Mana, as a resource, is overused IMHO

General Discussion
I feel like Blizzard often overuses Mana as a resource. Part of what makes new heroes interesting and fun to learn is how their resources apply to their play style.

Rage, in WoW, was, IMHO, one of the best fantasy game design elements that ever game out. Not only did it introduce us to the concept that Mana isn't always the logic resource for fantasy characters, but it also introduced us to the idea other resources are out there.

I feel as though too many characters in HotS, especially pure tanks, rely too much on Mana. Rage in WoW gave tanks reasons to stay in the fight and stay engaged. Tanks should always be more concerned about survivability of the engagement and pushing the offensive over weather or not they need more energy. Its those crafty casters who are looking for the perfect positioning through zoning that should be concerned weather or not they have the power to cast that really big spell.

There are several heroes, especially tanks, that rely too much on mana. A few choice tanks that could benefit from introducing different energy resources include but are not limited to: Muradin, Diablo, ETC and Johanna.

While I think characters like Morales were hurt terribly by the change from mana to energy; I believe its more of a balancing act then weather or not the change was bad.

What do you think?
Varian/Garrosh with mana... i don't know how to confuse WoW players more than this.
Imagine Muradin without mana issues and he would go from very strong to straight overpowered.
09/17/2018 10:10 PMPosted by Norber
Varian/Garrosh with mana... i don't know how to confuse WoW players more than this.


Especially when Varian says "I need more rage" when low on mana :-|

09/17/2018 10:14 PMPosted by Degaris
Imagine Muradin without mana issues and he would go from very strong to straight overpowered.


This really comes down to tweaking his design. I'm fairly confident that with numbers changes Muradin can be tuned to the point that he could use another resource. The experience of being out of mana on Muradin is really frustrating.

That being said, I'm not sure Rage would feel right for Muradin specifically. He's not technically a Warrior. He's a thane. I've often thought that his Thunderclap should be free and act as a resource generator that empowers his other abilities. That would mean he wouldn't have an actual resource outside of cooldowns but would have to work to maintain the strength of his other abilities.
Muradin is based off of the WC3 heroes, and I don't think they used rage back then. So mana feels proper for him IMO.

Now, varian and Garrosh? Yeah, those two are explicitly WOW warriors, so they should be true to wow.
09/17/2018 11:01 PMPosted by aleksandor
Muradin is based off of the WC3 heroes, and I don't think they used rage back then. So mana feels proper for him IMO.

Now, varian and Garrosh? Yeah, those two are explicitly WOW warriors, so they should be true to wow.


How many heroes are based on Warcraft 3 heroes that barely resemble where they came from now? Heck, Kharazim barely feels like a Monk from Diablo 3.
I do think resource management is important, and that some more personalized resources/resource managemant systems for some heroes that use plain mana might be interesting.

I propose both Li-Ming and Alarak to have a scaled Ego-bar for some effect (scaled because a 1:1 representation would need to be the size of a moon at least).
Mana management was always great measure of skill, very sad to see it gone from most new heroes. That being said I do like alternatives to mana. I absolutely hate it when hero is given mana bar but they never run any mana problems, might as well do it like Fenix then and have no bar at all and balance around that.
I agree that managing a resourse can be a fun mechanic. I love whitemane for that reason. Spamming comes at a high cost so she needs to reserve herself.

In saying that, map uptime is an important part of balance. Muradin has crazy high health regen. Without a mana bar, he would be on the map all the time with no need to hearth making him a much stronger hero.

Blaze and yrel are strong solo laners. In the latest patch they increased their mana costs as a way to reduce their early game power. An interesting but important knob to tune.
I was always disappointed valla doesn't use some sort of hatred meter instead of mana. And blaze doesn't use fuel.
Just about every MOBA (and other games) starts with mana as a common resource, then they get creative with better alternatives and people start to complain about old mana heroes. So then they start making heroes, who use mana, practically never running out of mana which starts to make mana pointless.

No Moba seems to learn that lesson from the previous ones.
09/18/2018 08:42 AMPosted by happyscrub
So then they start making heroes, who use mana, practically never running out of mana which starts to make mana pointless.

In which case they later on just increase the mana costs. See blaze and yrel.
With that:
Mephisto is quite heavy on mana if you dont properly manage it. I have made plenty of mistakes which caused me to run out of mana when i should have (because i was unable to cast the souls which at that point would have guaranteed a kill)
Whitemane depending on the build can be also quite mana heavy. You cant infinitely heal people.
Deckard can spam potions, but it also quickly depletes his mana.

Thats 3 out of the last 8 heroes who can definitely get into mana issues if misused, and 2 heroes are being changed to become more mana heavy, only 1 doesnt use mana, and of maiev i have no clue wether she has mana problems, and from my experience hanzo is quite safe in mana usage (just like whitemane), but he still cant blindly spam, although i dont often see a hanzo spam that much in the first place.

I think the new heroes are generaly well balanced regarding mana. Its more often the classic heroes that do not have mana problems as much. Sure, some drain mana at an excessive speed, but some rarely ever would run out of mana unless they kept spamming their abilities in a long teamfight.
And also, most new heroes still use a mana bar, and at least half of them are heroes that quite easily can run out of mana.
Mana actually IS a problem
For bronze players ofc
For those who dont hearth back when low on health yes health
The reason u dont see that u need resource management is becuz u hearth back regularly so u dont need mana management but that's not true for weak or newer players
Yet again I agree that some heroes have excessive mana pool and that's good becuz some heroes are hard enough adding mana management or another resource just makes them harder and exclusive to higher ranks
Few high skill demand heroes are good but too many of them causes ppl leave the game
If the resource being changed from Mana to something else gives the resource a different mechanic ie Valeera, and Sonya then by all means use a different name. But if you get a hero like blaze it he uses fuel instead of Mana but it functions exactly the same, what's the point?

I personally feel that if a hero gets 70% or more of the damage coming from abilities, then by all means have Mana management. If the hero is a support have Mana. However if the hero is like Hammer, tracer, Illidan, Valla, or any other AA hero, Mana should not be present, just gate the abilities by cool downs. If the hero is a tank gate by cool downs not by Mana.
Only warriors and select assassins that use mana have mana issues. [Play Arthas or Nova and be amazed at how much mana you don't have for many levels of play.]

All the mages enjoy unlimited mana availability. They don't know what the "B" key does anymore. So yea, mana has been made meaningless for them.

Same for specialists. Nazeebo and Zagara can go all day in lane without need to take a "B".

The mana equation needs a serious visit.
09/18/2018 12:08 AMPosted by Lighthammer
09/17/2018 11:01 PMPosted by aleksandor
Muradin is based off of the WC3 heroes, and I don't think they used rage back then. So mana feels proper for him IMO.

Now, varian and Garrosh? Yeah, those two are explicitly WOW warriors, so they should be true to wow.


How many heroes are based on Warcraft 3 heroes that barely resemble where they came from now? Heck, Kharazim barely feels like a Monk from Diablo 3.


That may be true, but its something that should be strove AGAINST: It has happened, but that doesn't mean it was a good thing or should KEEP happening. karazhim was blatantly a "We need a support, screw his original concept" situation, which goes against everything the core of HOTS promises (I.E., play your favorite characters from Blizzard lore, which, by its very nature, neccessitates trying to make characters true to who they are).

09/18/2018 08:42 AMPosted by happyscrub
Just about every MOBA (and other games) starts with mana as a common resource, then they get creative with better alternatives and people start to complain about old mana heroes. So then they start making heroes, who use mana, practically never running out of mana which starts to make mana pointless.

No Moba seems to learn that lesson from the previous ones.


Sadly, this is a symptom of the monetary nature of MOBAS, which Is hard to get rid of as businesses are always pressed to focus on the short term more than long term.

Mobas subsist generally on selling new heroes, so they want to make sure their new heroes are viewed as "fun" by players so they'll buy them, not neccessarily how they affect game balance or whatnot.

Its like candy: Infinite mana is sweet and instantly enjoyable because people can then spam all their attacks without care, which entices people to buy these heroes, so its tempting for the businesses to just start handing it out non-stop to keep new heroes being bought up.
But just like a diet full of nothing but candy, its poison to the body if not moderated.
Mana also is a resource that cant really be played around by the enemy except for early game offlane fights, and that largely depends on your character. I wonder if it could create more complexity to introduce mana drain and mana burn aspects. Most heroes with mana only have 500 (+10 per level) and theres very few heroes that give mana.
09/18/2018 09:42 AMPosted by Werbs713
If the resource being changed from Mana to something else gives the resource a different mechanic ie Valeera, and Sonya then by all means use a different name. But if you get a hero like blaze it he uses fuel instead of Mana but it functions exactly the same, what's the point?


I'm totally against changing the resource name for name sake. If it looks like mana and acts like mana it should be called mana.

That being said, I think many heroes have the potential to use a different host of resources to make their game play more interesting.

Blaze, for instance, I've often also thought could use Oil or Gas as a resource, but I've never got into suggesting it because I can't think of a really eloquent way he would refill it other then the traditional ways you get mana back.

Gazlowe, however, would make sense to give him electricity as his resource along with a gear system. Gears could be used 1 per cast of turrets or bombs. Units attacked by turrets or Gazlowe could generate electricity to be used for his beam. With that sort of limiting factor imposed on that skill, we could probably see Gazlowe being allowed to make more impactful plays by letting his lazer do a lot more damage and not have so much rampup time.

Mind you all, this is just an off-the-cuff idea that's probably not well fleshed out.

There's a ton of other heroes that I think would be much more interesting if different resources were considered.

This isn't just a "I want rage on warriors" kind of thread, this is exploring all the interesting oddities we could be seeing that would make this game much more interesting.
"You have no mana."
09/18/2018 08:42 AMPosted by happyscrub
So then they start making heroes, who use mana, practically never running out of mana which starts to make mana pointless.

They have a few strong solutions for that though.
Globes, Wells, mana talents.
Rather than make heroes not run out of mana, they could make it more important to grab those globes. You run the risk of the losing team not being able to properly fight back, but at the same time there's some room for strategically out playing the other team beyond just landing the kill spells.

09/18/2018 09:47 AMPosted by Firefly63
Play Arthas

Gotta spam that trait and remember you can turn off Tempest.

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