Garden of Terror AWFUL changes

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Highly Rated
So, instead of having a unique map with cool effects and the strategic element of choosing where and when to fight for seeds AND when and where to attack with a Terror, we get a carbon copy of AP and CH which is decided in 5v5 mosh pits over objectives every couple minutes?

TERRIBLE decision.

This completely guts variety in the map pool. Some maps like Warhead and Cursed Hollow are very macro/PvE-centric spreading players out over a large area. Others are very PvP centric where action tends to occur in 1 specific area at a time - Volskaya, Alterac Pass. Changing Garden of Terror to be very team-fight-centric instead of the good balance we have now (medium sized map, 2 objective spawn) completely DESTROYS what makes the map great right now.

Not to mention, the video claims that players were "frustrated" by the current design but fails to explain what was frustrating. Again, this completely removes variety between maps and it may as well just be a reskinned Alterac Pass.

DO NOT go through with this change, Blizzard. I will be leaving every game I am forced to play on this trash and that's if I don't outright uninstall because I am quite happy with the current version of GoT and would love to know why it deserves to be removed instead of tweaked.

Garbage.
When you say "reskinned Alterac" is the precise moment I know you're just regurgitating opinions from reddit and I immediately toss the rest of your copypasta out the window.

If anything it's plant themed Cursed Hollow / Tomb of the Spider Queen hybrid.

It does have 3 lanes... are you sure it's not a Sky Temple reskin!?!?
The reason is competetive scene. Garden of Terrors isnt in HGC nor in HL rotation.

I am not 100% sure why but I think the main problem is that 2 objectives at the same time lead to a very unbalanced map for some high end meta reasons. Or at least in pro play. Maybe its the data of the map that suggests sth.

Well I just dont get why we couldnt have gotten a "garden of nightmares" for HL as a new map and kept Garden of Terror for unranked. that would totally not have been an issue and it would be pretty much no more work for blizzard.

That's what I dont like about the change. A new map that is balanced on the other hand I can welcome to HL.
Highly Rated
09/13/2018 12:49 PMPosted by Ainz
The reason is competetive scene. Garden of Terrors isnt in HGC nor in HL rotation.

I am not 100% sure why but I think the main problem is that 2 objectives at the same time lead to a very unbalanced map for some high end meta reasons. Or at least in pro play. Maybe its the data of the map that suggests sth.


Great. Esports ruins the game for the rest of us again.

What a !@#$ing disaster. Blizzard needs to pull their heads out of their asses and realize that literally dozens of other people play this game.
Highly Rated
terrible is a kind word to describe what they have done to garden of terror....

pls dont let these changes get to the official server.
A shame, but when you see the numbers of players who can't/ don't use the terror...i fear for dragon shire btw.
09/13/2018 12:59 PMPosted by MacWeak
A shame, but when you see the numbers of players who can't/ don't use the terror...i fear for dragon shire btw.


Don't worry. Dragon Shire is fine.
The reason is simple it is in HL rotation and in pro play which GoT isnt.
Also with Volskaya Foundry they implemented another hero control sth objective so they arent against that at all. GoT's rework really only has statistical reasons.

Again: they shoulda made a 2nd version instead of removing the old 1.
09/13/2018 12:59 PMPosted by MacWeak
A shame, but when you see the numbers of players who can't/ don't use the terror...i fear for dragon shire btw.


They better not touch Dragon Shire because that's another map that rewards good map awareness, lane presence, rotating properly and winning 1-on-1's. With all these new maps that emphasize 5v5s, it becomes "whose burst damage faceroll is better than the others?" where battles are decided in 2 seconds of someone who got out of position and got deleted rather than an actual strategic engagement.

It flies in the face of the attempts last year to make laning more engaging meanwhile they've also been forcing everyone into this "brawler" mentality. Team fights are nice and all, but they should be just one component of the game, not the only part of it.
In one point I agree with you; the 1st impression of this rework seems like a lazy done reuse of allready available map mechanics that replace a very unique map mechanic - that's rather sad.

But on the other hand, I feel like the maps can definitely only become better through those chages. In contrast to your liking of the map I always felt really bored having to play Garden of Terrors. Half of the time the games were just a "we get the upper seeds, you get the lower seeds and afterwards we have a terror duel" ... teamfigts weren't projectable and the whole team was scatterd over the map ... or the seed picking coud be comletely ignored. There was no real ... game plan like for other maps. With the rework a team will be able to come up with strategies like on other maps which will give the games more structure.
09/13/2018 12:44 PMPosted by Wraithdagger
Not to mention, the video claims that players were "frustrated" by the current design but fails to explain what was frustrating.


They said that really? What players told them that, people who post on Reddit? There has been very little discussion regarding this map on the offical forums, what little of it was more positive than negative and I don't recall anyone saying they were "frustrated" by the design of the map.

09/13/2018 12:44 PMPosted by Wraithdagger
This completely guts variety in the map pool. Some maps like Warhead and Cursed Hollow are very macro/PvE-centric spreading players out over a large area. Others are very PvP centric where action tends to occur in 1 specific area at a time - Volskaya, Alterac Pass. Changing Garden of Terror to be very team-fight-centric instead of the good balance we have now (medium sized map, 2 objective spawn) completely DESTROYS what makes the map great right now.


It does seem Blizzard wants to lessen the strength of PVE games and keep this more of a brawler. Most of the players I'm matched with don't understand soak, map and lane control, heck, it's often almost impossible to pull them out of mid lane. Maybe Blizzards knows best the section of the player-base who wants this to be the focus of HOTS.

I'm not one of them, I like the variety in maps and the different strategies that come with them, I don't want to play a simplified five man brawler.
Don't have a problem with the new seed mechanic (though it would've been nice if the day/night thing as kept), but being unable to pilot the terror is a bit of a bummer, tbh.
Can't believe I'm saying this, for once I agree with cry babies on the forums (you know who you are), I dislike this a lot. It removes the unique aspect of the map (and the fun of being the Garden Terror) by taking two mechanics from two existing battlegrounds and call it an improvement.

Who wanted these changes, exactly? I troll these forums daily and of all the maps and other things moaned and complained about Garden of Terror or it's map mechanics aren't one of them. Hell the update video has more dislikes then likes, so that should tell you a lot.

I mean really, nothing was wrong with the old version, period. Also RIP Thriller Dancing as the Garden Terror.
09/13/2018 02:11 PMPosted by Lithary
Don't have a problem with the new seed mechanic (though it would've been nice if the day/night thing as kept), but being unable to pilot the terror is a bit of a bummer, tbh.
Yeah, that's my problem with it. I absolutely loved controlling the Terror, it required map awareness and priority calls. Now it's just going to be another Alterac Pass/TotSQ.

I swear to god I've nearly had it with this game. If this goes live, that'll be it for me. They've ruined so many of my favorite heroes, and now they're ruining one of my favorite maps. I still play QM occasionally on weeks when the Brawl isn't ARAM, but once this goes through it'll be ARAM exclusively for me.
I hadn't read Reddit yet but if every platform discusses this as a bad change that means it's a bad change.

We are completely losing one unique mechanic, being replaced by one very close to two already implemented, instead of balancing one we have already.
MY GOD, nothing but complaints everytime Blizz does something. Give the map some play before you bash it.

Rework hero? WTF BLIZZ
Rework map? WTF BLIZZ

Just can't please anyone it seems. I guess thats what these forums are, are just for people to complain.

The map was absolute trash to begin with and changes where needed.
I just dont understand why its changed to become a lot like alterac pass. same kind of reward/obj.
09/13/2018 12:44 PMPosted by Wraithdagger

Not to mention, the video claims that players were "frustrated" by the current design but fails to explain what was frustrating.


I am going to start by saying that I have not seen the changes or video yet, so I don't know what changes they made.

All I can tell you is that I hate garden of terror, not as much as old hanamura - but pretty close and in the polls I've seen, garden of terror is one of the most disliked maps in the game.

Games on Garden of Terror take forever, far longer than other maps. The rework they did originally helped a bit, but games still take forever.

I hate the objective, unlike other maps, players don't have to fight to get seeds for a terror and often both teams end up having one quite often.

This I think is the main culprit for longer games, teams that are losing can turtle hard by waiting until the last second to grab their terror to defend and then try to take a fight when the enemy team loses their terror and they still have theirs.

It's really annoying and frustrating, especially because like I said, teams don't actually have to fight over the objective in order to get it.

That's my opinion on the current GoT, like I said though, I don't know what changes they made so maybe it's worse or maybe it's better - but honestly it's hard for me to imagine that map being worse than it already is/was.
Terrible changes, just terrible.
I hated this map and in particular the terror, both from a control and counter perspective. the right person had to get into the Terror and now you are down something, a tank or bruiser, do you now team fight with it because its strong or split push? and everyone has a different idea of how best to use it and people get touchy about it.

From a counter perspective the polymorph made team fighting into the plant a nightmare and directly counters anyone without a teleport or dash or someone who needs to stand still for a second like Chen or anyone with a channel. The sapling was fine except for the fact you had to focus it first so the plant stayed alive even longer, Not to mention the sprint basically allowing you to kite all day. and the fact that it hit like a truck.

They might have been able to adjust it so that the poly doesn't slow you down or lower the sapling health. they would have to remove or change the sprint because playing chase every 15 seconds is kinda boring.

Not to mention I didn't sign up to play the plant I wanted to play my hero. neither of the other vehicles last as long because you cant just sprint away.

I agree that homogenization of maps is a concern and honestly I think would have preferred to have one big plant and be able to choose which lane it goes down. or have it go down the strongest lane (the one with the most combined health in buildings) but as long as it gets rid of poly/sprint I am happy. The terror as a whole is a troll mechanic and it was annoying.

The seed change is whatever, they have been pushing team fighting much more heavily of late and this objective will do that. Win the team fight and you get a pve advantage. Part of that is not wanting people to just push to win and avoid the enemy/objective. and to be honest given that 90% of teams I play with can't physically stop themselves from starting a team fight even when they are 2-4 levels behind. and everyone seems to just want to team fight it might not be a bad thing. Its part of the reason so many people hate blackhearts bay, you can just pay to win and its bothers people.
09/13/2018 02:57 PMPosted by FoxBlade
This I think is the main culprit for longer games, teams that are losing can turtle hard by waiting until the last second to grab their terror to defend and then try to take a fight when the enemy team loses their terror and they still have theirs.

Strategy is a valid way to use the terror. Thats why its a good mechanic. Its very simple: if they use the terror for defense, they cant use it for offense. And if they are using it againt your terror, your terror can still deal damage to their buildings. Its not like the disabling plant has to be alive for that.

Progress can sometimes be slow, but thats the art of turtling. Turtling is a good system to make late game heroes gain more advantages. Instead of having an average round that ends at level 16 vs 14, maps should sometimes be made in such way that they can easily end up level 23 vs 22.

Maps should be unique, and when such maps works fine, its good.

Also, the new terror map is going to be horrible to me as to me alterac is one of the least interesting maps to play. But im not going to say that the map needs a rework because it works as it does. There are no major problems on the map, its only a problem when you dont like a mechanic, but thats a personal oppinion.
09/13/2018 02:57 PMPosted by FoxBlade
That's my opinion on the current GoT, like I said though, I don't know what changes they made so maybe it's worse or maybe it's better - but honestly it's hard for me to imagine that map being worse than it already is/was.

Instead of having some tactical decision making to attack certain areas, they just pull players to 1 location. Previously there were 2 which was still fine. There are plenty of maps where players are forced to spread out, and many times this is a better mechanic since it pulls people out of the constant 5v5 brawl.

And with that, they removed a unique feature: vehicle vs vehicle combat. Sure, it looks dumb, might not be effective, and waste a lot of time. That it can be done is a good thing! You can decide to go for the 5v5 brawl in that case, or you just push a diffirent lane. Free choise wether you want to fight, or go tactical.

And then the spawning on all lanes mechanic... why? Sure, i can live with an AI controlling the terror (because although the terror is fun, i do understand that its anoying to some that people are wasting its valuable time), but at least they could have made it like the punisher or immortal where it simply just takes a random lane and pushes that one.

The 'push all lane' effects that some maps give are often not worth it. They are heavily pushing towards a snowball effect, and just feel like a cheap effect. 1 map featuring this effect is fine, 2 is borderline, 3 is overkill.

Not everyone plays a game the same way, if we did we could remove 30 heroes and no one would notice since all people play would be the meta. That surely would be a boring game then.

Maps offer variety, and thats important!

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