New Match Making Rules = You Lost

General Discussion
For a long time, the Community was grappled with this whole odd philosophy that Blizzard tries to pull you into a 50% win/loss statistics that would never work in real world scenerios.

Recently, I'm sure everyone has started seeing the advent of level 50-80s showing up in games. Many of these tend to be smurfs but the majority of these are obviously new players.

The New Player Protection Model is having a massive impact on the quality of games for those of us who have a player level well into the thousands.

These players rarely understand mechanics, builds, or objectives as key elements of the game; but they further don't understand the nuances of engagement, when team fight, when to push, when to pull back.

It's turning the majority of games where you find one of these new players on your team as dead weight and a forced loss. Two of these people on your team and it is a loss.

Blizzard really needs to structure the system so that like experience players are grouped together.

We can objectively dercern this is a new rule and not simply the game engine flipping loosening rules after too long in queue due exclusively to how fast these games tend to form. I've regularly observed these games forming well before the 180 second and 300 second marks.

MOBA and/or Brawlers like this game are primarily knowledge based games. Understanding of the maps takes you pretty far, but in order to succeed in this game you need to have ample knowledge of your allies and opponents skill sets in your advanced knowledge set.

We, the players, generally need to make Blizzard understand that putting together games with three 1000+ players, an 800+ and then two sub 100s doesn't make good games unless we're VERY LUCKY that those two sub 100s are smurfs.
Game knowledge is definitely a cornerstone of playing the game. Translating that into an accurate MMR system is the problem. We've all seen the 1000+ level accounts that play just like a fresh one. Some players do not aim to improve.

Also, I don't think anyone that has spent a few years in this game developing their knowledge base and skill enjoys the new player buddy system, so that should definitely go.

Perhaps outside of HL and TL we could have trial matches that follow stricter MMR tolerance (as in all the players in a match are within 200 points of the mean) but the post-game MMR adjustment is much larger for gain or loss. Make trial matches available for something like 2 days at every 2 weeks so it doesn't divide the player base too much.
There was a talk that Blizzard admitted that their MM tended to pair veterans with new players, like a mentor system. But, really, do you think anyone would listen to anyone in this game? The more you say the faster the silence/ban you get. Also, this means they intentionally tamper with MM algorithm.
Also, the mismatch of comps in QM plays a big factor. If you want a fair game, we should have matching hero roles/types in game.

A good example:
Main Tank - Main Tank
Assassin - Assassin
Assassin - Assassin
Assassin - Assassin
Solo Healer - Solo Healer

A bad example (what we can get currently):
Main Tank - Off Tank
Assassin - Off Tank
Assassin - Specialist
Assassin - Specialist
Specialist - Specialist
09/10/2018 09:21 AMPosted by Sarf
There was a talk that Blizzard admitted that their MM tended to pair veterans with new players, like a mentor system. But, really, do you think anyone would listen to anyone in this game?
Why argue with someone who is a higher rank than you? Especially when they didn't say anything malicious. I don't understand that, and it blows my mind when bronze/silver/gold/plat argue with a diamond/masters/GM reasoning. Then again I'm reminded why these players are where they're in the first place.
In rank/unrank, I often look at their profiles for games played and current rank. A word from a higher rank could be more valuable than those lower me.
09/10/2018 09:42 AMPosted by Onslaught
09/10/2018 09:21 AMPosted by Sarf
There was a talk that Blizzard admitted that their MM tended to pair veterans with new players, like a mentor system. But, really, do you think anyone would listen to anyone in this game?
Why argue with someone who is a higher rank than you? Especially when they didn't say anything malicious. I don't understand that, and it blows my mind when bronze/silver/gold/plat argue with a diamond/masters/GM reasoning. Then again I'm reminded why these players are where they're in the first place.
In rank/unrank, I often look at their profiles for games played and current rank. A word from a higher rank could be more valuable than those lower me.

Yes, this would be the apparent thing to do, listen to the experienced players... but this area is also not that simple. Aside from the wide array of tactics that can be employed in a match that varies with map and heroes participating, new players learn to win matches the beginner way. They start off against beginners and learn to win that way, but then leave new player protection and are expected to know the broader sense of macro and micro. That's why you see people do boss during curse or lane while a punisher is up. Specialists have a bigger impact soloing at lower skill levels but then in higher rated games they get ganked, lose their xp soak, and blame the rest of the team for being bad.

Speaking of which, is MMR and HL rank all that reliable or accurate? Anecdotally, there are a lot of outliers who solo lane most of a match in higher ranks and are terrible at team fights, yet there they are, in master, diamond, plat... These folks aren't adjusted properly.
09/10/2018 09:29 AMPosted by Copypastable
Also, the mismatch of comps in QM plays a big factor. If you want a fair game, we should have matching hero roles/types in game.

A good example:
Main Tank - Main Tank
Assassin - Assassin
Assassin - Assassin
Assassin - Assassin
Solo Healer - Solo Healer

A bad example (what we can get currently):
Main Tank - Off Tank
Assassin - Off Tank
Assassin - Specialist
Assassin - Specialist
Specialist - Specialist

Here's a funny shower thought: against equal MMR teams, game knowledge becomes more valuable to winning a match because of odd comps. The team that adapts the best with talents or macro moves is usually the match winner, premades aside.
09/10/2018 10:14 AMPosted by Uziel
09/10/2018 09:29 AMPosted by Copypastable
Also, the mismatch of comps in QM plays a big factor. If you want a fair game, we should have matching hero roles/types in game.

A good example:
Main Tank - Main Tank
Assassin - Assassin
Assassin - Assassin
Assassin - Assassin
Solo Healer - Solo Healer

A bad example (what we can get currently):
Main Tank - Off Tank
Assassin - Off Tank
Assassin - Specialist
Assassin - Specialist
Specialist - Specialist

Here's a funny shower thought: against equal MMR teams, game knowledge becomes more valuable to winning a match because of odd comps. The team that adapts the best with talents or macro moves is usually the match winner, premades aside.


No. At equal MMRs, skill is even out, so other factors come into play. What you say happens when one team has a huge MMR disadvantage and also a perfect comp, but loses against a team with suboptimal comp but skilled enough to exploit their offmeta advantages.
09/10/2018 10:35 AMPosted by Moonshadow
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Here's a funny shower thought: against equal MMR teams, game knowledge becomes more valuable to winning a match because of odd comps. The team that adapts the best with talents or macro moves is usually the match winner, premades aside.


No. At equal MMRs, skill is even out, so other factors come into play. What you say happens when one team has a huge MMR disadvantage and also a perfect comp, but loses against a team with suboptimal comp but skilled enough to exploit their offmeta advantages.


When everything is about equal, for me, it just comes down to which team has the comp that can exploit the map more. You get 0 specialists vs 2 specialists on warhead junction. Unless those specialists are literally potatoes, you will lose simply due to the size of the map. On the other hand, if you have a very objective centered map, like battlefield of eternity, and your team has far more objective damage, it's gg unless your team are completely incapable.

On equal skill teams, it ONLY comes down to comp and map.
09/10/2018 09:29 AMPosted by Copypastable
Also, the mismatch of comps in QM plays a big factor. If you want a fair game, we should have matching hero roles/types in game.

A good example:
Main Tank - Main Tank
Assassin - Assassin
Assassin - Assassin
Assassin - Assassin
Solo Healer - Solo Healer

A bad example (what we can get currently):
Main Tank - Off Tank
Assassin - Off Tank
Assassin - Specialist
Assassin - Specialist
Specialist - Specialist


So any offtank heroes or specialists are not allowed to queue for QM in your version?
Also, the mismatch of comps in QM plays a big factor. If you want a fair game, we should have matching hero roles/types in game.

A good example:
Main Tank - Main Tank
Assassin - Assassin
Assassin - Assassin
Assassin - Assassin
Solo Healer - Solo Healer

A bad example (what we can get currently):
Main Tank - Off Tank
Assassin - Off Tank
Assassin - Specialist
Assassin - Specialist
Specialist - Specialist


This doesn't make sense because;
1) Heroes are not balanced around their Labels. There are assassins in the game that are weak vs most other assassins but strong vs warriors for example.

2) The labels are too general and sometimes quite off. Every hero in this game is unique! So matching heroes from the same roles has nothing to do with balance.

The need of matching roles seems like an excuse from bad players. Its like nobody wants to criticize their own plays, blaming hero compositions seems much more comfortable because it frees every player from their responsibility and puts it on Blizzard. I like QM because i am up for the challenge no matter how odd the compositions are, that's like the point of QM for me. I also play draft modes when i want to have more balanced matches. It's good to have both options..
Last game I was matched alongside a Tychus player.

He picked every AA talent, and drill.

He complained about the team having no heals, when I was doubling the enemy Rhegar in heals. This was after he died basically instantly from Genji.

You see, he was standing still and sending 6 kunai per second at the ally team. Enemy Genji figured out very quickly that the Tychus had no idea how deflect worked. He stood there and got 6 second deflect cooldowns from Tychus + drill.

I tried my best, but you can't heal through that. We got the whole "NOOBZZ" from the Tychus, just to add a little laugh to the end.
09/12/2018 03:40 AMPosted by Raoul9753
09/10/2018 09:29 AMPosted by Copypastable
Also, the mismatch of comps in QM plays a big factor. If you want a fair game, we should have matching hero roles/types in game.

A good example:
Main Tank - Main Tank
Assassin - Assassin
Assassin - Assassin
Assassin - Assassin
Solo Healer - Solo Healer

A bad example (what we can get currently):
Main Tank - Off Tank
Assassin - Off Tank
Assassin - Specialist
Assassin - Specialist
Specialist - Specialist


So any offtank heroes or specialists are not allowed to queue for QM in your version?
It was an example. If there is an off-tank on one team, match it with another on an enemy team.

They can take things a step further by matching as if good players would counter each other in draft, but we know that's not gonna happen if they can't even nail this basic down.
09/10/2018 09:21 AMPosted by Sarf
There was a talk that Blizzard admitted that their MM tended to pair veterans with new players, like a mentor system. But, really, do you think anyone would listen to anyone in this game? The more you say the faster the silence/ban you get. Also, this means they intentionally tamper with MM algorithm.


Yeah and they don't understand why people in this game are so toxic. After 6000 games or so, personally, I really enjoy having to say stuff like "soak", 'push with boss" and "come to objective" and facing the threat of being silenced for it.
09/10/2018 09:21 AMPosted by Sarf
There was a talk that Blizzard admitted that their MM tended to pair veterans with new players, like a mentor system.


My issue with this is that I never get to be the one who gets to be paired with players who are higher than myself. I never get to be the junior on the team. I reviewed my last 100 games and 2 times, I was the 4th lowest. Never was I the lowest. In almost all the games I am the highest or 2nd highest.

When do I get a chance to play up?
blizzard sucks at matchmaking...

i quit overwatch because of trash matchmaking... and it started to go downwards in HotS too...

think it's time to just uninstall everything from blizzard because the quality is realy lacking atm...
Forums, queue times are too long REEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

Blizzard reduces queue times at the sacrifice of MM quality.

Forum, queue times are too short, we are getting bad games REEEEEEEEEEEEEEE.

Blizzard But you just, F. Blizzard then improves match quality at the sacrifice of queue time.

Forum, queue times are too long REEEEEEEEEEEEEEE.

Blizzard but you just.... F. Shortens queue times again.

Repeat ad nauseum.
09/10/2018 09:29 AMPosted by Copypastable
Also, the mismatch of comps in QM plays a big factor. If you want a fair game, we should have matching hero roles/types in game.

A good example:
Main Tank - Main Tank
Assassin - Assassin
Assassin - Assassin
Assassin - Assassin
Solo Healer - Solo Healer

A bad example (what we can get currently):
Main Tank - Off Tank
Assassin - Off Tank
Assassin - Specialist
Assassin - Specialist
Specialist - Specialist


First there is no difference between specialists and assassins anymore unless said specialist is support oriented or TLV.

Second QM is exactly the problem. New players never learning how to draft. The default mode should be unranked draft with QM being an unlockable mode after you get to a certain level. A new player will learn far more in 5 draft games then he ever will in 50 QM games.
09/12/2018 08:38 AMPosted by Werbs713
Forums, queue times are too long REEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

Blizzard reduces queue times at the sacrifice of MM quality.

Forum, queue times are too short, we are getting bad games REEEEEEEEEEEEEEE.

Blizzard But you just, F. Blizzard then improves match quality at the sacrifice of queue time.

Forum, queue times are too long REEEEEEEEEEEEEEE.

Blizzard but you just.... F. Shortens queue times again.

Repeat ad nauseum.
I wouldn't mind longer queue times...

I wouldn't mind losing...

As long as the game feels like the win is earned and not given...

But the opposite happens the majority of the time.
09/12/2018 08:42 AMPosted by Werbs713
09/10/2018 09:29 AMPosted by Copypastable
Also, the mismatch of comps in QM plays a big factor. If you want a fair game, we should have matching hero roles/types in game.

A good example:
Main Tank - Main Tank
Assassin - Assassin
Assassin - Assassin
Assassin - Assassin
Solo Healer - Solo Healer

A bad example (what we can get currently):
Main Tank - Off Tank
Assassin - Off Tank
Assassin - Specialist
Assassin - Specialist
Specialist - Specialist


First there is no difference between specialists and assassins anymore unless said specialist is support oriented or TLV.

Second QM is exactly the problem. New players never learning how to draft. The default mode should be unranked draft with QM being an unlockable mode after you get to a certain level. A new player will learn far more in 5 draft games then he ever will in 50 QM games.
Sylvanas' trait.

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