Why does Li-Ming have such a low winrate?

General Discussion
She sits at 45.4%, what gives?
She has pretty much been that way since they removed calamity minion damage way back when.
On the bright side, she is no longer the worst mage in the game. Thanks for that chromie.
08/31/2018 08:59 AMPosted by ExDe707
She sits at 45.4%, what gives?


This game is all about CC, and she has none. Other mages - Jaina, KTD, KT - all have slows and stuns.

Li-Ming is also very popular. You kinda learn the tricks when you play against her as frequently as we all do.
Speaking as a Li Ming main who now rarely plays her:

Li-Ming is NOT popular - Her pick/ban rate is 25%.
- KT is 59%
- Jaina is 52%
- Guldan is 25%
- Nazeebo is 27%

She's not really popular, just "average" popularity for mages.

Li-Ming has been hit with the nerf bat about 6 or 7 times since launch. We can all agree Ess of Johan was a disaster. However, they continue to nerf her utility almost every 2 months.

What exactly does Ming have going for her? Literally just her trait. And if your team isn't finishing the kills, shes the worst mage in the game. Period.

Li-Ming's damage is on the weak end when compared to other mages.
- Li-Ming has no hard CC outside of Wave of Force which is VERY difficult to combo skill shot damage off of.
-- Li-Ming has incredibly low health: 1,232 HP baseline
-------> Chromie has 1323, KT has 1520, Jaina has 1365, Guldan has 1700, KTZ has 1445

--- She has weak wave clear. Removing minion damage from Calamity was not a needed change. Plenty of mages have far superior wave clear.

---- She is not a good sieging mage, all her abilities do 50% damage to structures... a change that was made on her original nerf and made sense... however, 5 nerfs later... meh

----- For whatever reason, her damage scaling on all abilities (other than Ultimates) is 3%.... Like every other hero in the game has 4% scaling outside of KTZ and Chromie and that's just because KTZ has his trait quest and Chromie had weird scaling due to her earlier talent access.

------ Li-Ming is not good in "beefy" METAs, and North American HL runs a LOT of Tank + Bruiser or straight up double main tank. They soak up all her damage at close range and deny her the distance damage bonus from her orb.

She doesn't need much... however, she has been at 45-47% win rate for over 6 months now... I have been tracking. A simple filter of the last 12 weeks alone has her as the 4th worst hero over the last 3 months. And that's only beating Tass (who is BRUTALLY bad), Chromie (Who got beaten to death with a lead pipe by Blizzard) and Hanzo (Who also has been nerfed 20 times over).

I think they either need to put minion damage back on her Calamity to give her a fighting chance at being reliable alone in a lane or they need to make her scaling 4% instead of 3%. She's in a bad spot and has been for the better part of a year now.
I suppose it's because of those dumb russian twin blade mains who pick her when they are bored of varian. There's simply a lot more to her than most people think. She's sort of an artillery piece, she stays back and spams q and w, but her low hp makes her vulnerable to certain genjis and tracers and such. If what you need is someone to bombard a whole area with skills then she's your choice, but keep in mind a large drawback is the fact that minions and such can block her skills.

The thing is most people dont even know how to play her, they want a mage who spams abilities left and right and gets kills but dont adapt to the tradeoff in health and lack of survivability if targeted by a burst hero. This is part of why people die a lot and lose a lot with her, the other part being the broken qm matchmaker that makes 1 team disproportionately powerful vs the other.

Simply put, mages in qm are dead when they press ready.
Just compare Li Ming with Jaina, it is not hard to understand why Ming's win rate is so low.
Wave clear: Jaina can double soak, Ming has way more trouble
Camp: Jaina can do camp faster and can solo hard camp, Ming cannot
Siege: Jaina is better, Ming does half damage
Burst: Jaina can do way more burst especially late game due to 3% scaling of Ming
AOE: Jain's skills have way better AOE impact than Ming
CC: Jain can perma slow and has two roots, Ming can only push away
Mana: Jain has little mana problem, Ming often needs to port back
Reset: Ming seems better, but Jain has ice lance and icy veins which are like reset
Reliable damage: Jaina's skills are easy to land, Ming's skill shots are really slow
Range: Ming is better, but both kill at short range. Jaina could also talent range
Defense: Jaina has ice block by quest and ice blink, Ming has a short cd blink
Health: Jaina has more health
AA: Jaina is better unless Ming sacrifices her best talents to do the AA build

Overall, Jaina is better than Ming in most aspects except that Ming can play safer early game with long range poke and blink. However, both mages need to kill at mid to short range, so Ming's advantage is gone.
08/31/2018 09:10 AMPosted by sancho
This game is all about CC, and she has none. Other mages - Jaina, KTD, KT - all have slows and stuns.
She has one of the best knockback moves in the game... Not only will it interrupt all immobile channels, it will also completely mess up formations and escapes.

The main problem with Li Ming is that she has limited potential to damage specific targets. Where as Kael and Jaina have moves that damage areas or specific targets, Li Ming only really has skill shots which damage the first target hit. A merc wave completely denies Li Ming the ability to damage from the front where as even Chromie still can.

This means that Li Ming must go off lane to flank the enemy team to hit the priority back line targets. In a hyper mobile meta this is suicide as someone like Genji will dive her to death. Hence low win rate.

Wave of Force works wonders to stop escape and disrupt, but its damage is meh. Disintigrate solves her problem with piercing damage but locks her down with a stationary channel introducing new problems such as becomming an easy target for piercing assassins.

That said she should not be underestimated. I still rate her as one of the best damage sources for single lane Brawl maps, near the likes of Thrall and Guldan.
08/31/2018 10:05 AMPosted by DrSuperGood
08/31/2018 09:10 AMPosted by sancho
This game is all about CC, and she has none. Other mages - Jaina, KTD, KT - all have slows and stuns.
She has one of the best knockback moves in the game... Not only will it interrupt all immobile channels, it will also completely mess up formations and escapes.

The main problem with Li Ming is that she has limited potential to damage specific targets. Where as Kael and Jaina have moves that damage areas or specific targets, Li Ming only really has skill shots which damage the first target hit. A merc wave completely denies Li Ming the ability to damage from the front where as even Chromie still can.

This means that Li Ming must go off lane to flank the enemy team to hit the priority back line targets. In a hyper mobile meta this is suicide as someone like Genji will dive her to death. Hence low win rate.

Wave of Force works wonders to stop escape and disrupt, but its damage is meh. Disintigrate solves her problem with piercing damage but locks her down with a stationary channel introducing new problems such as becomming an easy target for piercing assassins.

That said she should not be underestimated. I still rate her as one of the best damage sources for single lane Brawl maps, near the likes of Thrall and Guldan.


Wave of Force is good for interruptions... yes.

However, the point about CC was more about CC that is useful for her own damage output.

Jaina slows enemy heroes.... Thus allowing her to chase them down... and her slow makes them take bonus damage.

KT can stun someone for multiple seconds, enough time to land his Flamestrike 100% assuming the stun hits.

KTZ can root 2 people together, he can chain people to an ice block, he can root multiple heroes... all of while allow him to personally land more damage

Chromie has Loop and Time Traps to help her ensure her skill shots land

Nazeebo has wall of zombies that can ensure his skill shots land

Guldan has one of the best Ultimates in the game, and unlike WoF, it slowly forces heroes in a controllable direction allowing him to reliably hit an entire E on a helpless hero

WoF is basically just for stopping someone from using an ability - which all of the above talents do as well... however, WoF doesn't allow Ming reliable follow up. It takes massive amounts of skill and some luck to hit someone in EXACTLY the right angle to push them into the orb + missiles that you needed to shoot BEFORE the ultimate is used.

Have you ever seen a pro player lose his mind after killing someone off of a Guldan Horrify? Probably not.

I watched a Twitch clip of the best player in Europe losing his mind off of someone hitting a WoF missile combo on him because it's so impossible to do.
The answer is simple. She lacks waveclear and is not easy to play, given the fact that a single minion can block your complete damage.
I'm no expert but my observation is that she is REALLY popular. I see her picked a ton at my mediocre level of play.

1. Because of her design almost all of her damage comes from skill shots so you see a huge variance in the quality of players using her.

2. So you get a LARGE amount of players playing her and when they play bad they tank her numbers.

3. The last factor I would say is the high level of long range and high mobility and some times BOTH Assassins that have been added to the game since she came out kinda BOX her out. Many more heroes can now safely dive her or poke her from an equal distance while evading her skill shots. Which has the two fold effect of making her less effective WHEN she is picked and giving her more assassins to compete with in terms of winrate.
I have some suggestions for fixing her.

The two I'm seeing a lot of people suggesting are giving Calamity back it's PvE damage and/or increasing her scaling up to 4%.

Barring that, I have two other ideas, both for her Arcane Orb.

A) Arcane Orb no longer explodes on contact with any enemy, but is instead manually detonated to deal damage to every enemy within its radius. This gives her much more reliable damage and waveclear and prevents on of her main sources of damage from being made useless by any minion, merc, monster, or summon who happens to be between her and the intended target(s).

B) Decrease its collision radius slightly, but also increase the damage AoE radius as well to give her more splash range. Right now, she only deals damage to the enemies right around the outside edge of Arcane Orb, heavily limiting its penetration distance and therefore actual effective AoE. It's AoE is effectively a thin ring, and the width of that ring should be increased.

Just my 2 cents.
Her winrate is probably tanked by players not building her properly for a given match-up, such as someone going orb/laser build w/ Glass Cannon vs divers like Genji. Calamity/E talents are much more useful vs Tracer/Genji on the other hand.
Her winrate is low because of the same reason as hanzo; people suck, straight up.
People are just bad with her and do not know her best build. Everyone tries her E or Q build which are noob traps for her. Furthermore, she needs some adjustment in talents. Astral Presence need to go up to 30%. Her free blinks need to go and give her something more useful or be placed somewhere else. Her AA build needs a good buff. She needs to get purpose for Fireflies. Diamond Skin needs to be moved to defensive or utility talent tier, maybe along with Force Armor and Aether Walker in its own tree. Archon needs to get buffed. Temporal Flux is also weakish storm talent.

Here Blizzard. I just reworked her into far more competitive and better designed state. Don't thank me.
While I agree players' skill is one factor that contributes to Ming's low win rate, Ming is not exactly the same like Hanzo, who used to have really high win rate in pro plays, but low win rate in HL. Ming's win rate is about the same in pro and HL. In the recent three patches: Ming's competitive win rate is 45% https://masterleague.net/hero/li-ming/?p=51&p=50&p=49
Her overall HL win rate is 45%
The numbers are quite consistent. That being said, she is still competitively viable as indicated by her moderate popularity in pro play and master HL.

08/31/2018 10:52 AMPosted by Maximus

A) Arcane Orb no longer explodes on contact with any enemy, but is instead manually detonated to deal damage to every enemy within its radius.

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I know this idea has been discussed before, and some people thought it is op. But I like it better than giving calamity PVE damage because calamity is already her most picked level 7 talent. If it also does wave clear, then there are even less reason to pick other level 7 talents. You could also consider let the orb explodes only on contact with hero, and can be detonated if not.
She can't push for !@#$ even with all her AoE and the entire point of the game is pushing the core.
Li Ming is kind of like Genji and highly variable as well.

She's a great finisher because of resets, but otherwise kind of middles around in team fights just hoping for good orb hits.

In the same way that Genji is often garbage in HL because he doesn't make any plays by himself

Her wave clear is trash
one big reason is because you're filtering for ALL leagues instead of looking at master league.

However when filtering for Masters, she's still sitting around 48% (the bare minimum of where the devs would say someone is balanced) which is on the lower end of balanced. The big reasoning would be the increase in mobility of top tier heroes as well as the CC often in play. Ming's HP is garbage and if she is stopped from teleporting, she dies near instantly. like with current Hanzo and Current Genji, she requires a LOT of effort to do well and if caught out, can die very quickly.

This is in stark contrast to someone like Jaina:

jaina has a level 1 that can permanently increase her mana regen AND damage bonus on chilled targets.

can hit 2 people with frostbolt AND lower the CD when hitting those targets.

can root people in place with a cone of cold talent.
can root an entire team with her ult or get an ult that does great damage and can lead to easy kills.
can get icyveins, turning her into arguably the highest DPS hero in the game.
gets Ice Block baseline.
08/31/2018 10:52 AMPosted by Maximus
A) Arcane Orb no longer explodes on contact with any enemy, but is instead manually detonated to deal damage to every enemy within its radius. This gives her much more reliable damage and waveclear and prevents on of her main sources of damage from being made useless by any minion, merc, monster, or summon who happens to be between her and the intended target(s).

That wouldn't feel like D3 wizard though. A better way might be to make Arcane Orb pass through enemies while still dealing damage, but explode when it hits an enemy hero. In D3 there used to be a rune that made the orb pierce just like that, but without the explosion, somewhat close. Detonating an orb manually would be out of place in my opinion. Still I'm really used to how Arcane Orb works right now, so changing the mechanics completely could be too much. Maybe they should just unnerf her PVE damage.

Or maybe Calamity could be made baseline as it's such an integral part of Ming. Then there could be a talent that lets Teleport damage all targets instead of only heroes.

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