgent resets or to risk attacking. Only her Starfall might get real good with this change.

Tyrande needs lowered mana costs for Sentinel if it should work with her as main healer, otherwise she will be played in a niche where she can additionally heal allies by capitalizing on "Mark of Mending" as it doesn't cost mana to mark enemies.

Edit: Update to calculation using 1.33 aps, not 1.25
4 attacks = 3.008s instead of 3.2s
- means she got to attack 4-times for current Tyrande for 1 charge reset (not really changing the result)
- and for new Tyrande it means 6 attacks in 4.51s +9s from reset and wait 0.49s, not 0.2s, or attack an additional time. This however means, the gap between old "Q" reset and new double "Q" reset is 2s(1.5s if projectile would hit instant).
08/24/2018 03:04 PMPosted by Evildrake
1.25 aps


did they change her speed? currently its 1.33 aps
08/24/2018 03:18 PMPosted by BFGOMFG
08/24/2018 03:04 PMPosted by Evildrake
1.25 aps


did they change her speed? currently its 1.33 aps


Oh yeah, you're right, it was used to be that high if I remember right, did forget when it got changed. So updating to my previous post:
4 attacks = 3.008s instead of 3.2s
- means she got to attack 4-times for current Tyrande for 1 charge reset (not really changing the result)
- and for new Tyrande it means 6 attacks in 4.51s +9s from reset and wait 0.49s, not 0.2s, or attack an additional time. This however means, the gap between old "Q" reset and new double "Q" reset is 2s(1.5s if projectile would hit instant).
08/24/2018 03:40 PMPosted by Evildrake
08/24/2018 03:18 PMPosted by BFGOMFG
...

did they change her speed? currently its 1.33 aps


Oh yeah, you're right, it was used to be that high if I remember right, did forget when it got changed. So updating to my previous post:
4 attacks = 3.008s instead of 3.2s
- means she got to attack 4-times for current Tyrande for 1 charge reset (not really changing the result)
- and for new Tyrande it means 6 attacks in 4.51s +9s from reset and wait 0.49s, not 0.2s, or attack an additional time. This however means, the gap between old "Q" reset and new double "Q" reset is 2s(1.5s if projectile would hit instant).


tbh i think it'll be overall better because if you can perfect using just enough heal (not wasting it on "topping off" when you dont need to) you will be in a much better spot than currently. as well as being able to stack 30% resistance in a split second.

she will have a heal in the tank for when she needs it. or 2 heals asap.

I believe in the imperfect application she will overall be in a much better position. factoring in she doesnt just get to stand there and attack all the time. She will be moving around etc. I think it'll handle a lot like nova's level 13 talent that gives her 2 pinning shots. While yes it increases the cooldown, overall it is more beneficial to have 2 of them.
08/24/2018 11:41 AMPosted by Beloresin
Because I shut him down the last time, that's why.


Minus the part where you didn't. Whatever I see of your posts tends to be self-assured tripe that's too busy celebrating its alleged "perfection" to even consider that you're blatantly wrong.

Which comes as doubly silly when you try to play the "zomg fallacy" game and miss that your key fixation on yourself is grounded in falacy — "zomg can't be argued, its perfect".

Looking back, you had a stupid spat with me back in april on a topic I made regarding tyrande, so given how 'perfect' you think her to be now, its not a small wonder you just rant off and try to denounce anything that doesn't suit your fancy, esp given the current changes in the gamescom build pretty much rubs the same sort of qualms you had in my topic.

The sad part in all this, is I could just quote myself back from april and the comments would pretty much apply here too because you're just doing the same thing over and over again. I likely didn't respond to your delusional sense of victory in whatever topic before cuz I'd probably just re-quote myself given how much you skimp on reading to toot your own horn, but ya know, the catch being if you aren't going to respond in an intelligent manner beyond the childish "nuh nuh nuh, I have infinity times infinity armor so I win" there wouldn't be much point in doing that.

Your modus operandi is to be topically dissatisfied with specific changes regardless of impact, so you just conjure whatever you think to be 'good enough' as a claim for serendipity and pretend it automatically wins, ya know, without proving magical stuff like "rational" arguments or persuasive devices to the table.

"but but, my identity property proofs!" yea, different fields of thought have different 'proofs' and 'fallacies': being able to claim a math associative/community identity works in math cuz the process of showing work proves the statement. The capacity to assign a label to something doesn't mean that label is actually suited to the assignment given. Or should I surmise you are/were one of those kids that just calls out somethings as [mine!] and had parent/guardian spoil you enough that you just assumed that to be the case and try to pull that sort of crap outside of the domicile with where you dwell? Cuz the while "I win cuz I say I win" complex pretty much fits that projection too.

Topically, this doesn't even need to fixate on your either as much of the riling people having in denouncing the in-work changes for the tyrande rework (hint: placeholders in the kit) as other posters have a similar fixation on types of changes and bemoan the change on impulse and look to latch on to whatever 'proof' or number (especially percentages) that catch their fancy, and then copy/paste the same crap in as many topics as they can find, oft, regardless of context and content of other posts and replies.

also *spoiler alert* the fixation of claim for 'shutting me down' is the same sort of logic error that leads you to think you're astutely decrying the proposed changes for tyrande, so if you were remotely as 'perfect' as you so claim, you should have noticed the glaring genetic fallacy that starts your magic circular reasoning that fuels your effectual delusion. The funny part in all that being, if you were to actually break form and notice all this (and ya know, not post a characteristic reply just doing more of the same from above) then you'd either find yourself changing your position (and thus denouncing your 'perfection') which can't happen, or you'd just not reply to me. To which 1) you have done that before and 2) offsets your superficial sense of accomplishment in pretending your 'standing up to me' is little more than patting yourself on the back via ignorance.

But feel free to refute any of that with more effort than 'i'm rubber and you're glue'.
08/24/2018 09:36 PMPosted by Xenterex
08/24/2018 11:41 AMPosted by Beloresin
Because I shut him down the last time, that's why.


Minus the part where you didn't. Whatever I see of your posts tends to be self-assured tripe that's too busy celebrating its alleged "perfection" to even consider that you're blatantly wrong.

Which comes as doubly silly when you try to play the "zomg fallacy" game and miss that your key fixation on yourself is grounded in falacy — "zomg can't be argued, its perfect".

Looking back, you had a stupid spat with me back in april on a topic I made regarding tyrande, so given how 'perfect' you think her to be now, its not a small wonder you just rant off and try to denounce anything that doesn't suit your fancy, esp given the current changes in the gamescom build pretty much rubs the same sort of qualms you had in my topic.

The sad part in all this, is I could just quote myself back from april and the comments would pretty much apply here too because you're just doing the same thing over and over again. I likely didn't respond to your delusional sense of victory in whatever topic before cuz I'd probably just re-quote myself given how much you skimp on reading to toot your own horn, but ya know, the catch being if you aren't going to respond in an intelligent manner beyond the childish "nuh nuh nuh, I have infinity times infinity armor so I win" there wouldn't be much point in doing that.

Your modus operandi is to be topically dissatisfied with specific changes regardless of impact, so you just conjure whatever you think to be 'good enough' as a claim for serendipity and pretend it automatically wins, ya know, without proving magical stuff like "rational" arguments or persuasive devices to the table.

"but but, my identity property proofs!" yea, different fields of thought have different 'proofs' and 'fallacies': being able to claim a math associative/community identity works in math cuz the process of showing work proves the statement. The capacity to assign a label to something doesn't mean that label is actually suited to the assignment given. Or should I surmise you are/were one of those kids that just calls out somethings as [mine!] and had parent/guardian spoil you enough that you just assumed that to be the case and try to pull that sort of crap outside of the domicile with where you dwell? Cuz the while "I win cuz I say I win" complex pretty much fits that projection too.

Topically, this doesn't even need to fixate on your either as much of the riling people having in denouncing the in-work changes for the tyrande rework (hint: placeholders in the kit) as other posters have a similar fixation on types of changes and bemoan the change on impulse and look to latch on to whatever 'proof' or number (especially percentages) that catch their fancy, and then copy/paste the same crap in as many topics as they can find, oft, regardless of context and content of other posts and replies.

also *spoiler alert* the fixation of claim for 'shutting me down' is the same sort of logic error that leads you to think you're astutely decrying the proposed changes for tyrande, so if you were remotely as 'perfect' as you so claim, you should have noticed the glaring genetic fallacy that starts your magic circular reasoning that fuels your effectual delusion. The funny part in all that being, if you were to actually break form and notice all this (and ya know, not post a characteristic reply just doing more of the same from above) then you'd either find yourself changing your position (and thus denouncing your 'perfection') which can't happen, or you'd just not reply to me. To which 1) you have done that before and 2) offsets your superficial sense of accomplishment in pretending your 'standing up to me' is little more than patting yourself on the back via ignorance.

But feel free to refute any of that with more effort than 'i'm rubber and you're glue'.


ultra burn
Oh, I just noticed that the new reset system using abilities will also cause another issue with Tyrande. Before you could use Starfall to depush a stacked up minion/mercenary push, now you got to save it up for teamfight so you actually benefit of the Heal reset procs. Just another not well thought trough change, her PvE aspect is getting worse and worse while it was never good.

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