Blizzard the reason Tyrande rework is getting so much backlash

General Discussion
At the moment there's two type of Tyrande players. The owl build and lunar flare build.

We may not agree on our level 1 talent but we do agree that we like to do damage but also offer our team support similar to Yrel,Tyrael and Zarya do by being warriors but offering their team a little bit extra "Support".

This Tyrande 3.0 doesn't satisfy what most of us Tyrande mains about about her instead it takes her entire role and reverts it.

We aren't crying because we lost our "OP freelo" we're crying because it's like if you reworked Lunara and removed her entire poison aspect or if the Azmodan rework change Azmodan from this long range area damage; minion summoning hero into a short range single target dps.

You're not giving her a 2018 touch up, you are taking away a hero we love
Yes all 5% of us
Lunar flair and owl builds seem to be intact, just slightly weaker in the end game. This is a good thing, because it allows her to be strong early game as well as late game. With infinitely stacking talents they had no choice but to under-power her in the lower levels which lead to very uneven games.

I would also think that her damage and healing numbers will continue to be tweaked until she's released.

I hope she can continue, if speced for it and played well, continue to deal good damage as well as heal. But what is clear is that she FINALLY has realistic team healing capacity and all of her other moves and attacks has synergies with that. She heals better by damaging the enemy team with attacks and skillshots. This means her aggressive playstyle will hopefully remain a key focus of her character.
She will be very good dueler now and then once teamfight happens she will be much more capable of healing.
08/23/2018 02:38 PMPosted by DomiNation
She will be very good dueler now and then once teamfight happens she will be much more capable of healing.


She'll be a good dueler because she has double the heals and no damage?
08/23/2018 02:33 PMPosted by Kayosiv
Lunar flair and owl builds seem to be intact, just slightly weaker in the end game. This is a good thing, because it allows her to be strong early game as well as late game. With infinitely stacking talents they had no choice but to under-power her in the lower levels which lead to very uneven games.

I would also think that her damage and healing numbers will continue to be tweaked until she's released.

I hope she can continue, if speced for it and played well, continue to deal good damage as well as heal. But what is clear is that she FINALLY has realistic team healing capacity and all of her other moves and attacks has synergies with that. She heals better by damaging the enemy team with attacks and skillshots. This means her aggressive playstyle will hopefully remain a key focus of her character.


Losing 33% Attack damage, Attack speed steroid and baseline piercing owl isn't just a small thing though.

That's a lot for her to give up simply for two charges of her Q.
08/23/2018 02:41 PMPosted by Argeon
08/23/2018 02:38 PMPosted by DomiNation
She will be very good dueler now and then once teamfight happens she will be much more capable of healing.


She'll be a good dueler because she has double the heals and no damage?


The cringey thing about this is Tyrande 2.0 already duels completely fine actually I win crazy duels all the time with her in master tier.

Nothing about Tyrande 3.0 changes seems like that will make her a better dueler than she currently is
i disagree with the original poster i am disliking the tyrande rework because other people do not like it as well
08/23/2018 02:45 PMPosted by Darmonic
08/23/2018 02:41 PMPosted by Argeon
...

She'll be a good dueler because she has double the heals and no damage?


The cringey thing about this is Tyrande 2.0 already duels completely fine actually I win crazy duels all the time with her in master tier.

Nothing about Tyrande 3.0 changes seems like that will make her a better dueler than she currently is


Nope, not with her killing potential gone, she only outlasts and survives... until she runs out of mana.
08/23/2018 02:33 PMPosted by Kayosiv
Lunar flair and owl builds seem to be intact, just slightly weaker in the end game. This is a good thing, because it allows her to be strong early game as well as late game. With infinitely stacking talents they had no choice but to under-power her in the lower levels which lead to very uneven games.

Lmao, are you serious? xD
"slightly weaker" for you is:
Lunar Flare - damage on level 20 reduced from about 1067,6 (30 stacks) to 657. Yeah... slightly weaker.
Owl damage on level 20 reduced from 1283 (60 stacks) to 857 (to squishies) - 1087 (to tanks). Yeah... slightly weaker.
But Owl build was actually completely removed. You no longer hit multiple enemies. Or only half of your owls do... And You no longer get cooldown reduction from hitting enemies. There is literally no owl build anymore.
And what stronger early game are you talking about? Both her W and E are weaker from level 1 till the end of the game... Nothing stronger there.

08/23/2018 02:33 PMPosted by Kayosiv
I hope she can continue, if speced for it and played well, continue to deal good damage as well as heal. But what is clear is that she FINALLY has realistic team healing capacity and all of her other moves and attacks has synergies with that. She heals better by damaging the enemy team with attacks and skillshots. This means her aggressive playstyle will hopefully remain a key focus of her character.

Her healing per second has been increased by roughly 35%. If you take Tassadar and increase his shield amount by 35% will he be able to solo support?
08/23/2018 02:28 PMPosted by Darmonic
At the moment there's two type of Tyrande players. The owl build and lunar flare build.
Or the on average considerably more powerful auto attack build. I mean seriously her auto attack damage ends up nuts due to its infinite scaling as long as one focus on a single target.

The problem is that people are complaining about a rework that is not even public yet. They are using pre-release balance and footage to judge something without hands on experience.

I will judge her once I hands on play. I will hands on play once she is released to live.
08/23/2018 02:58 PMPosted by DrSuperGood
08/23/2018 02:28 PMPosted by Darmonic
At the moment there's two type of Tyrande players. The owl build and lunar flare build.
Or the on average considerably more powerful auto attack build. I mean seriously her auto attack damage ends up nuts due to its infinite scaling as long as one focus on a single target.

The problem is that people are complaining about a rework that is not even public yet. They are using pre-release balance and footage to judge something without hands on experience.

I will judge her once I hands on play. I will hands on play once she is released to live.
Dont worry, everyone forgets about the AA build, even though its the strongest, least scaling reliant, most generally applicable build.
Generally the pickrates hover around:
70+% Owl (noobs, stat padders, memers)
20+% Lunar Flare (People who can correctly draft stunlock tyrande)
5% Mark Build (Stutterstep elites who needed to draft an offhealer)

-In reality the owl build actually should only be drafted about 5-10% of the time. It can sometimes be useful on channeling maps like ToD or AV when the enemy is comped to cluster, or if the enemy has no sustain healing. Otherwise its literally just bad.
-Lunar Blaze is picked exactly the right amount, these people know wtf they are doing.
-Rangers Mark should be the generalist babi tier build with the 70% pickrate. It has double the contribution to actually winning a game as the Owl Build, the difference is that the Rangers Mark build makes everyone else on your team look good on the scoreboard through insane armor shred uptime, while the Owl Build makes you look "good" through stat padding.

Doesnt matter now though. If you're wrong and Blizzard keeps these numbers Tyrande will go from niche tier to dumpster tier in 0 seconds flat.
08/23/2018 02:58 PMPosted by DrSuperGood
I will judge her once I hands on play. I will hands on play once she is released to live.
I will continue to get mad and !@#$post about her numbers because Blizzard takes hints the way that Adamantium takes nerfgun darts.
From what I can tell all the crazy %^-*posting about pre-release Azmodan had a positive effect, they bumped his numbers up before he went live, so I'm going to join the fray for the sake of Whisperwind as well. Wish me luck.
I hope we get more of an explanation of the changes and design goals than just the short blurb at the end of a hero's patch notes. Even a blog post would be good.

Community managers, if you're listening, please make this happen.
I don't like the overall terrible damage, but you'll get no lunar flare complaints from me. Not having the range gated behind the quest is amazing. And 300 base damage with the quest done is respectable.

As much as I hate her right click doing less damage than her hubbys and dinky owls that don't pierce without using a activatable, I love lunar flare range not being a quest and I love old shadowstalk.
08/23/2018 04:14 PMPosted by Shmorrior
Community managers, if you're listening, please make this happen.


I don't think we have any Community Managers here at HotS.
08/23/2018 04:16 PMPosted by Raze
I don't like the overall terrible damage, but you'll get no lunar flare complaints from me. Not having the range gated behind the quest is amazing. And 300 base damage with the quest done is respectable.

As much as I hate her right click doing less damage than her hubbys and dinky owls that don't pierce without using a activatable, I love lunar flare range not being a quest and I love old shadowstalk.


Thats a good point. The extra range is very much appreciated
08/23/2018 02:54 PMPosted by WereElf

Her healing per second has been increased by roughly 35%. If you take Tassadar and increase his shield amount by 35% will he be able to solo support?


You're not taking into account that her abilities now reduce heal times as well as her attacks, and that shadowstalk is now an AoE teamwide heal.

If she can quickly cast 2 heals, throw out an attack, stun, and an owl and get 2 more, that's more burst healing then she could ever dream of in her current state.
I don't think this actually backlash is about Tyrande as much as what people have come to expect from Blizzard and the reworks. I don't think people really trust Blizzard if they ever did.
08/23/2018 04:48 PMPosted by Kayosiv
08/23/2018 02:54 PMPosted by WereElf

Her healing per second has been increased by roughly 35%. If you take Tassadar and increase his shield amount by 35% will he be able to solo support?


You're not taking into account that her abilities now reduce heal times as well as her attacks, and that shadowstalk is now an AoE teamwide heal.

If she can quickly cast 2 heals, throw out an attack, stun, and an owl and get 2 more, that's more burst healing then she could ever dream of in her current state.

She currently has abilities that reduce her heal. It used to be 8.0s cd. Now it's 12s, reduced by 2s for each AA, up to 3 with a lvl 4 talent. In the new version, the cd is increased to 15s, and the reduction is decreased to 1.5s for each AA. She gets 2 charges, which she'll blow in the opening 3-4s of a teamfight, and then be utterly useless because Blizz stripped her damage.

They've taken her in the direction of Uther-type burst healing, but without the AoE heal (other than her new shadowstalk) and without the staying power to survive the inevitable dive + AoE during the team fights. Her stun is still a skillshot and has reduced damage. Her mark is harder to take advantage of because she now has no base damage to multiply with that -25 armor, and she still has no functional escape aside from an ult which is designed to be used as a team ambush/engage.

They can give her bigger numbers, but with the bigger cds, and reduced complementary utility, this is a nerf and a big one. She's as useless as a mage who just blew their cds.
Just my 2 cent, there's communication courses in college. I think it would benefit Blizzard to learn this discipline.

Also see my flooded post above.

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