Why do MOBA's purposely fail the player in matchmaking?

General Discussion
08/29/2018 02:55 AMPosted by Zhorax
Looking at your post history pretty much everything you have to say gets downvoted massively.. you're not demotivated easily are you? I envy your optimism!


This has nothing to do with optimism. Everybody that gets offended by the truth will down vote it. I am not here for the likes, this isn't Instagram.
Mighty big words for such a small man. You treating this like instagram is the only reason you get downvoted in the first place!

You're here to troll, to be condescending and disrespectful.. nothing more.

There's nothing constructive to be found in posts like these, and they add NOTHING to this topic or any other for that matter:

08/29/2018 02:27 AMPosted by Creeper
Is that this so called "noob-language" ?
You need a massive player base for successful and competitive matchmaking, in the magnitude of Dota2 or League. There are so many millions of players competing in the ranked ladder of these games, even the skill difference between a 1600 and 2000 is apparent, or a Gold V and a Gold I.

Smite and HotS have very small player bases in comparison. It's not always evident who is Platinum 3 and who is Silver 1 by play style. The ranked ladder is a mess, and high MMR players are used as an anchor to average the MMR of parties instead of waiting longer to put them in a match full of other high MMR players.
08/29/2018 02:27 AMPosted by Creeper
08/28/2018 08:49 PMPosted by XxBloodSkyxX
QM has become terribly predictable and the tragedy that is MM has made it so. Nothing like knowing you are going to lose before the match even starts to take all the fun out of playing . I think they keep QM in such a horrid state to force you to play different modes or maybe it's to keep me from ever spending money on this game again.


Is that this so called "noob-language" ?
if it was you wouldn't have such a hard time understanding it
People should really not talk about something which they have no idea about. Until you encounter forced 50% phenomena, you must take other players word for it.

Furthermore, you all should try and play some 1 vs 1 or similar style game. You will soon notice that all of this nonsense soon disappears when you are personally responsible for everything that happens within the match. This "being able to win the games" is just a myth resulting from weak and uncritical consideration of known information.
08/29/2018 03:11 AMPosted by Zhorax
Mighty big words for such a small man. You treating this like instagram is the only reason you get downvoted in the first place!

You're here to troll, to be condescending and disrespectful.. nothing more.

There's nothing constructive to be found in posts like these, and they add NOTHING to this topic or any other for that matter:


You like to get down to my level and also start insulting?
So what's so wrong about being a little bit disrespectful / destructive towards others who start non-constructive whiny posts?
I think you do the same as me here :)
08/29/2018 03:27 AMPosted by XxBloodSkyxX
if it was you wouldn't have such a hard time understanding it

I don't have to be American to learn their language.
I could deal with a system that gives you better teammates and opponents as you climb but Blizzard doesn't do anything like this.

Yesterday I played a few QM games on a 60% overall win rate account (it's out of beginner queue long ago) I won 20% of my games. These were my teammates:

https://imgur.com/a/FS0UDjG

Better teammates huh? "Reached my skill cap" :D
I can't play a single game without reporting at least 2 guys for non-participating or feeding or a master/GM player with this stats for having a bought account.
Along with using the extreme dead weight to balance our the average MMR, it's hilarious when the game also make me and my friend wait in the lobby for ages just so this can rule can be enforced when we're on a winning streak. It's so common for me and my duo friend to wait 7-10 minutes to get a game in QM due to our 60%ish winrate.

https://www.hotslogs.com/Player/Profile?PlayerID=1989720

Unless we get a 3rd friend to play who has way less win rate %, we're barely getting games even during the peak hours. Throw in a 50%ish win rate guy and our queue went from average of 7-10 minutes to 1-2 minutes.

Because of the small playerbase in SG and AUS combined, we already start memorizing the deadweight name, the type of players with 35-40% winrate, and just take off our carry pants because we know it's a forced loss if they are playing as the damage/support.

Just yesterday, we had an auto-select Cain who keep throwing potion at enemy as if it was an attack spell and constantly run in to melee attack and die. Checked his status while browsing stats and notice he's already in another game. A few hours in, we had to queue for 15 minutes until this guy loses his game, queue for a new game and is popped right into my team to force another loss with an auto-select Valeera.

HotS really is a game that is way more enjoyable when you can quickly identify a forced loss so you don't take that match too seriously.
08/28/2018 11:21 PMPosted by Ephemiel
In LoL, a few years back, me and some friends decided to make a random team in order to play together. The first few placement matches were against similarly unranked teams, the last few started being with actual rank and the last team was a full Challenger team. The game actively kept sending stronger teams against us because it felt it needed to test why we kept winning [although i will admit the queue kept taking longer and longer].

A good matchmaking will try to average everyone to a specific MMR before putting them together. Blizzard's horrid matchmaking seems to does it backwards, choosing the specific MMR first and placing people who end up averaging that number when placed together, even if it means an average of 2K MMR by placing someone with 3K and someone with 1K on the team.


Do you read this, Devs?
08/28/2018 11:28 PMPosted by BlurryShadow
This is why i love ARAM, there is no match making it's purely random.


this is why i have a 65% winrate in all ARAM modes.

#fair
08/28/2018 10:46 PMPosted by Laparo
but the matchmaking using higher MMRs to compensate lower MMRs is not fair match balance. That's a bandaid to a faulty system and is most likely what leads to the stomp issues we see.


MMR isn't an exact science. That's why players are placed into brackets rather then exact MMR matches.

Also, as much as everyone likes to throw around the word, MMR is NOT a measure of skill in that it can describe to you that players ability to perform in any particular way during the game, be that mechanical skill with a hero, strategic knowledge of how to react during a game, or the technical knowledge of the heroes being played. The only meaningful data it can ever express is the ability of a player win games in general.
The sad thing, if MM would be pure, it would be better. No restrictions at all. So people will naturally climb to the top with high winrates after some time. As it is now, all this meddling with MM only made average matches worst.

For example, recently I had Samuro who of course instant locked this hero and then cried about not picking ranged assassin and how it would had solved everything. Especially blaming me for last picking a main tank when our only frontline was a bloody D.Va. When team blamed me for picking Garrosh despite my healer literally being ahead of me and face tanking enemy team and getting blown up. Despite Samuro constantly dying and our main dps not being there. Despite all of them being too stupid to flank KT, Raynor, Johanna, Morales comp. Yea, all of them being clumped up in small corridor ended amazingly well for us. Then they would ignore obvious pings to set up ambush when 1 man down. Would ignore objective and would start moving only when tribute is 10 seconds from being spawned. The quality of people in MM is abysmal. It utterly and completely fails to distribute people across the board and I see master level players being trash and in my MM being teamed up with complete idiots. There is little fun to be had in this game and I'm on breaking point to leave this game for a while.
08/29/2018 06:18 AMPosted by zenasprime
Also, as much as everyone likes to throw around the word, MMR is NOT a measure of skill in that it can describe to you that players ability to perform in any particular way during the game, be that mechanical skill with a hero, strategic knowledge of how to react during a game, or the technical knowledge of the heroes being played. The only meaningful data it can ever express is the ability of a player win games in general.


I'm aware. It would follow the same course as "3 is greater than 2" type of reasoning.

However, due to the nature of your MMR rising it automatically translates into an expectation/generalization of that players skill/knowledge about the game simply because of said individuals ability to impact their games, translating into winrate. As in there's a heavy disparity between a 2k MMR rated player and a 3k MMR rated player.

So with that out of the way it's still not right to use higher MMR to counter a low MMR to create a theoretical "fair" game. That completely nullifies the entire point of you know, actually improving because you'll see the same mindless games regardless.

But this was just a QM example and there's a reason I value HL stats a lot more. Hint: MMR disparity isn't in the thousands.
08/29/2018 07:11 AMPosted by Laparo
I'm aware. It would follow the same course as "3 is greater than 2" type of reasoning.

However, due to the nature of your MMR rising it automatically translates into an expectation/generalization of that players skill/knowledge about the game simply because of said individuals ability to impact their games, translating into winrate. As in there's a heavy disparity between a 2k MMR rated player and a 3k MMR rated player.

So with that out of the way it's still not right to use higher MMR to counter a low MMR to create a theoretical "fair" game. That completely nullifies the entire point of you know, actually improving because you'll see the same mindless games regardless.

But this was just a QM example and there's a reason I value HL stats a lot more. Hint: MMR disparity isn't in the thousands.


Your definition and perception of MMR still assumes that players have some knowledge or skill but that isn't a requirement of this statistically driven means of matching players (the only one we have).

No matchmaking system will ever be able to pair YOU up with a player who fits YOUR definition of what is SKILLFUL play. That's just not what these systems are capable of providing to you as a player looking for teammates.

The ONLY way for you to regularly play on a team of players who fit YOUR bill for SKILLFUL players is to hand picking those players yourself.

There's a reason why players self organize into teams for tournament play and don't rely on some random matching system to place them. What YOU are looking for is this tournament level of commitment and competency as determined by your standards of play. So why are you looking for that in a system (solo queue Hero League) that absolutely cannot provide that for you?
Blizzard is trying to reduce queue times by starting matches faster through allowing a wider range of MMRs to play together, the issue is, of course, if the highest rated player also ends up playing one of the better heroes. This is where the disparity comes in, because, theoretically, the two teams are matched very closely for MMR, however what we find is that one team invariably ends up doing better because the choices made by a few players ends up carrying the game.

I've been on a losing streak for quite a awhile. It didn't end. I went to LoL and I'm winning around 55-60% of my matches. That tells me that something is intrinsically wrong with this MMR system. However, infallible Blizzard will not fix something it doesn't see as being wrong. We can hope, but crap in one hand and hope in the other and see which fills up faster.
08/29/2018 03:17 AMPosted by MetalDtector
You need a massive player base for successful and competitive matchmaking, in the magnitude of Dota2 or League. There are so many millions of players competing in the ranked ladder of these games, even the skill difference between a 1600 and 2000 is apparent, or a Gold V and a Gold I.

Smite and HotS have very small player bases in comparison. It's not always evident who is Platinum 3 and who is Silver 1 by play style. The ranked ladder is a mess, and high MMR players are used as an anchor to average the MMR of parties instead of waiting longer to put them in a match full of other high MMR players.


Want to guess WHY HotS has a small playerbase when we've mentioned this MMR problem since the beta that, according to Blizzard, had over a million players?
08/29/2018 07:23 AMPosted by zenasprime
Your definition and perception of MMR still assumes that players have some knowledge or skill but that isn't a requirement of this statistically driven means of matching players (the only one we have).


I understand what you're saying but you're completely missunderstanding the original point.

I never said that the MMR system is supposed to match players that have identical mentalities, perfect hero pools for comps and so on.

What I'm saying is that if player A has achieved Y MMR that player should be matched together with Y MMR players in order to form a team of players that has achieved that standing. This brings along with it a general idea of how good the player is, not their mentality as required in competitive play.

08/29/2018 07:11 AMPosted by Laparo
As in there's a heavy disparity between a 2k MMR rated player and a 3k MMR rated player.


This quote alone explains my reasoning.

This is also why I said in my first entry that QM will never be balanced and why I value HL for stats purposes. As you can see in a HL match history the players will typically never be greater than 300 MMR away from one another. Well at least in my games anyways. With this we know that Blizzard is cappable to match equal MMR players together.

There's no reason why Blizzard is incappable to provide this for QM and UD (except in the case of premades). QM/UD also have an MMR which is shown on Hotslogs, but frequently in those games there can be more than 1k MMR difference between players which is insane.

So if I haven't already made it abundantly clear from my personal standing - I do not care nor am I affected personally by the MMR dispute. I mostly play HL where I am not affected by MMR disputes where it matters.
What I'm saying is that there's no reason why players who primarily participate in casual modes should be neglected matchmaking vs players within their general skill bracket when we can clearly see the system works in HL.
08/29/2018 03:11 AMPosted by Zhorax
Mighty big words for such a small man.


Making personal remarks and going off topic is pure trolling and against the rules.

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